Welfare or Charity, Gov or Community

• sarek_home

  21 Oct 04, 11:12

  This kind of reports is not unusual in Chinese newspaper.
  
  There are families in difficulties in our society.
  
  Should the government implement a welfare system to take care of them?
  Should we leave it to the community, media, grassroots leaders and ministers to help them in case-by-case way as shown in this report?
  
  =====================
  http://www.zaobao.com/sp/sp508_211004.html
  
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• goh meng seng

  21 Oct 04, 11:25

  Dear Serak,
  
  I am studying the Democratic Socialism practiced in places like Sweden, Swiss and Finland. How they manage to have social welfare at the same time with growth, prosperity and even budget surplus.
  
  Goh Meng Seng
• fymk

  21 Oct 04, 12:54

  Originally posted by goh meng seng:

  Dear Serak,
  
  I am studying the Democratic Socialism practiced in places like Sweden, Swiss and Finland. How they manage to have social welfare at the same time with growth, prosperity and even budget surplus.
  
  Goh Meng Seng

  I think this is how sweden gets a budget surplus.
  Sweden has also exceedingly high taxes if I am not wrong , expensive phone bills and their alcohol supplystore is totally regulated by the government. Only the government sells alcohol in sweden - known as the Systembolaget.....people take numbers to queue and buy alcohol . Their government then place heavy taxes on alcohol and stack profit selling margins . Best of all , swedes take in average per person 20 litres of pure alcohol (minus the other liquids) per year. Now that is a great money making generator
  
• iveco

  21 Oct 04, 12:57

  The people who need the most help are the retrenched NSmen. They are the ones who make the most sacrifices for their beloved nation, yet are in the firing line during rationalisation exercises. What do they get? NOTHING!
• Qitai

  21 Oct 04, 13:04

  Sweden Tax Rate:
  
  The following taxes are levied on earned income:
  
  local tax at a rate of 26-35 percent (depending on the municipality),
  
  national income tax of 20 percent on annual taxable earnings of between SEK 252,000 and 390,400 and 25 percent for income above SEK 390,400 (year 2001).
  
  The general VAT rate is 25 percent and this is applied to the turnover of all goods and services excepting foodstuffs, hotel accommodation, campsites and passenger transport (12 percent), as well as books, newspapers and certain goods and services in the cultural sphere (6 percent).
  
  I.e. Total Direct Tax is 46-55% + Indirerct Tax 25%
  
  Source: http://www.sweden.se/templates/FactSheet____3927.asp
  
• goh meng seng

  21 Oct 04, 15:35

  Dear Qitai,
  
  Look at it this way. You pay higher taxes, but you don't have to worry about paying school fees for your children, going out of jobs, going bankrupt when you try to start a business but failed...etc. etc.
  
  I may be good for encourage people to have more children!
  
  Don't worry about MNCs not coming to invest. They have their own ways of "Creative accounting" to avoid high taxes.
  
  This is a social contract, a trade off.
  
  Goh Meng Seng
  
  

  Originally posted by Qitai:

  Sweden Tax Rate:
  
  The following taxes are levied on earned income:
  
  local tax at a rate of 26-35 percent (depending on the municipality),
  
  national income tax of 20 percent on annual taxable earnings of between SEK 252,000 and 390,400 and 25 percent for income above SEK 390,400 (year 2001).
  
  The general VAT rate is 25 percent and this is applied to the turnover of all goods and services excepting foodstuffs, hotel accommodation, campsites and passenger transport (12 percent), as well as books, newspapers and certain goods and services in the cultural sphere (6 percent).
  
  I.e. Total Direct Tax is 46-55% + Indirerct Tax 25%
  
  Source: http://www.sweden.se/templates/FactSheet____3927.asp
  

• sarek_home

  21 Oct 04, 16:21

  You will have to look beyond the economical and political factors. I suspect you will find that Singaporeans lack of the social grace and civic mind to allow such level of social welfare works.
  
  It will be an unattainable goal that will serve no one.
  
  I prefer to see this thread go the direction of examining the state of the welfare and charity services and the society's need and what more the government can do. Like some small and immediate steps the government can implement to benefit the society.
  
  I am waiting for some more information before making a followup on this.
  
