SEAD
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http://www.hkpro.com/psg1.htmOriginally posted by chunyong:who cares who comes first, the rifles are identical, except the trigger area.
http://www.hkpro.com/msg90.htm
http://www.hkpro.com/msg3.htm
PSG1 = 25.6 inch cold hammer forged polygonal rifled barrel, a strengthened receiver to minimize torque, the famous (and heavy) PSG1 fully adjustable buttstock, and a clip on trigger group with wooden handle adjustable for hand size.
MSG90 = PSG1 trigger group, with light 3 lb. trigger pull, stock adjustable for height and pull, though smaller and lighter than the PSG1 buttstock.
Also, unlike the PSG, the scope mount is removable and the rifle can be purchased with or without the standard scope offered by HK. It features a newer scope mount that is found on only a few of the HK rifles, as compared to the more conventional claw mounts. You will find this mount on the MSG90, the HK21E and 23E and the now out of production G41 series. The muzzle of the barrel features a weight to aid in the harmonic stabilization of barrel whip for enhanced accuracy.
MSG3 = The MSG3 is a rare variant of the G3 rifle that was made expressly for the Deutsche Bundeswehr (German Army) The most noticeable difference is the long barrel. (23.35 inches)
yes all of them are identical. -
I agree with you that SpecOps have important roles in the suppression of AD. But i believe what StoryWolf mean is that especially in Singapore case, SOF troops for SEAD after the start of war may not the best solution as the SAF require frequent airstrikes, the mobility of SOF troops in enemy terrain to flush out AD pieces might not be able to match up the frequency of our airforce. Anyway, it is best to plant SOF troops behind enemy lines to flush out AD pieces before the start of war than after the start of war.Originally posted by Johnston:1) SpecOps teams targeting Iraqi AA EW-Systems and radar batteries
2) USAF MH-53J Pave Lowes leading
3) AH-64 Apache attack helos
4) F-117A -
psg-1 is wellknown for its grip which is unique and the buttstock also...and its one of the most accurate semi longrange rifle also...but best is still AI's....no horse run.Originally posted by Johnston:http://www.hkpro.com/psg1.htm
http://www.hkpro.com/msg90.htm
http://www.hkpro.com/msg3.htm
PSG1 = 25.6 inch cold hammer forged polygonal rifled barrel, a strengthened receiver to minimize torque, the famous (and heavy) PSG1 fully adjustable buttstock, and a clip on trigger group with wooden handle adjustable for hand size.
MSG90 = PSG1 trigger group, with light 3 lb. trigger pull, stock adjustable for height and pull, though smaller and lighter than the PSG1 buttstock.
Also, unlike the PSG, the scope mount is removable and the rifle can be purchased with or without the standard scope offered by HK. It features a newer scope mount that is found on only a few of the HK rifles, as compared to the more conventional claw mounts. You will find this mount on the MSG90, the HK21E and 23E and the now out of production G41 series. The muzzle of the barrel features a weight to aid in the harmonic stabilization of barrel whip for enhanced accuracy.
MSG3 = The MSG3 is a rare variant of the G3 rifle that was made expressly for the Deutsche Bundeswehr (German Army) The most noticeable difference is the long barrel. (23.35 inches)
yes all of them are identical. -
We still need air-based SEAD sorties.SOF and grunts cannot carry this out by themselves.
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True my friend. It is a combine effort. However SOF and grunt are extremely useful is flushing those that are unseen by SEAD aircraft and need not say, they provide good intelligence.Originally posted by LazerLordz:We still need air-based SEAD sorties.SOF and grunts cannot carry this out by themselves.
What happen in Kosovo was that, those SAM pieces (largely the mobile ones) that are difficult to track almost single handledly cause the SAM crisis there. So u see, for such systems which can pose great threat to our aircraft, we need grunts to be down there to flush them out, sometimes even before a major sortie can begin. As i had said before, it is best that they enter and locate the tangos before the war and make the destruction of those systems (together with other crucial pieces) the declaration for ultimo ratio regis. -
You originally said "who cares who comes first, the rifles are identical, except the trigger area."Originally posted by chunyong:psg-1 is wellknown for its grip which is unique and the buttstock also...and its one of the most accurate semi longrange rifle also...but best is still AI's....no horse run.
I refuted that.
You came out with a MINDEF Press Release which tells us nothing.
I may be losing ground on the SEAD front, but darn right i can still hold it on the HK front.
Hold a second on the "Unique PSG-1 grip".
