Home > Speaker's Corner

National Service....

yuu_kajima
7 Apr 00, 18:17

Originally posted by Altrex:
c'mon Adrian, u're not enlisted yet unless I'm wrong so what do you know of the interesting NS punishments? Stories? nothing beats doing the real thing as i'm sure others will agree.

and yes yuu_kajima, what do u mean by torture? running down 4 storeys and doing it again and again cos u failed to make the timing? c'mon, can anyone out there who has served before tell me if they haven't done that and actually think that's a torture?

if u're still in BMT, i can safely tell u that u're at the very tip of the iceberg and generally BMT instructors are VERY nice. Most instructors in any training sch (by now), will train you hard, but in a reasonable manner.

do u know that in my BMT, there was a famous incident just after parent's visiting that resulted in the OC being charged (at least he was rumoured to be charged). in any case, he was removed from his post. this is the result when u "torture" recruits. pls...with all you soft complain kings, who dares to "torture" any of you now?

Littleman is right. Basically u need DISCLIPLINE. the hallmark of a armed forces. and adrian, the govt cannot tell you to go and die, that much is true. the constitution can. when u finally get enlisted, pls pay more attention to the words in the SAF pledge and if u ever make OCS, study yr military law a bit more. u'll find that yr officers have every single right to ask u to charge and possibly die simply because the nation demands it and the President gives yr officer the right to order it.

and yes, yuu_kajima, war is a tough thing. probably the worse part is what it does to you psychologically. there are tons of Vietnam war stories abt new conscipts unable to take the mental pressure and the psychological demands. if you can't even handle a little pressure of making a fall-in timing, i despair for you.

try to buck up. 2.5 yrs is a short time, u'll realise when u leave the service, but it can be very long too, if you have poor attitude. same advice to adrian

generally, the new batches of officers and specs are not as hard and unbending as last time. are you in any way a lesser man than the rest of us? i'm sure u're not. if you can't take a bit of hardness, u'll learn that you won't be able to achieve anything in this world, even outside the military context.
Well, I wasn't refering to BMT alone--note the title says national service, not BMT. And yes, I agree with you(though I don't like your tone) Bmt is only the tip--I have plenty of commando and Guard pals to tell me All about it. But to experience it? U kiddin'? Once you hear it, you get fits. And, I HAVE gone through BMT. Unlike most people, I'm not gonna forget it and say--Nah,it was nothing. It WAS hell. You know it, I know it. Unless you were in White horse co. or Pes c co,.etc. I was pes b, in Advanced BMT. so 3 field camps etcetc. And yeah, I know of the Post-Traumatic stress disorder. It came with the pressure of watching people you know and care about die in front of you. Some kind of shock, I think.(Shivers) War...what's it good for?
yuu_kajima
7 Apr 00, 18:23

Originally posted by LittleMan:
so you are marking all war-times heros as idiots. Now, I seldom call people names in this forum, but i shall let you be an exception -- you are hideous.
Note that I didn't call them idiots--YOU did.I repect that they were willing to die for something they believed in--that takes a lot of sacriface--to die for something. I would, too, but it would be for something I believe in, not the constitution. I don't believe what the constitution tells us. An I'm not stupid, either, I can make decisions for myself without their help.
You put your self-interest above everything.
So you live for other people? You'll learn. But before that, you'll realize that no one would give a hooter's poop how and where you die in war. There are no war heroes--only good killers. And there is no peace--just deterence. And, lastly, nonono, YOU are the hideous one.
yuu_kajima
7 Apr 00, 18:26

Originally posted by LittleMan:
Frankly, it is all those hardship (call it torture if you want) that makes me so dedicated to my platoon. After all these trainings, i can finally call them buddies and am willing to die with them in the war front.

I may be an individual, but together we create a force.
That's nice. I would die with and for my BMT platoon too, although some of them were as*holes. But would THEY want to die as eagerly as YOU do?
yuu_kajima
7 Apr 00, 18:33

Originally posted by Altrex:
encore LittleMan! I salute you.

Indeed, when you leave the service, many guys are bonded through common experience.

I have a few close friends whom I've only spent a mere 10 weeks in NS with. We went through bad times, encouraging each other, and made it through by supporting each other. I know that in bad times, they will always support me and we will go through thick and thin together. Besides willing to die with them, I know that in the crunch they will not willingly let me down.

