another forums that comment on RSAF
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The second batch of 12 have no longbows because they dont need it.Originally posted by MinisterOfDefence:n not forgetting the apache attack helicopters..but a recent news i read said tt singapore's second order of 12 apaches will not b equip wif the highly sophisticated longbow detection or wat system lar.....doesn't tt reduce our capabilities..but the only valid reason 4 malaysia 2 start an arms race 4 the air force is if singapore manage 2 buy comanches..n tt is a big IF.but i heard is exclusive 4 the US...i wonder when singapore technologies n defence scientist will concentrate on our own developments of steakth n strenghs capabilities...any ideas??
yah yah yah... i know... u people think i am pro singapore blah blah blah.
the truth is, the original 8 apache with longbow can interlink the information gathered from the longbow with other apaches with no longbows real time.
In short, each apache section of say 3 to 5 gunship only require one of them to have the longbow and they will all function, fight and kill as if all of them is carrying longbow. -
Therefore, the Apaches without the longbow would be the firing platform while the Longbow capable apaches will be guiding the hellfires in. =P
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maybe I should rephrase what I said. I dun mean that we should stop buying weapons to defend, sheesh! >
The way you put it it's like as if I'm anti-SAF and I'm saying that we dun need an SAF. Somemore you still play with my nick, sacastic sia!........ask you all, have you all entered NS??
What I mean is that all the stuff you guys mentioned are a bit of an overkill, like the Aircraft Carrier and those Commanche gunships. There's already a minor arms race going on here. We introduce Bionix, they buy 300+ IFVs. We introduce F-16, they thinking of buying SU fighters. We introduce FH Howitzers, They also just accquired 40KM capable howitzers. We buy Spike, They thinking of getting a new ATGM. We upgrade Hawkeye, they developing their own AWACS. They got AUG, we developed SAR-21. It just never ends and there will be more in the future.......aiyah!
The number or size of the weapons are only part of the whole military organization. The people are the important ones. We've got 300 IFVs in our stock and 300+ coming up. But We got only 200+ competent VCs, 100+ crash-course VCs, the rest cao-keng.....also back to square one. The vessel tech eng is a gunner at the same time due to lack of personnel. The Tank Gunner report sick. APC section got two ATT.B........so in the end how many people fight? How many already pissed in their pants? If we don't change the mentality of our youngsters, our nation will suffer.
How we change the mindset of our youngsters if their parents are already spoiling them and think negatively about NS? The worst things is most of these people the either the rich types, or the very poor types........hmmmmm.. You just look at the papers on NS taking into consideration for admission to Local U, all the rich pple make noise. Of course word, war come they fly off to other place loh, no war they CBCB. Before those rich ppl scold, I'm not refering to ALL RICH pple, only those who spolit the market.
I think the main prob now is the change the mindset of the people about NS and defence. So dun even talk about getting bigger stuff. No better ppl also the same. only waste money and space.
There's a difference between modernizing a force and building up a force. SAF is juz mordernizing, They are currently upgrading stuff and making they better or replacing them, not increasing their numbers. Yes, there's always a slight increase but not up to the extend that It's significant.
Stop the WaR-MONGING!!!!!!
Am I ranting sense? o_O ?? -
I think most people dont like war, in fact... nobody except those pushing the soldiers around behind the front.Originally posted by Silenthunter:maybe I should rephrase what I said. I dun mean that we should stop buying weapons to defend, sheesh! > The way you put it it's like as if I'm anti-SAF and I'm saying that we dun need an SAF. Somemore you still play with my nick, sacastic sia!........ask you all, have you all entered NS??
What I mean is that all the stuff you guys mentioned are a bit of an overkill, like the Aircraft Carrier and those Commanche gunships. There's already a minor arms race going on here. We introduce Bionix, they buy 300+ IFVs. We introduce F-16, they thinking of buying SU fighters. We introduce FH Howitzers, They also just accquired 40KM capable howitzers. We buy Spike, They thinking of getting a new ATGM. We upgrade Hawkeye, they developing their own AWACS. They got AUG, we developed SAR-21. It just never ends and there will be more in the future.......aiyah!
The number or size of the weapons are only part of the whole military organization. The people are the important ones. We've got 300 IFVs in our stock and 300+ coming up. But We got only 200+ competent VCs, 100+ crash-course VCs, the rest cao-keng.....also back to square one. The vessel tech eng is a gunner at the same time due to lack of personnel. The Tank Gunner report sick. APC section got two ATT.B........so in the end how many people fight? How many already pissed in their pants? If we don't change the mentality of our youngsters, our nation will suffer.
How we change the mindset of our youngsters if their parents are already spoiling them and think negatively about NS? The worst things is most of these people the either the rich types, or the very poor types........hmmmmm.. You just look at the papers on NS taking into consideration for admission to Local U, all the rich pple make noise. Of course word, war come they fly off to other place loh, no war they CBCB. Before those rich ppl scold, I'm not refering to ALL RICH pple, only those who spolit the market.
