http://www.hkpro.com/psg1.htmOriginally posted by chunyong:who cares who comes first, the rifles are identical, except the trigger area.



I agree with you that SpecOps have important roles in the suppression of AD. But i believe what StoryWolf mean is that especially in Singapore case, SOF troops for SEAD after the start of war may not the best solution as the SAF require frequent airstrikes, the mobility of SOF troops in enemy terrain to flush out AD pieces might not be able to match up the frequency of our airforce. Anyway, it is best to plant SOF troops behind enemy lines to flush out AD pieces before the start of war than after the start of war.Originally posted by Johnston:1) SpecOps teams targeting Iraqi AA EW-Systems and radar batteries
2) USAF MH-53J Pave Lowes leading
3) AH-64 Apache attack helos
4) F-117A
psg-1 is wellknown for its grip which is unique and the buttstock also...and its one of the most accurate semi longrange rifle also...but best is still AI's....no horse run.Originally posted by Johnston:http://www.hkpro.com/psg1.htm
http://www.hkpro.com/msg90.htm
http://www.hkpro.com/msg3.htm
PSG1 = 25.6 inch cold hammer forged polygonal rifled barrel, a strengthened receiver to minimize torque, the famous (and heavy) PSG1 fully adjustable buttstock, and a clip on trigger group with wooden handle adjustable for hand size.
MSG90 = PSG1 trigger group, with light 3 lb. trigger pull, stock adjustable for height and pull, though smaller and lighter than the PSG1 buttstock.
Also, unlike the PSG, the scope mount is removable and the rifle can be purchased with or without the standard scope offered by HK. It features a newer scope mount that is found on only a few of the HK rifles, as compared to the more conventional claw mounts. You will find this mount on the MSG90, the HK21E and 23E and the now out of production G41 series. The muzzle of the barrel features a weight to aid in the harmonic stabilization of barrel whip for enhanced accuracy.
MSG3 = The MSG3 is a rare variant of the G3 rifle that was made expressly for the Deutsche Bundeswehr (German Army) The most noticeable difference is the long barrel. (23.35 inches)
yes all of them are identical.
True my friend. It is a combine effort. However SOF and grunt are extremely useful is flushing those that are unseen by SEAD aircraft and need not say, they provide good intelligence.Originally posted by LazerLordz:We still need air-based SEAD sorties.SOF and grunts cannot carry this out by themselves.
You originally said "who cares who comes first, the rifles are identical, except the trigger area."Originally posted by chunyong:psg-1 is wellknown for its grip which is unique and the buttstock also...and its one of the most accurate semi longrange rifle also...but best is still AI's....no horse run.



While I also agree that the best option is to destroy all anti-aircraft assets in the entire theater, that might not be feasible given time, economical or capability constrains. So I thought the best way out was to concentrate all resources on certain interdiction routes, making it safer for other aircrafts.Originally posted by foxtrout8:All in all, i cant realli think of any instances in which the force ceteris paribus, chose not to completely neutralise but just open corridors despite them having to know the threat and their capability to hit it.
Yes I am telling you that Artillery Bns cannot fire missions to destory the enemy's Shorad and v-shorads defenses ! The reason is because the enemy AA are not there for show, they are there to protect something important like enemy tanks BNs and artillery BNs too ! You can just move your artillery close to shoot, without getting kick in the asses by the ground units ! That is why the SEAD mission is for, to remove AA defense then use aircraft to take out enemy ground unit, before your artillery units or armour move forward !Originally posted by Johnston::/
Air defence ranges all the way from the rifleman firing his rifle at a helicopter, to very large SAM systems that have ranges over a hundred clicks.
Are you presuming to tell me that Artillery Bns cannot fire missions to destroy the enemy's SHORAD and V-SHORAD defenses?
That's a load of bull, because such systems have ranges of up to ten klicks.
And as such, they often accompany the forward echelons.
I think?
No i don't think.
I know.
I know for a fact that contrary to previous published arguments that the F-117A's penetrated Iraq all on their own during Gulf War 1, they were preceded by
1) SpecOps teams targeting Iraqi AA EW-Systems and radar batteries
2) USAF MH-53J Pave Lowes leading
3) AH-64 Apache attack helos
4) F-117A
SpecOps may have important roles in the suppression of AD but will be limited.Originally posted by foxtrout8:I agree with you that SpecOps have important roles in the suppression of AD. But i believe what StoryWolf mean is that especially in Singapore case, SOF troops for SEAD after the start of war may not the best solution as the SAF require frequent airstrikes, the mobility of SOF troops in enemy terrain to flush out AD pieces might not be able to match up the frequency of our airforce. Anyway, it is best to plant SOF troops behind enemy lines to flush out AD pieces before the start of war than after the start of war.
I disagree with you Storywolf.Originally posted by storywolf:SpecOps may have important roles in the suppression of AD but will be limited.