It's the trust. Forged through common experience.

Yuu_kajima, if you're still in BMT, u had better pray that u don't go to units like 1 Guards or 3 Guards. Many of the OCs there are tough Guards officers. They wouldn't like your kind.
Oh, Iknoe, I get that all the time. I'm not insulting the bonds between the platoonmates. Somtimes I look at my buddy and I think--wouldn't it be nice if we had been friends outside of BMT, before it came along...And I know most officers don't like smart asses. Woo-hoo. So what if they are tough? I don't care. That's their problem. I'm not soft--just idealistic. I'd like to stay that way too. And I'm already POP. Hated the whole thing, though. I liked the sergeants, though. They were good people. And I know most of you people out there think we are "Cao(4) Kheng(1)", but we're not. (I assume) I have only 3 problems--and that's with the constitution and the twisted idea of peace and some of the sadistic officers.
yuu_kajima
7 Apr 00, 18:35

Originally posted by millennium:
Not all training in BMT are siong, violence and inhuman. If you are lucky to get into some welfare company in BMTC School, or any whitehorse in your company. You can start to enjoy your BMT to fullest. Believe me, the welfare can be super welfare. I am one of those lucky batch to enlist in the most welfare company in BMTC School 2 few years ago. During that time, every company in BMTC School 2 knows how welfare my company is. Now the company had moved to Tekong, I do not know their welfare standard now.

Of course I also saw some company who little welfare is given to recuit, tekan them everyday. Get scolding everyday. Not treated like human at all.

It all depend on your luck. Which type of company you posted to.
Wish good luck to all who have not enlist.
Thanks, man. You're right, of course.
yuu_kajima
7 Apr 00, 18:38

Originally posted by Altrex:
one more thing, yuu_kajima, yr officers have been through probably every single thing they asked u to do and a lot more.

so have the PTIs if u're crying abt them. PTIs do FBO SOC. once, i met this bunch of PTI trainees doing FBO SOC training in Pasir Laba Camp. looking at them, i really wonder how they could take it. they have my respect coz they earned it. i never looked at PTIs the same way again since that day.

by the way, yr officers are trained to do whatever they can to keep you alive. they have a responsibility to yr parents, gf, whatever, for yr welfare (REAL welfare, not "how to be a soft kid")

they answer for yr training, morale and discipline. pls respect them a bit more
Like I said, I respect what they've gone through--it takes a lot--I know. But I don't respect the types of officers and PTIs and SGTs who take pleasure in hurting people. Don't be surprised--they exist. I've met some of them--monkey king, for instance.
yuu_kajima
7 Apr 00, 18:40

Originally posted by adrian xtc:
LittleMan, let the time tells the outcome. where m i posted??? i dun even noe which company i'm posted to. as for the BMTC school, u noe where the majority go.

Altrex, no, the constitution cant do that, the government can.
Well said.
yuu_kajima
7 Apr 00, 18:41

Originally posted by adrian xtc:
for ur info, i only have to spent 7 weeks on Tekong as i'm a PES C enlistee.
I wish you luck.
Revelations
8 Apr 00, 00:26

To Yuu_Kajima,

Well, from what I can see, you seem rather bitter about your NS days, so I gather you might have had a bad experience in the army to feel so strongly about things? And mm......Monkey God, hahaha, I can still remember his famous theme, he is not really that bad a guy.
Well, I would actually expect PTP people to grumble a bit, afterall, PTP training is centralised on the physical aspect itself. I went through my BMT at Nee Soon Camp, but I do know how tough PTP training is like. I would agree that the transition from a civilian into an army guy in PTP might be quite extreme, especially since people admitted to PTP are usually not the more physically inclined, but given the short amount of time to beef everyone up, the PTIs don't really have the luxury of choice. But haven't you come out of PTP a fitter man, and proud to say that you have endured the four months of shit you went through? 20 pushups, 100 pushups, makes no difference I"m sure at the end, when you actually realise you can do 100, rite? PTIs look like the meany that they are, but agitation is one of the best motivation to reach your limit. It is an ordeal those few months I am sure, but I think it is necessary.
For me I don't really think that it is that bad going to OCS or SISPEC, in fact, I was actually glad I got into OCS. Anyone here remember the assurance by our instructors that we are the lowest form of being in the SAF? That was very reassuring, hahaha...... the training and everything was expectedly tough, but going through all that have given me the confidence I have in many aspects of life.
Revelations
8 Apr 00, 00:29