I think the main prob now is the change the mindset of the people about NS and defence. So dun even talk about getting bigger stuff. No better ppl also the same. only waste money and space.
There's a difference between modernizing a force and building up a force. SAF is juz mordernizing, They are currently upgrading stuff and making they better or replacing them, not increasing their numbers. Yes, there's always a slight increase but not up to the extend that It's significant.
Stop the WaR-MONGING!!!!!!
Am I ranting sense? o_O ??
the mentality wont go away... reason being that the govt has been too materialistic to begin with... there is a lack of national affection, loyalty and bonding when the country is run by ruthless economist civil servant out to squeeze the last value out of a dollar.
In fact... the question is; what is there in singapore that is of value for us to defend??
the airport?? the harbour?? the condo?? geez.... last i check... the govt was so busy shaking the hands of foreign talents... while poor little me have to wait my turn just to see my local MPs!
All the govt has in calling singaporeans to defend singapore are no more then empty words and stupid songs on national days. come economic crisis...we are expected to live or die by our choice.
JUST look at the latest govt offical response to a plea for financial assistance to help citizens suffering from HIV to get cheaper drug...
the way that the official puts it...those singaporeans are gonna die eventually with or without the drugs... so in view of the limited resouces... let them die loh! shocking right?? as if those people in MOH will never die.
we all will eventually die... the drug and all the medicine is to prolong our life until we meet the inevitable end. if people who have a flu can be entitle to medical help, should not those with HIV as well be entitiled to some form of assitance??? or in view of the expensive drug cost... some additional assistance would definitely be appreciated.
i wonder if i should die in the war for singapore... what would the govt do to help my family?? probably.... NOTHING!!!
so given the choices... many singaporeans obviously are not so stupid to chiong unless they first see all the MPs and cabinet ministers chiong first.
should not leaders led by example?? -
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tripwire:
[B]
I think most people dont like war, in fact... nobody except those pushing the soldiers around behind the front.
the mentality wont go away... reason being that the govt has been too materialistic to begin with... there is a lack of national affection, loyalty and bonding when the country is run by ruthless economist civil servant out to squeeze the last value out of a dollar.
In fact... the question is; what is there in singapore that is of value for us to defend??
the airport?? the harbour?? the condo?? geez.... last i check... the govt was so busy shaking the hands of foreign talents... while poor little me have to wait my turn just to see my local MPs!
All the govt has in calling singaporeans to defend singapore are no more then empty words and stupid songs on national days. come economic crisis...we are expected to live or die by our choice.
JUST look at the latest govt offical response to a plea for financial assistance to help citizens suffering from HIV to get cheaper drug...
the way that the official puts it...those singaporeans are gonna die eventually with or without the drugs... so in view of the limited resouces... let them die loh! shocking right?? as if those people in MOH will never die.
we all will eventually die... the drug and all the medicine is to prolong our life until we meet the inevitable end. if people who have a flu can be entitle to medical help, should not those with HIV as well be entitiled to some form of assitance??? or in view of the expensive drug cost... some additional assistance would definitely be appreciated.
i wonder if i should die in the war for singapore... what would the govt do to help my family?? probably.... NOTHING!!!
so given the choices... many singaporeans obviously are not so stupid to chiong unless they first see all the MPs and cabinet ministers chiong first.
Come on lar. Minister chiong? Minister lead as examples? you know what you talking about? If a few ministers die at the battlefront, who is going to do their job after the war, After the war, Singapore may fall into a state of despair and problems and no one can perform the job of that minister better than the minister himself!
I would rather die for my country, let those people up there "PUSH" me around behind the front and die. I take it as dying for my country, my family friends and my properties. Don't you agree. When you are able to defend your country successfully, you are protecting your family and properties at the same time. This is for those who take NS and defending their country as something that they can't escape, something like " Bo PIan lor" as i'm born in Singapore.
yes. There may be a few things that the government done that you people don't like but do you have the capability to run a country smoothly and properly? there are bound to be some minor problems rite. I'm not saying this directly towards Tripwire as i kind of respect your views in military issues.
And please, Majulah Singapura and other Singapore songs are not stupid. -
eh.... i seriously dont think MPs and ministers are that important, eversince i started working... i found that the highest management is usually the most expendable.Originally posted by Patriotic Tim:[QUOTE]Originally posted by tripwire:
[B]
I think most people dont like war, in fact... nobody except those pushing the soldiers around behind the front.
the mentality wont go away... reason being that the govt has been too materialistic to begin with... there is a lack of national affection, loyalty and bonding when the country is run by ruthless economist civil servant out to squeeze the last value out of a dollar.
