National Service....

yuu_kajima

5 Apr 00, 21:28

It's a scary thing, to br sure. Believe me, I was there and it wasn't even WORTH debating if you were there too. Every day, I woke up, asking myself the same question: Why the hell am I still alive? What am I doing here? WHY? WHY? WHYWHYWHY? I am a strong believer of real peace--not the peace all governments promote by setting up Armies to threaten each other. THAT is merely a "keep at bay by means of violence" method. I do not believe in it. I don't have to go into the topic of the utilisation of time since, although we all know that politics leave no questions for the free mind, we can sure use the 2-2and a half years for self-enrichment, working etc.. The one thing I can't understand is that--why do we have to be treated like that? We are living, breathing, thinking individuals like all of the officers and sergeants. Why must we be at their mercy, at their beck and call, and be punished for the slightest things? Why camn't we go through a more Humane training in the course of BMT? The officers are almost allways sadistic. They see pain in our eyes and they can actually smile and torture us relentlessly. Imagine running down 4-storeys with 50+ sweating, flustered men in 20seconds. Undo-able? Precisely. They use that as an excuse to extend their authority and power. The sight of the sadistic joy and the childish gleam of the joy of abusing power I see in their eyes sickens me to the core. I don't relish serving NS. Indeed, I think most don't. But the sgts. amd officers can opt to vent their anger on us. We, unlike them, are like playthings. When you go through the process, your mind stops. It stops to think, because it knows that there is no amswer to the problem. I know. I spent 2 months forgetting the nightmare and another 1 month getting my brains to work. Even today I still get nightmares of the ordeal. No one can TELL you the process and expect anyone to understand. But at least, respect us as humans, PLEASE!

adrian xtc

6 Apr 00, 03:18

i agreed with u. i always couldnt understand why we as NSmen have to undergo this type of training. we serve NS to defend Singapore, NOT to be tortured by them!!!

i really couldnt understand, do all these punishments have to do with military training??? pls dun treat us like those POWs or slaves. even if we have done wrong, we should be given the appropriate punishments.

LittleMan

6 Apr 00, 04:48

You in the Army, your superior's commands is everything.

In times of war, you will have to die even if they ask you to. No questions asked. If you can't even take these torture, do you think you will obey their commands when they ask you to sacrifice your life for the country ?

In times of war, your enemy will treat you even worse than your sgts and officers now.

In the Army, it is all about discipline. Just do it.

You want welfare ? Discipline is the best welfare.

adrian xtc

6 Apr 00, 07:27

Originally posted by LittleMan:
In times of war, you will have to die even if they ask you to.

PLEASE!!! nobody can go ask other people to die, it's prosecutable under the law of Singapore. i think that u must be referring to giving up our life at our will for the defence of the country, and not that ur superiors ask us to die, then we die. that's stupid enough.

adrian xtc

6 Apr 00, 07:30

Originally posted by LittleMan:
If you can't even take these torture, do you think you will obey their commands when they ask you to sacrifice your life for the country ?

the answer is NO.

adrian xtc

6 Apr 00, 07:33

Originally posted by LittleMan:
In times of war, your enemy will treat you even worse than your sgts and officers now.

no wonder NS is like that. they want us to have some "practices" first. haha...

adrian xtc

6 Apr 00, 07:35

Originally posted by LittleMan:
You want welfare ? Discipline is the best welfare.

can u pls elaborate on this???

yuu_kajima

6 Apr 00, 09:23

I'm thinking that little man is either a higher ranking NSman or not even enlisted. The punishment given is never "Welfare". What you call welfare, I call torture. If that's the kind of treatment you'll give to humans, think of it given to YOU daily, if you were a "MAN" like us. I ask you--WHAT in this world is more precious than human life? You wanna talk about political ideals? I have my own ideals--do I ask people to die for what I believe in? No. But hte govt does--because they've got the authority. ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY. That is the basic principle. Singapore isn't a democratic state--it's communist! The people have no power--can't you see? It's only the illusion of power that keeps people from revolting. THAT, and the punishment system. Look what happened to the "banished" guy. I'm thinking no one would be accusing the PAP in a looooooong time, because of that. It's like the Jap occupation--cut people's head off and hang outside the house to serve as reminder and disincentive. More simply, it's to scare you off. Boo! I'll tell you about war. Politicains make their own ideas, call people of their country to die for them,a nd they fly off to miami sucking on coconut drinks, whilst we stay in the country, screaming "CHARGE~~~~~!!!" and rush on bravely, and stop not even when you see a comrade or even a relative you know being impaled by bayonets and bullets. Think they enemy is to blame? Think again. THEY too, are fighting for their beliefs. They, too, are fighting for someone else's beliefs. They , too, are dying for the beliefs. Don't you have any of your own ideals, little man? Don't you wish it'd all go away? I do not wish to see my brother die beside me. I do not want to be tortured by the very people who not be in the battles I fight. The worst torturers are the worst cowards. Think for yourself, and ACT for yourself. All the crap about loyalty to the country was formed by politicians like Hitler and likes to call upon people to die for their cause. It's enough to make me sick.