  

  Originally posted by goh meng seng:

  Dear Serak,
  
  I am studying the Democratic Socialism practiced in places like Sweden, Swiss and Finland. How they manage to have social welfare at the same time with growth, prosperity and even budget surplus.
  
  Goh Meng Seng

• fymk

  22 Oct 04, 09:08

  Originally posted by goh meng seng:

  Dear Qitai,
  
  Look at it this way. You pay higher taxes, but you don't have to worry about paying school fees for your children, going out of jobs, going bankrupt when you try to start a business but failed...etc. etc.
  
  I may be good for encourage people to have more children!
  
  Don't worry about MNCs not coming to invest. They have their own ways of "Creative accounting" to avoid high taxes.
  
  This is a social contract, a trade off.
  
  Goh Meng Seng
  
  

  Problem , Mr Goh, is that most singaporeans will not accept that type of social contract.
  
  Take for example :
  Everyone wants to get into university
  limited university places
  have to go overseas
  but singaporeans taxed to highly to even consider overseas
  so how?
  
  Want to buy HDB flat
  ( i.e. in stockholm all their places are expensive despite taxes)
  Price tag too high
  tax also killing the savings
  how?
  
  Bearing in mind , swedish wages are phenomenonly high to compensate for a high taxation system. In sweden (if I work there) , I can earn 3k USD per month . Who in singapore wants to pay me that amount? The singaporean job equivalent to that swedish job will only pay me SGD 2K only at most.
  
  Sweden has IT and communication infrastructures, and advanced technological R&D industries - and in order to pay their workers - phone and internet charges in sweden are ridiculously high ...I nearly choked when my friend told me about her trip there - she was whining about her phone bills.
  
  Alot of their MNCs investors are homegrown or came out as a result of a merger- Ikea , Astra-Zeneca (expensive drugs ++++) , Ericsson, Volvo and Saab ( now sold but they still retain factories in sweden), Electrolux, Absolut vodka (their government owned alcohol company) and alot of others. And may I note they use their LOCAL TALENTS ....not FOREIGN ONES. Of course their homegrowns continually invest in the country where they begun their humble beginnings.
  
  Singapore has minimal homegrown MNCs to employ locals - DBS barely qualify -....Temasek holdings maybe, so far it is Creative that I know is a homegrown MNC . In addition to outsourcing to foreigners - some singaporeans may not even have a job.
  
  So we cannot really compare the swedish system or the scandinavian system to Singapore to implement their socialist policies. One thing to note : they are also protective of their job markets too , they do not have a foreign talent policy like Singapore does.
• SilverPal

  22 Oct 04, 10:03

  Sorry for digressing, but I take that everyone here agrees that Singapore is not a welfare state?
  
  I've heard so many people constantly telling me that Sg is a nanny state and that locals expect the govt to look after them (insert expletives here).
• iveco

  22 Oct 04, 11:51

  Where do the Swedish firms find so much $$ to pay their employees' high wages then?
  
  Also, Volvo (I love their double decks) has retained control of its heavy vehicle division despite spinning off its passenger car manufacturing to Ford. Saab is now part of GM, but it uses a similar logo to Scania (may their buses rule forever). In fact, older model Saab cars have a logo which contains both the words "Saab" and "Scania". The Scania N113 CRB buses also have this plate with the words "Saab-Scania AB" on the inside panel at the front.
  
  I think that a limited welfare system is OK, if it is meant to help those who make sacrifices for the country during their reservist duty.
• fymk

  22 Oct 04, 22:46

  Originally posted by iveco:

  Where do the Swedish firms find so much $$ to pay their employees' high wages then?
  
  Also, Volvo (I love their double decks) has retained control of its heavy vehicle division despite spinning off its passenger car manufacturing to Ford. Saab is now part of GM, but it uses a similar logo to Scania (may their buses rule forever). In fact, older model Saab cars have a logo which contains both the words "Saab" and "Scania". The Scania N113 CRB buses also have this plate with the words "Saab-Scania AB" on the inside panel at the front.
  
  I think that a limited welfare system is OK, if it is meant to help those who make sacrifices for the country during their reservist duty.

  Swedish workers high pay = swedish products very expensive