In fact... the question is; what is there in singapore that is of value for us to defend??
the airport?? the harbour?? the condo?? geez.... last i check... the govt was so busy shaking the hands of foreign talents... while poor little me have to wait my turn just to see my local MPs!
All the govt has in calling singaporeans to defend singapore are no more then empty words and stupid songs on national days. come economic crisis...we are expected to live or die by our choice.
JUST look at the latest govt offical response to a plea for financial assistance to help citizens suffering from HIV to get cheaper drug...
the way that the official puts it...those singaporeans are gonna die eventually with or without the drugs... so in view of the limited resouces... let them die loh! shocking right?? as if those people in MOH will never die.
we all will eventually die... the drug and all the medicine is to prolong our life until we meet the inevitable end. if people who have a flu can be entitle to medical help, should not those with HIV as well be entitiled to some form of assitance??? or in view of the expensive drug cost... some additional assistance would definitely be appreciated.
i wonder if i should die in the war for singapore... what would the govt do to help my family?? probably.... NOTHING!!!
so given the choices... many singaporeans obviously are not so stupid to chiong unless they first see all the MPs and cabinet ministers chiong first.
Come on lar. Minister chiong? Minister lead as examples? you know what you talking about? If a few ministers die at the battlefront, who is going to do their job after the war, After the war, Singapore may fall into a state of despair and problems and no one can perform the job of that minister better than the minister himself!
I would rather die for my country, let those people up there "PUSH" me around behind the front and die. I take it as dying for my country, my family friends and my properties. Don't you agree. When you are able to defend your country successfully, you are protecting your family and properties at the same time. This is for those who take NS and defending their country as something that they can't escape, something like " Bo PIan lor" as i'm born in Singapore.
yes. There may be a few things that the government done that you people don't like but do you have the capability to run a country smoothly and properly? there are bound to be some minor problems rite. I'm not saying this directly towards Tripwire as i kind of respect your views in military issues.
And please, Majulah Singapura and other Singapore songs are not stupid.
The real working of the govt and its sprawling instituition is in the hand of the civil servants like those PERMANENT secretaries. they the real pushers behind the door.
The Ministers and MPs are elected as the people's representative and thus a keeper of authorisation so to speak. BUT seriously... how many of you think that admiral TEO who have never studied medicine is in any position to run the MOH given the fact that his limited knowledge would effectively ends up he being managed by MOH P.S. instead of the other way round.
How many of you really think it is possible for Richard hoo to come out with a budget on his own?? if Richard have to managed a ministery, a big one at that... logic would have it that it would then be impossible for his to devote any time to go through the details of the budgets after spending a huge chunk of his time directing the show at MOF.
What about tony tan and all the other ministers in parliament... are they being managed and manipulated by the huge number of civil servants in the various ministry or are they really manageing anybody??
So what if the ministers died or go on long holiday?? the Permanent secretary will still keep the show running. -
My 2 cents. No I have not done NS yet, but I like to keep ahead regarding military issues. I believe that if there is gonna be a war, information is ammunition.
True, our procurement and development advanced weaponry will start an arms race. But, even if we were to stop modernizing, will our neighbours see that as a sign of goodwill or a sign of weakness? What makes you think they will stop modernizing? It is unfortunate, but this the way the world works. TiT for Tat or, You scratch my back and i scratch yours. Diplomacy is the key to preventing an arms race from erupting into a war. Arms race can be seen as "joint military development" or a plain arms race, this depends on diplomacy and bilateral ties. So far, Singapore has done its part in extending a warm hand of friendship, but particular regional neighbours have not returned their hand in a similar fashion. Instead they point fingers criticizing everything. Whats their motive? To divert their public attention or what? Nobody knows.
The truth is, if neighbours are not gonna smile and shake your hand, better make sure your pistol is locked and loaded. You never know when you're gonna need it. To halt or slowdown modernization in fear of starting an arms race is foolish and suicide. Sure, one should not develop a weapon too powerful that it can lead to a Major arms problem, but Singapore is just purchasing according to her own needs as strategic planners map out potential threats. Why would Singapore purchase potentially offensive weapon such as attack helicopters? These fast riding weapons have roles that allow it to take out long ranged weapons such as howitzers while staying out of SAM range or cover. "He who breaks his opponent's weapons may strike with impunity." Sun Tzu art of war. And we all know the best defense is a better offense.
I don't know about the rest of you. I'm not financially well off, and I cannot leave the country in times of crises. As much as I have considered retiring to Australia, that would probably in the last days of my life. And I am sure there will be many others like me, we have no where to go. Singapore is gonna be our home, we are gonna live here and die here if there is gonna be a war.