Revelations

6 Apr 00, 10:13

I agree to Littleman's comments, well most of it actually, no single officer in the armed forces will actually ask someone to die, that would be ridiculous, but I'm sure that is not what he meant.
Anyway, all these talks about torture, what are you all referring to as torture? Waking up 5am in the morning? Route marches? Section or jungle training? Stand-bys? Footdrills? or even the 20 push-ups which seem never ending?

LittleMan

6 Apr 00, 10:56

Originally posted by adrian xtc:
PLEASE!!! nobody can go ask other people to die, it's prosecutable under the law of Singapore. i think that u must be referring to giving up our life at our will for the defence of the country, and not that ur superiors ask us to die, then we die. that's stupid enough.

"Asking you to die" is an analogy. No officer is stupid enuff to do that without any reasons. But if your officer commands you to carry explosives on your body and charge into a enemy territory so that you can blast them to death (and at the same time die together), you will have to do it. No questions asked.

In the Army, command is everything.

In times of war, what is law ? The military command is law. You think you will be charged for spitting and littering during war times ?

Didn't you heard of the saying "Jun(1) Ling(4) Ru(2) Shan(1)" ?

LittleMan

6 Apr 00, 10:57

Originally posted by adrian xtc:
the answer is NO.

See !! Our (Singaporeans) safety is indeed in danger ! Here we have a soldier who is highly possible of MIA during war times. During war times, many decisions made by officers would not be very much understood by man cos of intelligence issue. If the man is going to question the officer for his every decision and then sit down and have a conference or debate, we are all going to die.

I think you seriously need some disciplining in the Army. Where are you posted to ?

[This message has been edited by LittleMan (edited 06 April 2000).]

LittleMan

6 Apr 00, 10:59

Originally posted by adrian xtc:
no wonder NS is like that. they want us to have some "practices" first. haha...

Don't you know that ?? Don't you know some soldiers (MP, Scouts, Commandos etc) do under POW treatment training during their NS life ?

LittleMan

6 Apr 00, 11:03

Originally posted by adrian xtc:
can u pls elaborate on this???

Discipline is the best welfare.

If you are a disciplined soldier, undergo all tough trainings, yes it may be bitter, but when it comes to war times, you are the one who enjoyed the best welfare becos you are able to take the hardship in real war times.

Those who have lots of welfare during trainings will be the one who suffer most during war times.

It is just when you enjoy that welfare. During training or during war times ?

Altrex

6 Apr 00, 11:17

c'mon Adrian, u're not enlisted yet unless I'm wrong so what do you know of the interesting NS punishments? Stories? nothing beats doing the real thing as i'm sure others will agree.

and yes yuu_kajima, what do u mean by torture? running down 4 storeys and doing it again and again cos u failed to make the timing? c'mon, can anyone out there who has served before tell me if they haven't done that and actually think that's a torture?

if u're still in BMT, i can safely tell u that u're at the very tip of the iceberg and generally BMT instructors are VERY nice. Most instructors in any training sch (by now), will train you hard, but in a reasonable manner.

do u know that in my BMT, there was a famous incident just after parent's visiting that resulted in the OC being charged (at least he was rumoured to be charged). in any case, he was removed from his post. this is the result when u "torture" recruits. pls...with all you soft complain kings, who dares to "torture" any of you now?

Littleman is right. Basically u need DISCLIPLINE. the hallmark of a armed forces. and adrian, the govt cannot tell you to go and die, that much is true. the constitution can. when u finally get enlisted, pls pay more attention to the words in the SAF pledge and if u ever make OCS, study yr military law a bit more. u'll find that yr officers have every single right to ask u to charge and possibly die simply because the nation demands it and the President gives yr officer the right to order it.

and yes, yuu_kajima, war is a tough thing. probably the worse part is what it does to you psychologically. there are tons of Vietnam war stories abt new conscipts unable to take the mental pressure and the psychological demands. if you can't even handle a little pressure of making a fall-in timing, i despair for you.

try to buck up. 2.5 yrs is a short time, u'll realise when u leave the service, but it can be very long too, if you have poor attitude. same advice to adrian

generally, the new batches of officers and specs are not as hard and unbending as last time. are you in any way a lesser man than the rest of us? i'm sure u're not. if you can't take a bit of hardness, u'll learn that you won't be able to achieve anything in this world, even outside the military context.

