AMU
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Greetings to all!!!
Well eversince Sep 11,there has been a significantly remarkable push by various countries to field AMUs (AMU=Air Marshal Units).And as usual,S'pore reacted,analysed and fielded such a unit.
However,I'm wondering how can a one or two man team of police shooters posing as passengers stop lets say 4-5 armed tangos or a single tango wearing a explosive vest connected with a dead man's triggering device?
Watched the news both on the net and on TV,people do really value having the AMU around.But have anyone also considered the possibility that what if the AMU due to whatever reasons decides to hijack the aircraft?Then it would be a total disaster.Why?Simply because they know what the assault teams is gonna do,what is the SOP of the pilots during such a situation etc...
Lastly,read that Air Marshals are equipped with semi-automatic pistols which are loaded with special ammunition which will break-up upon entering something solid,this is to prevent the round from ricocheting and injuring the other passengers or puncturing the aircraft's fuselage causing a sudden de-pressurization of the cabin risking more lives.So with this type of ammunition,how on earth will they be able to take down tangos who wear concealed soft-body armour?
Thanks for your replies/comments. -
well, what if the pilot decides to crash his aircraft into some skyscraper?
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In the event of trouble, they are in the tight spot(literally!). They might not do any other thing than to provide information from within if the need arises.
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This topic has been tossed around in US LE/Mil forums and magazines for ages.Originally posted by SpecOps87:However,I'm wondering how can a one or two man team of police shooters posing as passengers stop lets say 4-5 armed tangos or a single tango wearing a explosive vest connected with a dead man's triggering device?
Watched the news both on the net and on TV,people do really value having the AMU around.But have anyone also considered the possibility that what if the AMU due to whatever reasons decides to hijack the aircraft?Then it would be a total disaster.Why?Simply because they know what the assault teams is gonna do,what is the SOP of the pilots during such a situation etc...
Lastly,read that Air Marshals are equipped with semi-automatic pistols which are loaded with special ammunition which will break-up upon entering something solid,this is to prevent the round from ricocheting and injuring the other passengers or puncturing the aircraft's fuselage causing a sudden de-pressurization of the cabin risking more lives.So with this type of ammunition,how on earth will they be able to take down tangos who wear concealed soft-body armour?
Thanks for your replies/comments.
A good idea was "Why not allow sworn police officers to carry their guns aboard aircraft"? Ta-dah. Free Air Marshals.
The answer to your question: If the pilot decides to crash the plane.. nobody can stop him. Short of shooting down the aircraft. Go read Debt Of Honour.
Aircraft safety is a team effort. The Customs people, police officers, and all the rest have to do their jobs. May i take this opportunity to inform you that Mr Reid, otherwise known as the Shoe Bomber was not taken down by any air marshal, but by concerned passengers.
(I'd be concerned if i saw someone trying to set fire to his shoe).
And to your last question.
Simple. Aim for the head, the arm, the leg, anywhere else but the chest because everybody these days loves to wear armor.
And if the Air Marshals themselves want to hijack the aircraft, we're up S_H_I_T creek without a paddle. Go watch Air Force One. The hijacking was possible only because they had inside help from an USSS agent. -
A well train one or 2 man team is possible to stop a 4-5 armed hijacker in certain situations.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Greetings to all!!!
Well eversince Sep 11,there has been a significantly remarkable push by various countries to field AMUs (AMU=Air Marshal Units).And as usual,S'pore reacted,analysed and fielded such a unit.
However,I'm wondering how can a one or two man team of police shooters posing as passengers stop lets say 4-5 armed tangos or a single tango wearing a explosive vest connected with a dead man's triggering device?
Watched the news both on the net and on TV,people do really value having the AMU around.But have anyone also considered the possibility that what if the AMU due to whatever reasons decides to hijack the aircraft?Then it would be a total disaster.Why?Simply because they know what the assault teams is gonna do,what is the SOP of the pilots during such a situation etc...
Lastly,read that Air Marshals are equipped with semi-automatic pistols which are loaded with special ammunition which will break-up upon entering something solid,this is to prevent the round from ricocheting and injuring the other passengers or puncturing the aircraft's fuselage causing a sudden de-pressurization of the cabin risking more lives.So with this type of ammunition,how on earth will they be able to take down tangos who wear concealed soft-body armour?
Thanks for your replies/comments.
AMU is carefully select and periodary check to ensure they are of sound minds. As for pistols with special ammunition is need so that the bullet will not over penetrate and shoot open a hole that cause lost of cabin pressure that can bring down the plane. In fact the proceduer of assualt team tactics is very well known, there is a lot of books on it. The SOP of pilots is also standard. -
1) naturally the marshals must be and will be psychologically screened and tested and 'maintained'.