I agree with everything Littleman says, even though he might not have put it in the best way acceptable to you. Let's try not to make it flamy here, and carry on the discussion peacefully and amicably. I am actually quite new with this, and don't really know how to quote people, so everything I say, you just have to scroll manually up to check.
Revelations
8 Apr 00, 00:40

OK, your comment that officers are only pawns in the military chessboard. I agree with that, to a certain degree. Officers however, are trained to be decision making pawns. People on top tell you the mission, constrains and everything. The officer does the thinking and delegation. People on top definitely don't give commands like "ask your man to strap himself with explosives blah blah blah", that would be ridiculous.

You asked why it is worth dying for a piece of land? Well, when Littleman mentioned he was willing to die for his country, I pretty much doubt that it was just a piece of land he was referring to. It encompasses the people within, people like your family and friends. You don't fight for a piece of land, you fight for your people, and the place you call home.
Revelations
8 Apr 00, 00:46

You mentioned if you can't kill, why bother to be trained to kill......
Picture it this way, right now, during peace, no question about it, noone in the right mind would train you to kill. We don't want mercenaries here do we. But NS is training you for war. In times of war, when you are left with the choice, kill or be killed, and the choice kill or subject your people to the enemies, that would be a different matter. The enemy that you are faced with, if not gotten rid of, might be the same one that is going to harm your family.
Revelations
8 Apr 00, 01:05

Well, you have Guards and Commando friends who tell you all about their training. Then, good for you. You should then know that by their vocations, what are the dangers that they are expected to face while protecting the country and people like you and I.

What good is a war? Well, the answer is, war is the lousy. You would be psycho to think war is good. But that does not mean that National Service is not necessary. Preparing for a war is the best way of defending against it. Let me take a mundane example, you walk down the street with your girlfriend, some thugs come along and snatch your girlfriend away. Do you defend your girlfriend or do you just walk away thinking of peace, and let the police handle the matter? Of course I'm not saying don't call the police, don't misunderstand, but after the call, you are going to sit down and wait while letting your girlfriend be subjected to the thugs? It is the same case for a country. An agressor comes and invade your country. As a country, not being prepared, are we just going to call for foreign intervention without us doing anything to defend ourselves? Look at Kuwait for your example.

Oh yah, i forgot, u mentioned previously if u were to die, u would rather die with your family rite?? Think World War II, would that be of any use?

And I am running out of time, your concept of freedom, well, I won't comment much about it, but a book I would recommend is the Lord Of Flies. Everyone can have all the freedom they want to do anything they want, but is that necessarily good?

All the best, and if you are still in the army, best of luck then.
Altrex
8 Apr 00, 01:07

Yuu_kajima, it may interest u to know that i was a PTP veteran and benefited from it. Turned from a 11 plus runner to a sub 9.30 runner by the time i was in OCS. did zilch chin-ups and got whacked till i once hit 20.

monkey god? i've met him too. i remember all my PTP field PTs. my PTI loved making us to 20 push-ups between every single stretching exercise. before the PT even started, we had oredi done 200+ push-ups. i sure cursed and swore in my mind, but i made it through.

i remember the 7 min FBO turn-outs, the 1 min in, 1 min out for full pack inspection. and of course, Revelation, i remember the introduction talk quite well.

"so you think that just because you got into OCS, u think u very big izzit? let me tell u, u're the lowest lifeform in the SAF. u don't even exist in the structure at all. (not very true, but nvm...)"

after the welcome exercises, and the 50 minute long water parade (god...a puny green mug of water can be so heavy...), my platoon quickly learnt the idea that a officer should be responsible for his actions, have pride, care abt others, just to name a few.

anyway, with regards to the argument over who has the authority to send u to your death, i do remember that it has to do with the wording of the Armed Forces Act (or izzit called the SAF Act?) and after all, servicemen swear their allegience to the Constitution and the President, not the government.

to adrian, lucky fellow....mebbe u'll get some good clerk postings, though my fren who went OOC during AISLC got a VERY bad posting. pray for yr luck....
LittleMan Supporter
8 Apr 00, 01:55

Hi, let me introduce myself, i am not new to this forum, have been reading it since last month but i have posted nothing cos i don't feel the urge. But after knowing that LittleMan had left the forum permanently (sad cos i always support his ideas, his is a person who is so clear about his thinkings ...) ... and all those postings by yuu_kajima, i just wish to say something ....

first of all, the very first post by yuu_kajima was not written in a way for discussion. It was just a piece of complain. He is just out to vent his anger.