LittleMan

6 Apr 00, 11:32

Originally posted by yuu_kajima:
I'm thinking that little man is either a higher ranking NSman or not even enlisted.

can you explain this statement and justify yourself ? Please do not make groundless assumptions that do no good to the discussion.

The punishment given is never "Welfare".

see my post on "Discipline is the best Welfare"

What you call welfare, I call torture. If that's the kind of treatment you'll give to humans, think of it given to YOU daily, if you were a "MAN" like us.

what makes you think that i am not a man ? Just because i am able to take the training without complains ?

I ask you--WHAT in this world is more precious than human life?

The freedom of a country. I put it before my life. And as a soldier, i will do what i can to ensure the freedom of my nation.

You wanna talk about political ideals? I have my own ideals--do I ask people to die for what I believe in? No. But hte govt does--because they've got the authority.

and YOU are the one who gives them the authority during the General Election. Don't tell me you never vote for them, in democracy, you just follow the majority.

That is the basic principle. Singapore isn't a democratic state--it's communist!

may i ask how do you define *democracy* and *communism* ?

The people have no power--can't you see?

what kind of power you want ? YOU make decisions for the country ? If everybody tries to make decisions who is going to listen to who ? You have to learn what is community living.

Politicains make their own ideas, call people of their country to die for them,a nd they fly off to miami sucking on coconut drinks,

you fight for your country, the freedom of your countrymen, not for the politicians.

Btw, can you name any politicians who fly to miami to suck coconut milk when his people is fighting ? Or was it just your imagination ?

Think again. THEY too, are fighting for their beliefs. They, too, are fighting for someone else's beliefs. They , too, are dying for the beliefs. Don't you have any of your own ideals, little man?

yes, i have lots of ideals, but in times of war, i only have one ideal --> to help my country gain freedom and that is my duty as a soldier.

If people are unwilling to cooperate, all our personal ideals will NEVER be achieved, no matter how many ideals you may have and how great they may be. Without freedom, what can you do ?

You are too blinded by what you want.

Don't you wish it'd all go away? I do not wish to see my brother die beside me. I do not want to be tortured by the very people who not be in the battles I fight.

yes, who wants war ? And we can deter it by having a strong and effective army. An army that is ever ready to go to war and with soldiers who are always ready to die for the country.

The weakest army is one whose soldiers always question the command of higher authorities. In peace time, we can sit down and discuss, we have plenty of time, in war times, we don't ! Every minute counts especially in high-tech war which we are most probably going to engage in (if we are going into a war that is). If the reforcement is 1 minute late, your buddies may have all been killed before you arrive.

Think for yourself, and ACT for yourself.

this really worries me, if every individual has such mentality, we are doomed.

All the crap about loyalty to the country was formed by politicians like Hitler and likes to call upon people to die for their cause.

so you are marking all war-times heros as idiots. Now, I seldom call people names in this forum, but i shall let you be an exception -- you are hideous.

You put your self-interest above everything.

LittleMan

6 Apr 00, 12:39

Frankly, it is all those hardship (call it torture if you want) that makes me so dedicated to my platoon. After all these trainings, i can finally call them buddies and am willing to die with them in the war front.

I may be an individual, but together we create a force.

Altrex

6 Apr 00, 15:51

encore LittleMan! I salute you.

Indeed, when you leave the service, many guys are bonded through common experience.

I have a few close friends whom I've only spent a mere 10 weeks in NS with. We went through bad times, encouraging each other, and made it through by supporting each other. I know that in bad times, they will always support me and we will go through thick and thin together. Besides willing to die with them, I know that in the crunch they will not willingly let me down.

It's the trust. Forged through common experience.

Yuu_kajima, if you're still in BMT, u had better pray that u don't go to units like 1 Guards or 3 Guards. Many of the OCs there are tough Guards officers. They wouldn't like your kind.

millennium

6 Apr 00, 15:58

Not all training in BMT are siong, violence and inhuman. If you are lucky to get into some welfare company in BMTC School, or any whitehorse in your company. You can start to enjoy your BMT to fullest. Believe me, the welfare can be super welfare. I am one of those lucky batch to enlist in the most welfare company in BMTC School 2 few years ago. During that time, every company in BMTC School 2 knows how welfare my company is. Now the company had moved to Tekong, I do not know their welfare standard now.