2) you do not use FMJ rds in airplane or places with high-P containers. dats why some magazines got red tape, some yellow tape.
3) the marshal is not really distinct like the yankees one, therefore if got terrorist then element of surprise is on the marshal's side.
4) regarding detonation of bombs....think of it this way....better to bomb the plane up than crash it into a building, causing more death....the terrorists will more likely want to drive the plane into a building to cause more casualties, not just destroy the plane inflight. -
I guess the answer to your last question would to shoot the tangos in the head.
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If I remembered it correctly, there was a case in which an unarmed chinese air marshal stopped a hijacking incident with only a pair of chop sticks.
With regards to the so-called ongoing debate in the U.S over the issue of AMU, they all know the reason is due to international air law that forbids regular cops from carrying arms onboard aircrafts. However, their main debate was more about domestic flight within the U.S.
With so much talk about going for head shots, 1 should try standing on a moving platform with confine space & then shoot at a watermelon 25m away. Its not as easy as a stable platform.
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aiyah, u play game is very easy to HS cos the head don't turn, don't tilt, don't move mah....in reality the head is always moving....Originally posted by John Ching:If I remembered it correctly, there was a case in which an unarmed chinese air marshal stopped a hijacking incident with only a pair of chop sticks.
With regards to the so-called ongoing debate in the U.S over the issue of AMU, they all know the reason is due to international air law that forbids regular cops from carrying arms onboard aircrafts. However, their main debate was more about domestic flight within the U.S.
With so much talk about going for head shots, 1 should try standing on a moving platform with confine space & then shoot at a watermelon 25m away. Its not as easy as a stable platform. -
Its not easy to take a tango down with a headshot in a heaving environment much like an aircraft.The AMU officers have alot to deal with,making sure their shots don't hit any of the passengers,don't hit vital parts of the plane,how to best end the situation and many others.Not forgetting the anxiety,nervousness,quick reflexes,fast thinking,practice of drills taught and so on....all this adds up and makes puttin a single round of ammunition into the tango's head nothing short of sheer skill and luck.
To be honest,have anyone thought why is it that tactical officers and in this sense AMU personnel go for centre-mass(body) shots?Simply because it has a larger surface area and thus is easier to hit.No doubt a single round to the head can cause death instantaneosly,what if the tango has a triggering device which requires him to constantly hold it down,and when pressure is released,cause an immediate explosion?
Thus its not as simple as what most people think here.You answer that to take a tango out,all you gotta do is put a round into his head if he has body armour,but have you considered all the factors.You are not in a range where everything is comfortable and you are in a controlled environment.Where if there is any screw-up,you can simply shout"Restart!"and everything will be back to normal.the real world is alot less forgiving.When shooting starts,what is the first reaction?People usually start running for cover,how do you put a good shot without getting those innocents injured?
Lastly,although AMU personnel do go through screening,it doesn't seem sufficient.As they are in a powerful position.And when you are powerful,you will feel invincible,and thread on a thin line of good and evil.
So ponder on buddies!!!
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ha, then wat abt policemen ? they carry arms over 12 hrs a day....even longer than most flights...then they are god ? maybe u do not know what is called job, sense of duty, they are deployed there, not they wish to be there, want to be there. they rather spend time with their family if not for the fact they need to earn $....Originally posted by SpecOps87:Its not easy to take a tango down with a headshot in a heaving environment much like an aircraft.The AMU officers have alot to deal with,making sure their shots don't hit any of the passengers,don't hit vital parts of the plane,how to best end the situation and many others.Not forgetting the anxiety,nervousness,quick reflexes,fast thinking,practice of drills taught and so on....all this adds up and makes puttin a single round of ammunition into the tango's head nothing short of sheer skill and luck.
To be honest,have anyone thought why is it that tactical officers and in this sense AMU personnel go for centre-mass(body) shots?Simply because it has a larger surface area and thus is easier to hit.No doubt a single round to the head can cause death instantaneosly,what if the tango has a triggering device which requires him to constantly hold it down,and when pressure is released,cause an immediate explosion?
Thus its not as simple as what most people think here.You answer that to take a tango out,all you gotta do is put a round into his head if he has body armour,but have you considered all the factors.You are not in a range where everything is comfortable and you are in a controlled environment.Where if there is any screw-up,you can simply shout"Restart!"and everything will be back to normal.the real world is alot less forgiving.When shooting starts,what is the first reaction?People usually start running for cover,how do you put a good shot without getting those innocents injured?
Lastly,although AMU personnel do go through screening,it doesn't seem sufficient.As they are in a powerful position.And when you are powerful,you will feel invincible,and thread on a thin line of good and evil.