Sure we do not have much to defend. Condos are not economic assets, neither is an airport worth human lives. I am sure we had MUCH less to defend in 1942, condos sure are worth more than kampongs, and Changi Airport worth more than the lousy RAF strips. If the volunteer corps saw worth in laying their lives for their kampongs and strips, I don't see why we will not lay down ours for our Changi Airport and Condos. The Foreign forces based in singapore in 1942 saw them as mere worthless infrastructure. Do we, who live in Singapore see the toils of our past generation as worthless infrastructures too? Singaporeans are becoming more materialistic, many will answer Yes.
Look @ the native americans, the caucasians stripped their land, many of them have lost their own culture. The Jews attacked lynched and many fled, if not for the formation of Israel, would they still have their culture today? Whats the difference? The native americans could not defend themselves, while the Jews held off the Ragheads during the Yom Kippur. If they fall, they will be gone.
If Singapore loses, gone will be our hardwork. Our IT infrastructure, our culture, our way of living, our Singlish, our multi-racial society. It maybe replaced by one that regards 1 race superior over the others. To those who can leave the country in a Safe 747 to a far off land, they won't care. Those of us who cannot leave, it will mean the world to us.
Leaders should lead by example, but they don't have to foolishly charge into a fray to get themselves killed while accomplishing nothing. Such people will not even fit to be leaders. Leaders will lead by setting an example to resist, to inspire the people and to instill the essence of courage. And when necessary, pick up a rifle and pull the trigger. If there is such a fine leader, he should not die, cos if he does, hope will be lost.
I may not have sang Majulah Singapura since I left secondary school. But when i hear it @ 6am on the radio, I'm glad. Hell, at least its our anthem. -
beautiful words.... but still only words.Originally posted by Shotgun:My 2 cents. No I have not done NS yet, but I like to keep ahead regarding military issues. I believe that if there is gonna be a war, information is ammunition.
True, our procurement and development advanced weaponry will start an arms race. But, even if we were to stop modernizing, will our neighbours see that as a sign of goodwill or a sign of weakness? What makes you think they will stop modernizing? It is unfortunate, but this the way the world works. TiT for Tat or, You scratch my back and i scratch yours. Diplomacy is the key to preventing an arms race from erupting into a war. Arms race can be seen as "joint military development" or a plain arms race, this depends on diplomacy and bilateral ties. So far, Singapore has done its part in extending a warm hand of friendship, but particular regional neighbours have not returned their hand in a similar fashion. Instead they point fingers criticizing everything. Whats their motive? To divert their public attention or what? Nobody knows.
The truth is, if neighbours are not gonna smile and shake your hand, better make sure your pistol is locked and loaded. You never know when you're gonna need it. To halt or slowdown modernization in fear of starting an arms race is foolish and suicide. Sure, one should not develop a weapon too powerful that it can lead to a Major arms problem, but Singapore is just purchasing according to her own needs as strategic planners map out potential threats. Why would Singapore purchase potentially offensive weapon such as attack helicopters? These fast riding weapons have roles that allow it to take out long ranged weapons such as howitzers while staying out of SAM range or cover. "He who breaks his opponent's weapons may strike with impunity." Sun Tzu art of war. And we all know the best defense is a better offense.
I don't know about the rest of you. I'm not financially well off, and I cannot leave the country in times of crises. As much as I have considered retiring to Australia, that would probably in the last days of my life. And I am sure there will be many others like me, we have no where to go. Singapore is gonna be our home, we are gonna live here and die here if there is gonna be a war.
Sure we do not have much to defend. Condos are not economic assets, neither is an airport worth human lives. I am sure we had MUCH less to defend in 1942, condos sure are worth more than kampongs, and Changi Airport worth more than the lousy RAF strips. If the volunteer corps saw worth in laying their lives for their kampongs and strips, I don't see why we will not lay down ours for our Changi Airport and Condos. The Foreign forces based in singapore in 1942 saw them as mere worthless infrastructure. Do we, who live in Singapore see the toils of our past generation as worthless infrastructures too? Singaporeans are becoming more materialistic, many will answer Yes.
Look @ the native americans, the caucasians stripped their land, many of them have lost their own culture. The Jews attacked lynched and many fled, if not for the formation of Israel, would they still have their culture today? Whats the difference? The native americans could not defend themselves, while the Jews held off the Ragheads during the Yom Kippur. If they fall, they will be gone.
If Singapore loses, gone will be our hardwork. Our IT infrastructure, our culture, our way of living, our Singlish, our multi-racial society. It maybe replaced by one that regards 1 race superior over the others. To those who can leave the country in a Safe 747 to a far off land, they won't care. Those of us who cannot leave, it will mean the world to us.
Leaders should lead by example, but they don't have to foolishly charge into a fray to get themselves killed while accomplishing nothing. Such people will not even fit to be leaders. Leaders will lead by setting an example to resist, to inspire the people and to instill the essence of courage. And when necessary, pick up a rifle and pull the trigger. If there is such a fine leader, he should not die, cos if he does, hope will be lost.