Of course I also saw some company who little welfare is given to recuit, tekan them everyday. Get scolding everyday. Not treated like human at all.

It all depend on your luck. Which type of company you posted to.
Wish good luck to all who have not enlist.

Altrex

6 Apr 00, 16:02

one more thing, yuu_kajima, yr officers have been through probably every single thing they asked u to do and a lot more.

so have the PTIs if u're crying abt them. PTIs do FBO SOC. once, i met this bunch of PTI trainees doing FBO SOC training in Pasir Laba Camp. looking at them, i really wonder how they could take it. they have my respect coz they earned it. i never looked at PTIs the same way again since that day.

by the way, yr officers are trained to do whatever they can to keep you alive. they have a responsibility to yr parents, gf, whatever, for yr welfare (REAL welfare, not "how to be a soft kid")

they answer for yr training, morale and discipline. pls respect them a bit more

adrian xtc

7 Apr 00, 03:42

LittleMan, let the time tells the outcome. where m i posted??? i dun even noe which company i'm posted to. as for the BMTC school, u noe where the majority go.

Altrex, no, the constitution cant do that, the government can.

adrian xtc

7 Apr 00, 03:44

for ur info, i only have to spent 7 weeks on Tekong as i'm a PES C enlistee.

yuu_kajima

7 Apr 00, 17:53

Originally posted by Revelations:
I agree to Littleman's comments, well most of it actually, no single officer in the armed forces will actually ask someone to die, that would be ridiculous, but I'm sure that is not what he meant.
Anyway, all these talks about torture, what are you all referring to as torture? Waking up 5am in the morning? Route marches? Section or jungle training? Stand-bys? Footdrills? or even the 20 push-ups which seem never ending?

Well, 20? More like 100 or more, yes. All that, and the danger of going to OCS and SPEC even if you don't wanna go. Well, at least, to me, it is tough, because I'm not the sort to exercise regularly, although I'm a school player. The life, though, takes quite a while to adapt to. I had many guys suffering nervous breakdowns in the first week of PTP. Did you go for PTP? Our total BMT was 4 months because of that.

yuu_kajima

7 Apr 00, 17:59

Originally posted by LittleMan:
"Asking you to die" is an analogy. No officer is stupid enuff to do that without any reasons. But if your officer commands you to carry explosives on your body and charge into a enemy territory so that you can blast them to death (and at the same time die together), you will have to do it. No questions asked.

In the Army, command is everything.

In times of war, what is law ? The military command is law. You think you will be charged for spitting and littering during war times ?

Didn't you heard of the saying "Jun(1) Ling(4) Ru(2) Shan(1)" ?

I-Don't-think-any officer would command like that. But, remember the officers are only the pawns in the military chessboard, like us. They recieve commands from higher authority. So, like I said, the training and dying is all fine, But WHY? Tell me honestly--WHY? Do you think it's worth dying for a piece of land? I'd much rather be beside my family, fighting away intruders, so that even if I die, at least I die with my family, in my home.

yuu_kajima

7 Apr 00, 18:03

Originally posted by LittleMan:
See !! Our (Singaporeans) safety is indeed in danger ! Here we have a soldier who is highly possible of MIA during war times. During war times, many decisions made by officers would not be very much understood by man cos of intelligence issue. If the man is going to question the officer for his every decision and then sit down and have a conference or debate, we are all going to die.

I think you seriously need some disciplining in the Army. Where are you posted to ?

[This message has been edited by LittleMan (edited 06 April 2000).]

I have no idea who you think you are, Rambo or some future war hero--but keep your threats and insults off this forum. I don't know who you are, and I don't give a damn. Just discuss, talk, and don't scold--we all have the right to think and speak--so if you wanna be bossy and all, go away. We all have different viewpoints, so respect that and don't insult people's views. At least we don't, see?

yuu_kajima

7 Apr 00, 18:09

Originally posted by LittleMan:
Don't you know that ?? Don't you know some soldiers (MP, Scouts, Commandos etc) do under POW treatment training during their NS life ?

Yes, we(I assume) know--the tie up your hands and legs and throw you in a corner etc. thing. But somehow I don't think the commandos and guards and MPs want sympathy. But I give it to them, not sympathy, but respect. It takes a lot to go through all that and still stay sane and same as before they went in. But self-questionning--that is the biggest barrier any soldier has to go through. That's what's happening here. Most people can't kill a living person without feeling guilty--it's part of it. And that brings to mind--if you can't kill, why go through training to kill?