Well, at least, to me, it is tough, because I'm not the sort to exercise regularly, although I'm a school player
i am too not a tough person. My timing for SOC was always one of the lowest in my platoon. But i try. I volunteered to run in SBO rifle helmet in the early morning run while all the rest of my platoon mates are in PT kit. I am not good, but i try.

Did you go for PTP? Our total BMT was 4 months because of that
i am not a PTP batch. But i am a monointake. And in monointake, our BMT is not in School (BTS) but in Unit. You want to know how tough that is ? Go ask your mono-intake frens. There was a week when the whole company only slept for 3 hours, yes, for THE WHOLE WEEK, NOT 3 hours everyday.

I-Don't-think-any officer would command like that
you think i thought who confirm ? sounds familiar ? If there is a need, it will be done.

I'd much rather be beside my family, fighting away intruders, so that even if I die, at least I die with my family, in my home.
so you are suggesting that we shall not have an army at all and when the intruders come, we just fight the away from our home/ And if they attack your nieghbours' house, it is also none of your business ? as long as you are safe ? I think LittleMan is right, you "put yourself above everything else". But he is polite enough not to use the word "selfish".

you said :

keep your threats and insults off this forum. I don't know who you are, and I don't give a damn. Just discuss, talk, and don't scold-
then said :

YOU are the hideous one.
still dare to say :

At least we don't, see?
you simply slapped yourself.

btw, why you say LittleMan is hideous ? I don't get it. He is hideous in what sense ?

(Shivers) War...what's it good for?
nobody in this thread ever says war is good. And because it is no good that's why we need a strong and effective army to deter potential aggressors like what Revelations said.

There are no war heroes--only good killers.
huh ? you are saying Lim Mou Sheng etc etc are killers ?

yes, war is ugly, but when someone attacks you what will you do ? sit down and preach ? Or maybe have a forum like this to discuss ? Or beg them to go away ?

But would THEY want to die as eagerly as YOU do?
i don't think LittleMan is "eager to die" like what you said. But he will give no hesitation to sacrifice his life for his country when required. For that i applaud him.

yuu_kajiman is not here to discuss, he is here to complain. But i sympathise you yuu_kajiman, cos you are so full of hatred and misery.

LittleMan always answers ALL questions posted to him be it here or in Chit-Chat. Cos he is truly out for a discussion. But yuu_kajima, you have avoided so many questions posted to you by him and just keep yaking away. Why ? Here's the questions LittleMan posted :

1. can you explain this statement and justify yourself ? (YOU SAID : I'm thinking that little man is either a higher ranking NSman or not even enlisted. )

2. what makes you think that i am not a man ? (YOU SAID : If that's the kind of treatment you'll give to humans, think of it given to YOU daily, if you were a "MAN" like us. )

3. may i ask how do you define *democracy* and *communism* ? (YOU SAID : Singapore isn't a democratic state--it's communist! )

4. what kind of power you want ? YOU make decisions for the country ? (YOU SAID : The people have no power--can't you see? )

5. Btw, can you name any politicians who fly to miami to suck coconut milk when his people is fighting ? (YOU SAID : Politicains make their own ideas, call people of their country to die for them,a nd they fly off to miami sucking on coconut drinks)

6. Without freedom, what can you do ? (YOU SAID : THEY too, are fighting for their beliefs. They, too, are fighting for someone else's beliefs. They , too, are dying for the beliefs. Don't you have any of your own ideals, little man? )

if you are here for a discussion like you said in your post, do you mind answer these questions ? They were posted to you.

btw, your officers and sgt will never ask you do something they themselves cannot do. Don't believe ? Challenge them. That's what my platoon mate did and he lost. Terribly.