So ponder on buddies!!!
its a liability to have arms with live rds with u...its a hussle, the weight, the toilet trip all is a hussle....u can't weight to return it to armour and FO...in army u all carry rifles for how long ? i do 1 month duty carry the arms with live rds longer than most NSFs carrying SAR-21/M-16 with live rds. from other people's point of view, having an arm with you is majiam very gungho lah....'powerful' lah....from the carrier's point of view, he will want to quickly return it and go home. -
Its not that I do not understand.I handled my fair share of live ammo too.Although its at the range,still feel stressed.Missing one round,get screwed,things can go wrong.Lots of factors come into play.Honestly,I enjoy shooting,but the pressure of handling live ammo,makes one realise how important it is to follow instructions to the letter.After 2-3 times,used to it liaoz.So I do understand how it feels,but you cannot deny the fact that being armed,does make one feel powerful.
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at 1st maybe lah but if u draw arms almost daily then its just a routine. ask any PO if they feel more powerful, they will tell u the same thing.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Its not that I do not understand.I handled my fair share of live ammo too.Although its at the range,still feel stressed.Missing one round,get screwed,things can go wrong.Lots of factors come into play.Honestly,I enjoy shooting,but the pressure of handling live ammo,makes one realise how important it is to follow instructions to the letter.After 2-3 times,used to it liaoz.So I do understand how it feels,but you cannot deny the fact that being armed,does make one feel powerful. -
Hmm! You're already boosting how powerful you are, carrying arms & live rounds in your 1 month duty against NSFs.Originally posted by chunyong:ha, then wat abt policemen ? they carry arms over 12 hrs a day....even longer than most flights...then they are god ? maybe u do not know what is called job, sense of duty, they are deployed there, not they wish to be there, want to be there. they rather spend time with their family if not for the fact they need to earn $....
its a liability to have arms with live rds with u...its a hussle, the weight, the toilet trip all is a hussle....u can't weight to return it to armour and FO...in army u all carry rifles for how long ? i do 1 month duty carry the arms with live rds longer than most NSFs carrying SAR-21/M-16 with live rds. from other people's point of view, having an arm with you is majiam very gungho lah....'powerful' lah....from the carrier's point of view, he will want to quickly return it and go home.
But the topic is about AMU, how many flights do you think they fly in a week? How many rounds do you think they carry compared to your every day duty?
How many incident do AMU face in their line of duty that caused them to fear that they may have to use their firearem? How many time have you drawn your gun in the line of duty?
Have you taken a flight from Singapore to New York? Do you know how many hours that flight takes? Can you imagine what the AMU is mentally going through through out that flight in that confined space?
How many times have you got to face foreigners who are rude towards you but you're unable to be rude back to them?
I know alot of policemen as friends & most of them have pride in doing their job, ontop of earning the pay.
I also know a few AMU guys from U.S Marshal service, whom I shoot with & train with.
Lets not be too critical about whether either police or AMU job is tougher, its a bit disrespectful to the guys doing their job. -
u misunderstood my intention totally. i do not belittle the marshal, wat i trying to say to specops87 is dat although POs constantly have live rds with them, it doesn't make them more powerful at all.Originally posted by John Ching:Hmm! You're already boosting how powerful you are, carrying arms & live rounds in your 1 month duty against NSFs.
But the topic is about AMU, how many flights do you think they fly in a week? How many rounds do you think they carry compared to your every day duty?
How many incident do AMU face in their line of duty that caused them to fear that they may have to use their firearem? How many time have you drawn your gun in the line of duty?
Have you taken a flight from Singapore to New York? Do you know how many hours that flight takes? Can you imagine what the AMU is mentally going through through out that flight in that confined space?
How many times have you got to face foreigners who are rude towards you but you're unable to be rude back to them?
I know alot of policemen as friends & most of them have pride in doing their job, ontop of earning the pay.
I also know a few AMU guys from U.S Marshal service, whom I shoot with & train with.
Lets not be too critical about whether either police or AMU job is tougher, its a bit disrespectful to the guys doing their job. 
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My mistake!Originally posted by chunyong:u misunderstood my intention totally. i do not belittle the marshal, wat i trying to say to specops87 is dat although POs constantly have live rds with them, it doesn't make them more powerful at all. 
I get work up when I hear people belittle men who do what must be done to keep others safe.
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Understand, you say.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Its not that I do not understand.I handled my fair share of live ammo too.Although its at the range,still feel stressed.
Missing one round,get screwed,things can go wrong.
So I do understand how it feels,but you cannot deny the fact that being armed,does make one feel powerful.
Now, i shall proceed on the presumption that NCC instructors do not unnecessarily tekan you when you draw and return arms.