Hey. It's unique. Very unique. -
While I also agree that the best option is to destroy all anti-aircraft assets in the entire theater, that might not be feasible given time, economical or capability constrains. So I thought the best way out was to concentrate all resources on certain interdiction routes, making it safer for other aircrafts.Originally posted by foxtrout8:All in all, i cant realli think of any instances in which the force ceteris paribus, chose not to completely neutralise but just open corridors despite them having to know the threat and their capability to hit it.
At least, that's what I think the Coalition did in the first Gulf War and Bosnia.
Then again I might think wrong. -
Yes I am telling you that Artillery Bns cannot fire missions to destory the enemy's Shorad and v-shorads defenses ! The reason is because the enemy AA are not there for show, they are there to protect something important like enemy tanks BNs and artillery BNs too ! You can just move your artillery close to shoot, without getting kick in the asses by the ground units ! That is why the SEAD mission is for, to remove AA defense then use aircraft to take out enemy ground unit, before your artillery units or armour move forward !Originally posted by Johnston::/
Air defence ranges all the way from the rifleman firing his rifle at a helicopter, to very large SAM systems that have ranges over a hundred clicks.
Are you presuming to tell me that Artillery Bns cannot fire missions to destroy the enemy's SHORAD and V-SHORAD defenses?
That's a load of bull, because such systems have ranges of up to ten klicks.
And as such, they often accompany the forward echelons.
I think?
No i don't think.
I know.
I know for a fact that contrary to previous published arguments that the F-117A's penetrated Iraq all on their own during Gulf War 1, they were preceded by
1) SpecOps teams targeting Iraqi AA EW-Systems and radar batteries
2) USAF MH-53J Pave Lowes leading
3) AH-64 Apache attack helos
4) F-117A
Without suppressing the AA and take out enemy ground units, your artillery will not even last 10 mins after they fire their 1st rounds ! -
SpecOps may have important roles in the suppression of AD but will be limited.Originally posted by foxtrout8:I agree with you that SpecOps have important roles in the suppression of AD. But i believe what StoryWolf mean is that especially in Singapore case, SOF troops for SEAD after the start of war may not the best solution as the SAF require frequent airstrikes, the mobility of SOF troops in enemy terrain to flush out AD pieces might not be able to match up the frequency of our airforce. Anyway, it is best to plant SOF troops behind enemy lines to flush out AD pieces before the start of war than after the start of war.
Imagine, I put 6 AD batteries all around a huge jungle area! But you don't have exact fix on them, so you send in teams of SpecOps. 1st you need time to do insertion, of course will be inserted way outside the AD zone, so let say 10km out. SpecOps have to march 10km to place and then still have to search ! What I am saying is why the ADs are there in the 1st place, they must be defending some very important units like armor or infantries bns. So what the chance of your SpecOps wandering around and not engage any units ? even if they avoid everyone, how can they time their attack together, for once 1 AD is hit, the rest will be alerted to intruders.
What I am saying is in this case it is faster and easier to use SEAD planes to do the job. Imagine if you fly 3 helicopter to insert troops, I could have flown 2 SEAD mission already. By the time the troops moving to 10Km into zone, I would have flown a few more SEAD to take out the rest ADs already, and ground strikes can already hit enemy troops on the ground, with my armour and infantry Bns already move forward. I would instead use the SpecOps to look for the ground amour or infantry bns, to direct air strikes on them instead.
Thinking that Iraq Scub hunting is like hunting for ADs is totally wrong concept. First the scuds are playing hide and seek, they are not there to defence anything, so that area doesn't have concentration of enemy, thus allowing SpecOp to run around freely. -
I disagree with you Storywolf.Originally posted by storywolf:SpecOps may have important roles in the suppression of AD but will be limited.
Thinking that Iraq Scub hunting is like hunting for ADs is totally wrong concept. First the scuds are playing hide and seek, they are not there to defence anything, so that area doesn't have concentration of enemy, thus allowing SpecOp to run around freely.
Dun mistaken me by using the Scud hunters as an inspiration to my idea. You are having an arguement that my idea of using SOF troops is not ideal because AA pieces will be heavily guarded by enemy troops. I think your arguement have some faults because all of us know that SOF troops are trained to sabotage fixed or unfixed targets eventhough they are heavily protected. If in anycase SOF will not be called for action just because most of the targets are heavily guarded and friendly airstrikes can settle the problems, must as well stop training such troops in sabotage missions that they are so familar in.
My two cents. -
Wasn't it reported somewhere that SOFs were deployed with anti-material high powered sniper rifles to take out Iraqi anti-air radar dishes during the Gulf War?