[This message has been edited by LittleMan Supporter (edited 08 April 2000).]
YLH
8 Apr 00, 03:00

Dear yuu_kajima,

I am a strong believer of real peace--not the peace all governments promote by setting up Armies to threaten each other. THAT is merely a "keep at bay by means of violence" method. I do not believe in it.

I think the 'real peace' that you believe in only exists in an ideal world where people care about one another and only use things that belong to them. However, the world that we live in is not ideal. People do steal from one another, people do kill their fellow human beings and in a bigger scale, countries do attack one another (remember Iraq's invation to Kuwait).

Governments do not like to go to war (in general) because it simply costs too much, in terms of lives, money, properties, time and lots of other things. However, that doesn't mean that they do not need armed forces to defend their countries. After all, you have to defend what is yours, right? How can you do that without an armed forces and a well-trained one at that? Are you going to leave the country at the mercy of other countries?

Furthermore, armed forces do not only serve to defend the country from external attack. They also defend the country from internal attack. What I mean by internal attack is incidents within the country itself that threaten the stability and the security of the nation, e.g. riots, strikes.

Therefore, armed forces are essential in the existence and well-being of a country, not to mention the peaceful lives of the people who live in the country.
Mind
8 Apr 00, 20:29

From someone who has juz completed bmt.... i will say SAF nowadays is pretty wellfare....
Training wise is quite relax too... in fact i dun find the training tough at all. Trench digging isn't as scary as it seems to be. U might get a few blister here and there for 24 click... but other than that its pretty okie. In fact the training is so easy that one of my platoon mates said this," I think Singapore is finished if all of us received this kind of training."

I think NCC training are also tougher than BMT training. Some ppl might find it tough.... but like what my platoon guys says," u find it tough not cos the training is tough but bcos u are weak".

U consider running up and down the building torture? Well i can tell u its nothing compare to those torture during our father's days. Everything is so welfare nowadays.
weg
8 Apr 00, 23:55

I agree... I seriously think that saying that bmt is very welfare is an understatement. Just look at all the rules and guidelines that instructors have to follow.
Even my secondary school band camp was tougher than BMT, both physically and mentally. It is quite sad that BMT has come to such a stage. You can see the discipline dropping already. Though most of us won't admit, we do need an occasional whacking or so in order to keep ourselves on track.
BMT I feel has become a honeymoon phase. If pple are still complaining about it, then they must be really spoilt.
Army training is meant to be tough, otherwise how are we to survive the arduous conditions of war? Hard training during peacetime will only serve to strengthen our mental will which is much needed in hostile times. If a soldier cannot even take running up staircases, change parades, turn-outs.. and choose to adopt the short-term view that that is all part of the instructor's sadistic nature, then the future of our armed forces is bleak.
The phrase: tough training is the best form of welfare is very true, but it's just that many of us refuse to acknowledge it because we naturally detest it.
Just imagine that one day we are indeed engaged in a war. The simple act of being able to be ready in the shortest possible time due to the numerous turnouts we had during peace time, could decide whether we remain alive. Would you still complain?
Illegal Operation
9 Apr 00, 10:13

To stereotype the masses, and the condition, I have this to say

First for the officers, sergants and those in command. You have learnt command and control through hardknocks.. after 10 months of grueling training in OCS, you are out to prove your worth. The world is at your knees, and you wish to command your platoon to victory... and that means, your men must follow your instruction.. but then.. wait, You might SUCK!! Not all officers suck...but perhaps you do, and your men are not dumb. They are not going to follow your instructions if you suck!! Then of course, you might not really suck. Maybe its just the welfare? Granting that nights off? Or perhaps you just need to communicate more with your man?

Now.. even if you suck, you still wish to lead your men to success.(What's the 10 months for right?) But remember this.. your men will hate u when you suck! You can't gain their respect, and later you realize realize that you have not fulfil your wish to be a good leader.. now, you are pissed. "The army ought to be tougher!!!" you said.. Of course you say that.. a leader without a chance to lead and excel and overcome (familar?)

Now you wish the army would have been a whole lot tougher, the men would have been a whole lot more obedient, and hey.. if BMT was tougher, perhaps your men will obey u even if you suck!!