I may not have sang Majulah Singapura since I left secondary school. But when i hear it @ 6am on the radio, I'm glad. Hell, at least its our anthem.
In fact... u pointed out the very problem of singapore... we fight, not because we feel it is our duty to fight a.k.a. loyalty, courage and patriotism. BUT we fight because we have no other alternatives a.k.a. out of desperation, fear and coercion.
in a country where the govt would not pull out an extra buck to alleviate the difficulties of its own citizens like those in destitude or suffering from HIV and other diseases.... it makes one feel the cruel efficiency of a high power CPU... a heartless one.
come war and if i should lay my life for the country... will the country remember my sacrifice and do all it can to support the family i left behind.... OR will the country treats me just as another number in the registry of death and continue to work with cold harsh efficiency and my family forced to subsist as best they could?
Remember my dear fellow countrymen... the govt never promised to fend for your family should u die in service of the nation BUT we as Citizens are expected to die for the country if need be.
Nevertheless... having seen how the govt deals with foreign talents with wide open arms and how quick the govt has been in discarding fellow singaporeans suffering from AIDs.... what is there worth defending?? the land, the buildings, the cars, the airport and the land we stand on... .... what are these to a dead man?
the govt stand on HIV awakens me... the govt only value us as long as we can contribute to the economy... and when we cant or became a burden..... we can only hope for divine deliverance.. A gracious singapore indeed, the PM called... nobody seems to be listening in the civil service.
Better to run away and live then to die in war for the country... as long as u live and can contribute to the rebuilding of singapore. i believe the govt would still welcome u with open arms, deserters or not. On the other hand... if you should become handicapped in war... pray the govt would have enough compassion to grant u a measly allowance like NSF for u to just get by.
Secondly... there are good leaders no doubt... but as humans with limited capacity and capability... it is obvious... that under duress... they could end up being managed by those that they were supposed to be managing OR they would end up doing things wrong and creates havoc if they force their wills upon their subordinate despite their deficiency in experience, knowledge and qualification to the problems faced. -
Nobody's perfect. We live in a materialistic world. Sometimes I sympathize the HIV patients, yet they are terminally ill, and there is still no cure to their sickness. Its sad to see the government abandoning them, but yet not much can be done.
"Gone but never forgotten." These words only apply in propaganda. Grunts usually die, and they won't be remembered. Surely not everyman who dies by a bullet will be recalled as a war hero. Rather it is those that have done their deeds against all odds, and in circumstances which can never be spoken. These people will have taken part in missions that no one have heard, and their existance denied. To die for a reason, he/she will have the honor alone. A glory that many will forget. This only serves to remind us how sad Wars are.
Nevertheless, we defend cos we have nowhere else to go. But I swear, I will fight and kill anybody who dares to touch my computer... hehe. Sometimes its not the infrastructure that we are defending, rather our loved ones. I do not consider soldiers as the protectors of the government, but the protectors of the citizens. -
the govt held our family hostage and force us to fight for them.... this is how i see it.... why cant they show us a little more concern, grace, compassion and understanding?? the govt is detached from the society....Originally posted by Shotgun:Nobody's perfect. We live in a materialistic world. Sometimes I sympathize the HIV patients, yet they are terminally ill, and there is still no cure to their sickness. Its sad to see the government abandoning them, but yet not much can be done.
* ... to see the govt abandoning the very citizen (when they are terminally illed) who elected them into office..... its not merely a sad event... ITs shocking and unbelievable! If the govt can abandon them when they are no longer useful to the nation... i fear the day will come when i too become useless to the govt when i become old or sick, where will i go then??
*HIV has no cure.. this i know.. BUT there are drugs out there (yes.. its expensive) that can prolong their life for as much as 10 years!! who can tell if during the next 10 years.. a breakthrough could see the HIV citizen live to old age even if a cure cannot be obtained??
*and even if they should die eventually... they will be grateful to the govt and the people of singapore.
*Not only that... if the citizens of singapore see how much the govt cares for those who are dying, it will move the rest of us to love our govt and fight to the death to defend them...knowing that the govt will not let our family falter into misery even if we should die for the nation.
* The fact of the matter is that we will all eventually die... drugs and medicines are here merely to prolong our life and delay the inevitable end of all that lives!... no one lives forever...
*To deny the HIV patient the drugs they need to prolong their life is like denying u or me the antibiotics to kill the bacteria which infected us throughout our lives and let us die of an infection early in life.
*IN fact... there are many diseases in this world that has no cure... like Cancers... so what do we do?? send all these people to a home and wait for death??