Thinking that Iraq Scub hunting is like hunting for ADs is totally wrong concept. First the scuds are playing hide and seek, they are not there to defence anything, so that area doesn't have concentration of enemy, thus allowing SpecOp to run around freely.
As all of you already know, the U.S has many Spec Ops units at their diposal to carry out whatever ops. During the 1st Gulf war, the fact was no 1 knew how to deploy all this Spec Ops. It was te Brits SAS that suggested to the U.S ally Commander Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf that they volunteer for the Scud hunting missions. Of, SAS having clsoe ties with their U.S counter parts, D-boys were included into the hunt.Originally posted by Laplace:Wasn't it reported somewhere that SOFs were deployed with anti-material high powered sniper rifles to take out Iraqi anti-air radar dishes during the Gulf War?
If so how effective were these missions?
Not that I intend on joining in the girlie fight but its almost true that H&K sniper rifles look alike.Originally posted by Johnston:yes all of them are identical.
msg is a 'toned down' version of psg-1. if u need quite rapid and long range accuracy, psg-1 is the one....other than dat...its AI....Originally posted by John Ching:Not that I intend on joining in the girlie fight but its almost true that H&K sniper rifles look alike.
PSG 1 looks like MSG 90
MSG 90A1 looks like MSG 3
However, I think their differences are really base on their deployment purpose. They may look like sniper rifle system but they can also be marksman rifle.![]()
mmm...can a hole in a radar dish totally kill the capabilities of that radar?Originally posted by Laplace:Wasn't it reported somewhere that SOFs were deployed with anti-material high powered sniper rifles to take out Iraqi anti-air radar dishes during the Gulf War?
If so how effective were these missions?
Yes SOF is train to sabotage, even heavily guarded . They may be better train and better armed, but they are still human !Originally posted by foxtrout8:I disagree with you Storywolf.
Dun mistaken me by using the Scud hunters as an inspiration to my idea. You are having an arguement that my idea of using SOF troops is not ideal because AA pieces will be heavily guarded by enemy troops. I think your arguement have some faults because all of us know that SOF troops are trained to sabotage fixed or unfixed targets eventhough they are heavily protected. If in anycase SOF will not be called for action just because most of the targets are heavily guarded and friendly airstrikes can settle the problems, must as well stop training such troops in sabotage missions that they are so familar in.
My two cents.
What does "toned down" mean?Originally posted by chunyong:msg is a 'toned down' version of psg-1. if u need quite rapid and long range accuracy, psg-1 is the one....other than dat...its AI....
He meant, after some checking up at Hkpro.com or something similar, that the main difference between PSG1 and MSG90 is their cost.Originally posted by John Ching:What does "toned down" mean?
Isn't it still a rifle? Doesn't it have a trigger?
:
Are you aware what the definition of SHORAD and V-SHORAD AD systems are?Originally posted by storywolf:Yes I am telling you that Artillery Bns cannot fire missions to destory the enemy's Shorad and v-shorads defenses ! The reason is because the enemy AA are not there for show, they are there to protect something important like enemy tanks BNs and artillery BNs too ! You can just move your artillery close to shoot, without getting kick in the asses by the ground units ! That is why the SEAD mission is for, to remove AA defense then use aircraft to take out enemy ground unit, before your artillery units or armour move forward !
Yes, I would die immediately from the bullets of modern arms. But the poor SAF rifleman would die slowly from lead poisonning.Originally posted by Johnston:Yes, and a Revolutionary war era Muzzleloader rifle is also a rifle.
If you took one and tried to shoot it out with a SAF rifleman, he could pump his whole webbing load of magazines at you before you could load and fire.
yes, but starting from an weapon empty position, with ammo on your webbing, you could not possibly load your muzzle loader fast enough to shoot the rifleman.Originally posted by John Ching:Yes, I would die immediately from the bullets of modern arms. But the poor SAF rifleman would die slowly from lead poisonning.
:
Hmm! You never state that in your earlier post.Originally posted by Johnston:yes, but starting from an weapon empty position, with ammo on your webbing, you could not possibly load your muzzle loader fast enough to shoot the rifleman.
load. chamber. safety off.
shoot.
how many steps you need for a muzzleloader?
msg performs almost as well as psg-1...but psg-1's tripod not very gd....msg-90 also. SR25 is rather famous and popular now. best is still AI....HK is gd for g36 and mp-5 and usp series...other than dat, its other stuff are way overpriced, especially psg-1.Originally posted by John Ching:What does "toned down" mean?
Isn't it still a rifle? Doesn't it have a trigger?
Whatever your meaning maybe, for long range & accuracy, I'll stick to a single-shot bolt action sniper rifle system of whatever brand. No offence to the boys of H&K but their semi-auto rifles are costly & heavy.
However, if I do need to use a semi-auto sniper rifle system, I'll most likely go for stoner's SR25. The cost is about USD$2,500. And its made in the good ol' U.S of As.![]()