If so how effective were these missions? -
yep, the xm107 super long range .50 calibre sniper rifles. seems they were so successful that the US army ordered an even larger calibre version. the xm107 holds the world record for a confirmed kill at 1700+ metres.
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As all of you already know, the U.S has many Spec Ops units at their diposal to carry out whatever ops. During the 1st Gulf war, the fact was no 1 knew how to deploy all this Spec Ops. It was te Brits SAS that suggested to the U.S ally Commander Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf that they volunteer for the Scud hunting missions. Of, SAS having clsoe ties with their U.S counter parts, D-boys were included into the hunt.Originally posted by Laplace:Wasn't it reported somewhere that SOFs were deployed with anti-material high powered sniper rifles to take out Iraqi anti-air radar dishes during the Gulf War?
If so how effective were these missions?
SEAL teams part of the play in the whole grand plan was to block of ships heading towards or out of Iraq. They also had their usual duty of beach recon. Plans changed when a SEAL officer came up with a plan that would ensure the safety of the MARINEs assualt by staging a diversion trick.
Green Berets were the most important Spec Ops for all the allies involved in the war. Because there weren't enough interpreters to communicate between the various ally forces, Green Berets were assigned to the various ally forces to act as interpreters & co-ordinators between the U.S forces & its allies.
At the end of the 1st Gulf war, Gen Norman Schwarzkopf gave a speech which gave glory to the Spec Ops( not just the U.S & Brits forces ) for their part in the war. -
Not that I intend on joining in the girlie fight but its almost true that H&K sniper rifles look alike.Originally posted by Johnston:yes all of them are identical.
PSG 1 looks like MSG 90
MSG 90A1 looks like MSG 3
However, I think their differences are really base on their deployment purpose. They may look like sniper rifle system but they can also be marksman rifle.
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msg is a 'toned down' version of psg-1. if u need quite rapid and long range accuracy, psg-1 is the one....other than dat...its AI....Originally posted by John Ching:Not that I intend on joining in the girlie fight but its almost true that H&K sniper rifles look alike.
PSG 1 looks like MSG 90
MSG 90A1 looks like MSG 3
However, I think their differences are really base on their deployment purpose. They may look like sniper rifle system but they can also be marksman rifle. -
mmm...can a hole in a radar dish totally kill the capabilities of that radar?Originally posted by Laplace:Wasn't it reported somewhere that SOFs were deployed with anti-material high powered sniper rifles to take out Iraqi anti-air radar dishes during the Gulf War?
If so how effective were these missions? -
Yes SOF is train to sabotage, even heavily guarded . They may be better train and better armed, but they are still human !Originally posted by foxtrout8:I disagree with you Storywolf.
Dun mistaken me by using the Scud hunters as an inspiration to my idea. You are having an arguement that my idea of using SOF troops is not ideal because AA pieces will be heavily guarded by enemy troops. I think your arguement have some faults because all of us know that SOF troops are trained to sabotage fixed or unfixed targets eventhough they are heavily protected. If in anycase SOF will not be called for action just because most of the targets are heavily guarded and friendly airstrikes can settle the problems, must as well stop training such troops in sabotage missions that they are so familar in.
My two cents.
SOF always need to prey on the enemy lapse in security and element of surprise. You can have one team hit one AD site, by then enemy is alerted, with the element of surprise lost and other teams will find themselves hard to sabotage the rest of the ADs.
What my other point which you totally ignore it timing. Using SpecOps team cost more time ! -
the use of snipers to counter these threats lies with the sniper's ability to take out important sections of the unit, such as officers, radar operators and maybe hardware such as generators. imagine a scenario where a enemy pilot is checking his helicopter. the sniper can choose to snipe the pilot, or send a bullet into the engine compartment, which effectively gorunds the helicopter. i believe snipers are trained in the vital areas of the radar so as to render it useless by hitting certain areas. of course, with the xm109 sniper rifle that the us army is using, the rifle can also penetrate armour and hit APCs.
http://www.barrettrifles.com/rifles.htm -
What does "toned down" mean?Originally posted by chunyong:msg is a 'toned down' version of psg-1. if u need quite rapid and long range accuracy, psg-1 is the one....other than dat...its AI....
Isn't it still a rifle? Doesn't it have a trigger?
Whatever your meaning maybe, for long range & accuracy, I'll stick to a single-shot bolt action sniper rifle system of whatever brand. No offence to the boys of H&K but their semi-auto rifles are costly & heavy.
However, if I do need to use a semi-auto sniper rifle system, I'll most likely go for stoner's SR25. The cost is about USD$2,500. And its made in the good ol' U.S of As. -
He meant, after some checking up at Hkpro.com or something similar, that the main difference between PSG1 and MSG90 is their cost.Originally posted by John Ching:What does "toned down" mean?