*if that is what the govt feels... then they should have let SM LKY to die of heart attack instead of sending him for bypass surgery... not to mention DPM LSL who has cancer a few years back... but then... the best team of doctor's were formed to provide a cure for them..... compare to the snobbish attitude of the MOH people with regard to poor singapore citizens.... shessh.... enough said.
"Gone but never forgotten." These words only apply in propaganda. Grunts usually die, and they won't be remembered. Surely not everyman who dies by a bullet will be recalled as a war hero. Rather it is those that have done their deeds against all odds, and in circumstances which can never be spoken. These people will have taken part in missions that no one have heard, and their existance denied. To die for a reason, he/she will have the honor alone. A glory that many will forget. This only serves to remind us how sad Wars are.
Nevertheless, we defend cos we have nowhere else to go. But I swear, I will fight and kill anybody who dares to touch my computer... hehe. Sometimes its not the infrastructure that we are defending, rather our loved ones. I do not consider soldiers as the protectors of the government, but the protectors of the citizens.
As far as i see it... our govt has FAILED... FAILED terribly in galvanising the loyalty of the citizens to its goals and visions... the govt has failed to win the hearts and mind of the people.... one day.... the people will abandon them. -
They have not failed... they have pretty much succeeded in blinding the public.
In anycase, I don't feel the Govt is denying these people treatment. Whether the Govt helps or not, these people will still have the option of seeking further treatment. The number of HIV victims are indeed growing in numbers, and I sympathise that its very hard to take care of all of them.
In anycase, the Govt doesnt help in providing treatment for other people stricken by various diseases either. So HIV patients are not alone. -
I don't know much about the HIV thing, but if the government really abandoned them, is is because there is really nothing they can do? Can anything be done to save those HIV ppl? At least the government tried their best in helping those who lost their job by sending them to courses and bla bla so as to look for better or other jobs. Well, you can take it that you are defending your loved ones rite?Originally posted by Shotgun:They have not failed... they have pretty much succeeded in blinding the public.
In anycase, I don't feel the Govt is denying these people treatment. Whether the Govt helps or not, these people will still have the option of seeking further treatment. The number of HIV victims are indeed growing in numbers, and I sympathise that its very hard to take care of all of them.
In anycase, the Govt doesnt help in providing treatment for other people stricken by various diseases either. So HIV patients are not alone. -
a govt that does not help its own citizen in times of need..... is such a govt worth defending?? is such the govt we want?? i wonder... where did we go wrong?? or what the hell is wrong with our govt??Originally posted by Shotgun:They have not failed... they have pretty much succeeded in blinding the public.
In anycase, I don't feel the Govt is denying these people treatment. Whether the Govt helps or not, these people will still have the option of seeking further treatment. The number of HIV victims are indeed growing in numbers, and I sympathise that its very hard to take care of all of them.
In anycase, the Govt doesnt help in providing treatment for other people stricken by various diseases either. So HIV patients are not alone.
if money, cost and benefit analysis are the basis of our their consideration in making a decision on who to help or what to do.... then... i wanna ask how much is the govt willing to pay for my service in NS and in defence of singapore... and if the pay dont measure up to my expectation... i will simply pack up and find another country that is willing to pay for my service. NO emotion attached,... dont hate me... i dont hate the country.. but neither do i love the govt.
Being an economist... i too knows cost benefit analysis, so i am just using the same method to make my own decision like the govt. -
HIV has no cure... and i am not defending my love one... no one in my family has AIDs or HIV and i pray no one ever will.Originally posted by Patriotic Tim:I don't know much about the HIV thing, but if the government really abandoned them, is is because there is really nothing they can do? Can anything be done to save those HIV ppl? At least the government tried their best in helping those who lost their job by sending them to courses and bla bla so as to look for better or other jobs. Well, you can take it that you are defending your loved ones rite?
Ironically... our govt can give financial AIDs to other country like training their officials, running training programme. give donations to countries hit by natural disasters and even offer 10 billion US dollar to indonesia during the crisis... BUT.... no money to help a few dozen or a hundred of local singaporean to get their needed drug.
Anyone still remember Mr. T. the poor HIV patient who have to end up sleeping in construction site, probably with no food or water and certainly no money to pay for his medicine.... where is the govt?? where are all the charity organisation?? where the hell is the MOH and the govt guarantee that no singaporean will be deny treatment even if they cannot pay.... all a bunch of... lies.
The truth is... if singaporeans are to die... please do not die infront of the govt, the govt will deeply appreciate if we all simply die in a mud hole and be done with it. -
Ironic isnt it..... we as a country can have laws that throw people into jail for ill-treating dogs and cats.... BUT no laws to throw heartless civil servants into the jail for denying (thereby ill-treating) a human his needed drug.