And to that I say, its a vicious cycle. Sad but true. And this group of people form the <siao on> cohort in the army.. generally, they are the ones that think NS should be 5 years, and reservist should be a 50 years cycle.. they love the army and continue bragging about it 50 years after ORD.

..next. The men. The privates, the coporals.
Illegal Operation
9 Apr 00, 10:15

To stereotype the masses, and the condition, I have this to say

First for the officers, sergants and those in command. You have learnt command and control through hardknocks.. after 10 months of grueling training in OCS, you are out to prove your worth. The world is at your knees, and you wish to command your platoon to victory... and that means, your men must follow your instruction.. but then.. wait, You might SUCK!! Not all officers suck...but perhaps you do, and your men are not dumb. They are not going to follow your instructions if you suck!! Then of course, you might not really suck. Maybe its just the welfare? Granting that nights off? Or perhaps you just need to communicate more with your man?

Now.. even if you suck, you still wish to lead your men to success.(What's the 10 months for right?) But remember this.. your men will hate u when you suck! You can't gain their respect, and later you realize realize that you have not fulfil your wish to be a good leader.. now, you are pissed. "The army ought to be tougher!!!" you said.. Of course you say that.. a leader without a chance to lead and excel and overcome (familar?)

Now you wish the army would have been a whole lot tougher, the men would have been a whole lot more obedient, and hey.. if BMT was tougher, perhaps your men will obey u even if you suck!!

And to that I say, its a vicious cycle. Sad but true. And this group of people form the <siao on> cohort in the army.. generally, they are the ones that think NS should be 5 years, and reservist should be a 50 years cycle.. they love the army and continue bragging about it 50 years after ORD.

..next. The men. The privates, the coporals.
Illegal Operation
9 Apr 00, 12:13

the men.. the privates, and the CPLs..this is another stereotyping kind of opinion. So don't shoot me.

You entered NS, and like the rest, the road ahead is filled with uncertainty.. perhaps you might just love it? Perhaps your Platoon commander might have been such an influence that you will strive for a place in OCS.. then again, maybe you might hate it. Coz punishments are never rational. irritional punishments might have been there to train you up... or maybe not. It just be because your officer had a tough day.. and hey.. what a nice anger venter you look like.

Rational or not.. there is a limit to what a human (a teen probably) can take... it didn't take long for you to pick up the impression that your officers suck. And if your officer suck, perhaps the rest suck too.. and hey, don't they all come from the same place?

And look what happened to your expectation of your career(?) in the army. From a recruit full of zest and vigor, one who wishes to be a cut above the rest, now you just wish time will pass faster, and hey.. perhaps if you downgrade, life will be easier.. and time will pass.. How about pretending to be a mashmarrow? They don't send mashmarrows to NCO course do they?

Oh yes it worked. You are posted to your unit as a men.. rifleman perhaps? Sadly, life don't get any better.. you soon realize that there are tons of people like yourself.. any discussion before bedtime is a badmouthing session about your PC and CSM..
and the fact that some of your superior SUCK does act to the terrible impression that this whole organization is giving u. "I hate this place!!!" you say.

Generally you are the cohort who thinks NS should be only 23 days. Reservist once every century. Sad but true...

So if you are one of those who posted here, and you do not in anyway fit into one of this 2 stereotype, chances are, either you are wierd, or have never done national service before.

Its a mutually exclusive thing. Commander and Men will never have the same perception and outlook for what's right.

Thanks for listening.

[This message has been edited by Illegal Operation (edited 09 April 2000).]
Revelations
11 Apr 00, 07:09

One thing I can say - myopic - to the earlier comments.
Terence
11 Apr 00, 08:01

illegal operation,

you may be expressing personal opinions - but they are stupid nonetheless. and also, go read a book; try and widen your vocabulary.

cheerio
Illegal Operation
11 Apr 00, 09:49

Oh.. will do. thanks.
lookz
17 May 00, 00:29

>I think you seriously need some >disciplining in the Army. Where are you >posted to ?

My friend, don't be too jumpy to reprimand him. If you would take a look at some units where on Saturdays the Regulars just sit around the mess all day and idle and drink beer while making the NSF do their work for them, how would you feel as NSF?