Isn't it still a rifle? Doesn't it have a trigger?
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Among other things.
Which are:
Nato standard scope mount, instead of permanent Hensoldt scope.
ambidextrous safety
different lower reciever (Not civilian legal, WHY)
Ambidextrous magazine release.
Yes, and a Revolutionary war era Muzzleloader rifle is also a rifle.
If you took one and tried to shoot it out with a SAF rifleman, he could pump his whole webbing load of magazines at you before you could load and fire. -
Are you aware what the definition of SHORAD and V-SHORAD AD systems are?Originally posted by storywolf:Yes I am telling you that Artillery Bns cannot fire missions to destory the enemy's Shorad and v-shorads defenses ! The reason is because the enemy AA are not there for show, they are there to protect something important like enemy tanks BNs and artillery BNs too ! You can just move your artillery close to shoot, without getting kick in the asses by the ground units ! That is why the SEAD mission is for, to remove AA defense then use aircraft to take out enemy ground unit, before your artillery units or armour move forward !
These range from:
20mm Vulcan/ZSU-23-4 SPAAG
Chapparal SP SAM system
Manportable SAMs such as the Stinger
Towed AA guns such as the ZSU-23-2
Vehicle mounted AA guns
Vehicle mounted short range SAMs.
We are not asking the artillery to attack the systems guarding the enemy arty assets, but the systems supporting the armor/infantry.
Last i saw, SAF FH-88 guns had a maximum range of 39 klicks (with ERFB-BB rounds of course). Did you think we'd be using Primuses and going up to engage them with direct fire?
I would not be saying "Arty SEAD missions" if such missions have not previously been fired, and recorded, and told about in lessons/field manuals.
Can you tell me, if artillery can be tasked to support a advance against armor, why it cannot be tasked to fire missions against the identified AA assets?
Finally:
Using SpecOps team cost more time !
Time, is what the attacker has a surfeit of.
We do not know now, if US SOCOM had inserted teams into Iraq prior to the first Iraq Gulf War.
But we DO know they had teams in country before the Second Gulf War.
We can presume that among other things, they were conducting reconnaisance and identifying key targets such as command complexes.
Who is to say that just before H-hour, they were ordered to disable any known radar complexes by firing a couple .50 HEAP rounds at said radar dish?
Or a missile or two.
The point im making now is that SEAD is a combined effort, everybody can do a part. Even the grunt. -
Yes, I would die immediately from the bullets of modern arms. But the poor SAF rifleman would die slowly from lead poisonning.Originally posted by Johnston:Yes, and a Revolutionary war era Muzzleloader rifle is also a rifle.
If you took one and tried to shoot it out with a SAF rifleman, he could pump his whole webbing load of magazines at you before you could load and fire.
Oh yes! For all you KERRY lovers, BUSH won!!! Yeehah!
4 more years of anti-terrorism. -
yes, but starting from an weapon empty position, with ammo on your webbing, you could not possibly load your muzzle loader fast enough to shoot the rifleman.Originally posted by John Ching:Yes, I would die immediately from the bullets of modern arms. But the poor SAF rifleman would die slowly from lead poisonning.
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load. chamber. safety off.
shoot.
how many steps you need for a muzzleloader? -
Hmm! You never state that in your earlier post.Originally posted by Johnston:yes, but starting from an weapon empty position, with ammo on your webbing, you could not possibly load your muzzle loader fast enough to shoot the rifleman.
load. chamber. safety off.
shoot.
how many steps you need for a muzzleloader?
Well, of course, logically I would be dead if the enemy soldier ambushes me. However, if its a fight on honorable terms, then outcome would be as stated in my earlier post.
Anyway, I just want to add that Sen. John Kerry has conceded the Presidential race to Bush. Yeehah! -
msg performs almost as well as psg-1...but psg-1's tripod not very gd....msg-90 also. SR25 is rather famous and popular now. best is still AI....HK is gd for g36 and mp-5 and usp series...other than dat, its other stuff are way overpriced, especially psg-1.Originally posted by John Ching:What does "toned down" mean?
Isn't it still a rifle? Doesn't it have a trigger?
Whatever your meaning maybe, for long range & accuracy, I'll stick to a single-shot bolt action sniper rifle system of whatever brand. No offence to the boys of H&K but their semi-auto rifles are costly & heavy.
However, if I do need to use a semi-auto sniper rifle system, I'll most likely go for stoner's SR25. The cost is about USD$2,500. And its made in the good ol' U.S of As.