The cats and dogs are higher class citizen than us. -
There could be things, some kind hearted C.S had done for these poor souls. And had done their best to help these people. Or had the unfortunates rejected all helps themselves. As you know most of them are thrown out by their families. Let's face it, Aids patients will not be accepted into any society. As long as no cure are found.Originally posted by tripwire:Ironic isnt it..... we as a country can have laws that throw people into jail for ill-treating dogs and cats.... BUT no laws to throw heartless civil servants into the jail for denying (thereby ill-treating) a human his needed drug.
The cats and dogs are higher class citizen than us.
Can you identify any of the cold-blooded C.S? Maybe we could wakes the bastard up. Like injecting the virus in him
I believe our govt. is not a heartless one.
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last week... a certain madam wong from MOH certain seems cold-blooded to me in her reply from a plea for financial assistance to HIV patients. BUT i dont want her to be injected with HIV... its far too cruel a thing to do.Originally posted by hardware:There could be things, some kind hearted C.S had done for these poor souls. And had done their best to help these people. Or had the unfortunates rejected all helps themselves. As you know most of them are thrown out by their families. Let's face it, Aids patients will not be accepted into any society. As long as no cure are found.
Can you identify any of the cold-blooded C.S? Maybe we could wakes the bastard up. Like injecting the virus in him
I believe our govt. is not a heartless one.
cool
HIV has no cure.... neither does kidney failure.... yet NKF and the govt went around getting donation to help these people who obviously have no cure and those who does get a transplant would still eventually die of renal failure after 10 years or so... sigh.... even after a transplant... those patient would still have to take regular drugs like cyclosporine to prevent the body from rejecting the kidney... that drug aint cheap either...
Cant the govt spare a heart and help the HIV patient as well?? there are not many of them in singapore, certainly not as many as the many singaporeans suffering from renal failure or diabetes (who also have no cure).
....afterall....... they are singaporean.. HIV or not.....
If we start to act with prejudice against someone who has HIV.... will we next time turn our prejudice against other people who are either different from the main stream or suffering from other disease??
Our pledge.... Peace, progress, prosperity, equality and justice..... where is the equality that HIV patient deserve?? are they not citizen of singapore??... where is the justice?? what kind of progress is a society heading when it discard its fellow countrymen when they are sick??
Prosperity?? so prosperous we can give money to others but no money to give to our own fellow citizen in need.
Peace... remember the peace we enjoy... for part of that peace is also contributed by many of those who are now withering away from HIV... we... have the shamless face to take their contribution for granted while at the same time shunned them because of their sickness.
WE are BLIND and foolhardy... we all deserve to go to HELL. -
Cruel or not, if that bitch had rejected any plea from a unfortunate. Than she jolly well deserve to be a HIV patient too. We'll see if she will ask for help.
I sympathize these patients, but are there any other ways to help them? Even in US, HIV patients are not any better than those in Singapore.
There are many blacksheep in the govt. Takes time to wipe them off. Beside this PAP government, I don't see any oppositons could do a better job. -
I agree that all patients require some kinda funding. And it is rather f-cked up that people treat HIV patients so coldly. However, people raise funds for kidney patients because there is indeed a way of cure. A transplant... the funds i believe is to prolong the patient's life until transplant. HIV is different. The very essence in a body that fights off germs and disease is corrupted... and there is still no known cure. Perhaps the Govts, cold stand is that, since they are gonna die anyway, why fund their medication? It is lookin from a very materialistic way, but it is the way Singapore was forged. I believe it is a time for change, where they should increase funding for treatment, for all Singaporeans. If we can interest Frontline(channel
tv programme to make an episode about this, we might be able to help people realise the plight of HIV victims. -
One question, will people donate money to HIV's patients for their treatment. If there is a possibility, can we decide who to donate to? For example, those who got infected from their parents and through family member or from attacks by HIV carriers. And Not for those who had contacted Aids from prostitude, alot of 1 night stands and homos.Originally posted by Shotgun:I agree that all patients require some kinda funding. And it is rather f-cked up that people treat HIV patients so coldly. However, people raise funds for kidney patients because there is indeed a way of cure. A transplant... the funds i believe is to prolong the patient's life until transplant. HIV is different. The very essence in a body that fights off germs and disease is corrupted... and there is still no known cure. Perhaps the Govts, cold stand is that, since they are gonna die anyway, why fund their medication? It is lookin from a very materialistic way, but it is the way Singapore was forged. I believe it is a time for change, where they should increase funding for treatment, for all Singaporeans. If we can interest Frontline(channel tv programme to make an episode about this, we might be able to help people realise the plight of HIV victims.
This may sound cold-blooded but it would serve as a warning to the public. Therefore all donations will be given only to victims. -
I sincerely hope that the govt will try to help the less fortunate in singapore... not just the sick or terminally illed but likewise those who are at the bottom of the society.Originally posted by hardware:One question, will people donate money to HIV's patients for their treatment. If there is a possibility, can we decide who to donate to? For example, those who got infected from their parents and through family member or from attacks by HIV carriers. And Not for those who had contacted Aids from prostitude, alot of 1 night stands and homos.