Now, here's a scenario.
Wake up 5.15.
Fall in 5.45.
March to cookhouse 5.50.
Breakfast. march to armskote around 6.20.
Draw arms.
Draw arms not fast enough/someone forgot to check clear/whatever, send arms.
Repeat draw arms process and add in some running around and pushing up.
Do this about 2 or 3 times.
Then you finally draw finish.
Not fun. Not fun at all.
Missing one round, go through the whole "I SHALL CHARGE YOU! SEVEN YEARS!" process can send one bonkers. I know, because i went through it.
Being armed with an empty weapon? Powerful. Oh yeah.
Being armed with an loaded weapon? Powerful!
"SEVEN YEARS IF YOU MISFIRE. I MAKE SURE I CHARGE U, UNNERSTAND, CHOW REC???"
I feel so powerful. -
policework is shitjob....no matter where u are, which dept....unless u are high ranking...other than dat, its shitty stuff...Originally posted by John Ching:My mistake!
I get work up when I hear people belittle men who do what must be done to keep others safe. 
if u have to draw arm, its shittest job liao -
Don't worry, BUSH won 4 more years as President of the United States of America. That means you'll have a chance within the next 4 years to shoot a terrorist. Yeehah!Originally posted by chunyong:policework is shitjob....no matter where u are, which dept....unless u are high ranking...other than dat, its shitty stuff...
if u have to draw arm, its shittest job liao
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he won liao meh ? sure got recount one...i bet all my fortune on his defeat...HE MUST LOSE !Originally posted by John Ching:Don't worry, BUSH won 4 more years as President of the United States of America. That means you'll have a chance within the next 4 years to shoot a terrorist. Yeehah! -
Well, my friend, then you're going to loose your fortune. Current vote have not included U.S troops in Iraq & Afhganistan. And I know for sure that the U.S military is all the way behind the President.Originally posted by chunyong:he won liao meh ? sure got recount one...i bet all my fortune on his defeat...HE MUST LOSE !
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I think Bush is quite a controversial president.Imagine when he was informed of the Sept 11 incident by his aides,he did not react immediately and continued to read to a little ger at some kindergarden.It shows he does not realise the significance of the attacks.I mean which leader will not react with immediate effect upon hearing such a piece of news.
Anyway back to the topic,during my range,got some kookoo from Catholic High who after declaring that he had no live rounds/empty cartridges on him was found to have a live unfired round.He was screwed upside dwn by the SAF 2WO,the Range Conducting Officer,his school CO and Central COmmandant.Luckily he's in NCC,but parents and school also kena letter all that.In SAF i'm certain it would be worst.So please forgive me if the way my postings earlier on offended or belittled anyone. -
well, maybe some were thinking 'd@mn ! i could be at home with my kids if not for this Bush guy who calls for war and we are still searching for the so-called WOMD !'Originally posted by John Ching:Well, my friend, then you're going to loose your fortune. Current vote have not included U.S troops in Iraq & Afhganistan. And I know for sure that the U.S military is all the way behind the President.
i got a friend in valparaiso, IN...he supports Bush too....d@mn ! -
Put it this way.Originally posted by SpecOps87:I think Bush is quite a controversial president.Imagine when he was informed of the Sept 11 incident by his aides,he did not react immediately and continued to read to a little ger at some kindergarden.It shows he does not realise the significance of the attacks.I mean which leader will not react with immediate effect upon hearing such a piece of news.
Anyway back to the topic,during my range,got some kookoo from Catholic High who after declaring that he had no live rounds/empty cartridges on him was found to have a live unfired round.He was screwed upside dwn by the SAF 2WO,the Range Conducting Officer,his school CO and Central COmmandant.Luckily he's in NCC,but parents and school also kena letter all that.In SAF i'm certain it would be worst.So please forgive me if the way my postings earlier on offended or belittled anyone.
You are sitting there surfing net/watching TV.
You get the news.
You see the picture.
What is your reaction?
FYI, a whole lot of US Army personnel gabra all over the shop when they heard the news. In effect a large amount of americans were stunted for that day.
What did you expect him to do, really? Jump up and say "Ok we're gonna run for NEACP!"
Yes it will be worse.
SEVEN YEARS DB.
You get that drilled into you. -
Sen. John Kerry has conceded the Presidential race to Bush at 0000hrs local time as reported by CNN.Originally posted by chunyong:well, maybe some were thinking 'd@mn ! i could be at home with my kids if not for this Bush guy who calls for war and we are still searching for the so-called WOMD !'
i got a friend in valparaiso, IN...he supports Bush too....d@mn !
Well, your friend ain't the only 1 who misses home but as long as theres a job to do, someones got to make the sacrifice.