This may sound cold-blooded but it would serve as a warning to the public. Therefore all donations will be given only to victims.
The govt should reach out to them and give them a helping hand... becos often.. many in destitude dont even know where to approach for help.
Sadly.. govt assistance for the poor seems miserable.. i believe many of u have read in the paper of govt grants to poor individuals worth merely a measly few hundred at the most... sad...
without care and concern... society will break apart and the pyschological impact on the rest of us to see the cold-hearted nature of the civil servants makes one become just as materialistic and uncaring...
HOW the hell the govt expect our social defence and pyschological defense to withstand the test of a crisis where every man will be left to fend for himself???
No point buiding a strong economic and military defence...because if the people lost heart in the country due to a breakdown in psychological and social defense... then obviously we are gonna loose any war that comes knocking on our door.
Among the 5 defence of total defence... pyschological and social defence must come first and foremost... else though we may have lots of weapons and high tech stuffs to toy around... we will continue to hear people dissenting about the purpose of NS and whether any singaporean would stay to fight.
i believe sun tzu say something about winning the hearts of the people and uniting the minds of the populace before going to war. sadly... our govt seems to flop pretty bad with respect to this.
IF the people of singapore cannot feel a common sense of unity.... then... we are gonna loose the war. at this point... the people of singapore are little more then a pile of scattered sand... -
err.. this HIV thing seems to be a deviati0n from the t0pic.Maybe I sh0uld p0st a new t0pic on whether hiv patients sh0uld be treated this way 0r n0t
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wad is this that u all complained about!!!!!!where do you all haf ur education...tt is singaporean nowadays. the govt is a job only 4 brave ppl.in fact i take this govt ppl as heroes hu are constantly criticised in wadeva they do. if sum of u are clever enuff out there...go n find a cure 4 AIDS n the HIV virus.if sum of u are brave enuff out there,go sent ur children 2 a malaysian skool.if sum of u are daring out there,go n live in malysia.HECK!!!! u are all lucky tt our govt DO haf the citizens interest at heart.compare our govt wif those in the region...do u c ppl in singapore constantly kick out of university bcoz there is a racial quota?do u c singaporean children been deprived of education...sent ur children 2 malaysian skool n u are forced 2 learn malay....
DAMN IT!!!!! be thankful u are here!!!at least our hospital service are good n our defence are capabled. -
think about it a different way. If the govt of singapore does not take care of its own people. Who is gonna? THrow yourself into the shoes of those who are terminally ill and think.
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Just becos there are worst places around us then singapore... that does not mean we should laid back and accept the system without question or demand for further improvement.Originally posted by MinisterOfDefence:wad is this that u all complained about!!!!!!where do you all haf ur education...tt is singaporean nowadays. the govt is a job only 4 brave ppl.in fact i take this govt ppl as heroes hu are constantly criticised in wadeva they do. if sum of u are clever enuff out there...go n find a cure 4 AIDS n the HIV virus.if sum of u are brave enuff out there,go sent ur children 2 a malaysian skool.if sum of u are daring out there,go n live in malysia.HECK!!!! u are all lucky tt our govt DO haf the citizens interest at heart.compare our govt wif those in the region...do u c ppl in singapore constantly kick out of university bcoz there is a racial quota?do u c singaporean children been deprived of education...sent ur children 2 malaysian skool n u are forced 2 learn malay....
DAMN IT!!!!! be thankful u are here!!!at least our hospital service are good n our defence are capabled.
The govt of singapore is rated as the most efficient and most clean... but with changing times and changing mindset.... the demands too will change.
The govt must continually improve on its shortcomings and reinforce its strong points... IF the govt just laid back and say... there is no need to improve further.. then one day we will find ourselves not so well off.
And though malaysia may not be better then singapore.. there are strong points too in malaysia over singapore... first and foremost, i believe many malaysians will fight to save their country.. not much hope seeing that here in singapore if we continue to have bureaucrates running the shows instead of technocrats.
JUST look at how badly we lost against manchester united in the soccer match.. this is the team that is supposed to get singapore into the world cup!! and look at how they pat each others back when we lost 1 to 8!! instead of saying we lost more goals to MU than malaysia who only lost 6.. our dailies went around praising that we manage to score 1 goal while malaysia score nothing!!
IF I AM THE PM.... I WILL FIRE THE ENTIRE ADVISORY COUNCIL ON THE SINGAPORE SPORTS COUNCIL AND PUT ManU TEAM MANAGER ON IT!!
if singaporeans can be replaced by foreign talents because we dont make the cut... then we too must demand that local officials who dont make the cut to GET LOST and be replace by foreign talents as well!
NOT fair to play double standard right??