How to defeat the SOF/STAR
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'Kids say the dumbest things' but 'adults do the dumbest things'.....sighOriginally posted by John Ching:Just for information, if anyone considered that the recent robber in S'pore was an idiot, you ought to read the following news;
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/13/consulate.standoff.ap/index.html -
hmm.. no offense taken hor. y specops87 so wu liao ..... i think this post is not v constructive actually... u think SOF or STAR unit come this forum to read ur post for countermeasure improvement meh.. and i think u r not in army yet right... u r only in ncc now... i think u r going to be super garang when u go inOriginally posted by SpecOps87:The train is stuck between two underground stations.And this will rule out fast-roping as there is no where to fast-rope from.The only way in and out is to use the tunnel or through manholes etc..So anyway out?
**This is not to undermine the capability of the SOF or STAR unit..But I hope they see this and improve on countermeasures which will greatly save the lives of the hostages and that of themselves.**
Lets say they have manage to disarm the claymores,how are you gonna stop getting yourself shot to shit by them?
haha..... -
why do you sae its not constructive?I'm just trying to push the scenarios of what some mad-ass tango will do.
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i think those in the Units that be have probably thought up of more wide ranging scenarios....trust me...but it was amusing to play ure scenario in my mind...although it would be dumb to take over an MRT train..Originally posted by SpecOps87:why do you sae its not constructive?I'm just trying to push the scenarios of what some mad-ass tango will do. -
Small Kids..
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Hey, how did I get dragged into the train?Originally posted by Icemoon:Come to think of it, why must SOF/STAR be the saviour of the day? After 9-11, flight passengers have no qualm battling it out with the terrorists on the plane, since they know doom is imminent. Perhaps our MRT passengers are like that also?
Maybe that day Military Nuts happen to have an outing and people like SpecOps87, chunyong, sidestep1984, storywolf all in the train. Then add in commandos like lion02, Gendaken etc. So when you all hear the terrorist plan, all shake your head. Even chunyong, who seems to be "in the know", also shake his head and mutter "our STAR cannot pull this off, definitely". And the commandos suddenly admit "Our SOF never execute this kind of rescue mission succesfully before."
Then how? All suddenly become very garang and fight it out with the terrorists? 
First, the "sudden bright light" scenario is exactly the situation that monocular NVGs are designed for - the eye that is not looking through the NVG is still good.
Second (qualifying this with the caveat that this is the theory), one of the original aims for instituting NS in Singapore is the diffusion of military-trained personnel throughout the population. The scenario quoted above may not be entirely unrealistic. As in the case of United 93, people can be capable of surprising things when the outlook is grim enough.
Third, the scenario hinges upon the terrorists getting what they demand - that's their Archilles heel and that's why pre-9/11 hijackings were a losing proposition. Think Entebbe, Mogadishu and the Achille Lauro - time was on the good guys' side and they didn't need to be in a rush to storm in. In order to get what they wanted, the terrorists would have to leave their prepared positions, and that's where they're weakest. The scanario is therefore moot - why try to hit them at their strongest point?
Fourth, just to entertain the idea of a storming at that time, flashbangs aren't the only pre-storming method of incapacitating Tangos, are they? The train's got speakers built in and can be used in place of the flashbangs' "bang" effect.
Apart from that, I can't say anything that nobody else has covered, or that won't be a breach of the OSA. -
IMO, the gov cant take risks of endangering the whole train full of passengers by sending in sof/star....prob stall for time, play waiting game with terrorists while doing intel on their options. Prob accede to their requests to get innocent out of harm's way before unleashing the sof/star on them. By then they'd prob tire out of the waiting game.
But if they were hardcore terrorists, wouldnt their main objective to jus blown off the whole train?
And rather discuss how we cld storm onto the train n rescue the passengers, we would probly wanna work on preventing that from happening in the first place.
ps: jus like reading the stuff u guys wrote....well been too bored what to do?! -
While we're on the HardCore Terrorist thingy.
Do remember Swordfish.
If the tangos are so clever to put bomb vests on their hostages....
Ah.
Imagine this.
Go ahead. Take the hostage. You take him away and he goes boom.
A really determined person would hose the train up and down, and leave plenty of carnage for the authorities to sweep up.
Hole yourself up in a train, underground, with avenues of escape likely sealed off?
This is NOT what you should do to defeat the SOF/STAR. -
[quote]Originally posted by SpecOps87:
[b]Hi guys,one interesting topic for thought.Can anyone share ways to defeat and counter the SOF's moves?
hi there..from your post, its obvious that gaming is ur game. stick to it! leave the problem to the cleaners.(if you know what i mean) -
i totally agreed with rosewood. leave the cleaning up to the cleaners. God knows who put up this discussion. let's not give any ideas to the bad guys. lots of people will die if all this were to happen. y don't we just keep our tactics while gaming on the pc. ok.
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I tihnk you guys have built up this almost mythical image of the SOF/STAR teams.
Fact is against a determind terrorist, the SOF will probably lose. The enemy is entrenched and prepared. The SOF is concerned about civilian lives. The enemy isnt.
The terrorist will only lose where they are afraid to die or where they have bad leadership and bad planning.
Lose here means to take down the terrorists w/o casualties.
If you have fanatical suicide bombers type who are prepared to die, your SOF will not help much.
Dealine for request, deadline pass kill 1/ 10mins. First sign of trouble BOOOM! all die. Sleep deprivation tactics? I kill.
SOF lan lan.
Kapish?
The SOF is trained to do this, so they have a higher chance of suceeding. But not always. -
Military SOF while preferring to accomplish a hostage rescure mission with hostage being free unharm doesn't necessarily have to do so if the situation does not allow for the survival of the hostages.Originally posted by lwflee:I tihnk you guys have built up this almost mythical image of the SOF/STAR teams.
Fact is against a determind terrorist, the SOF will probably lose. The enemy is entrenched and prepared. The SOF is concerned about civilian lives. The enemy isnt.
The terrorist will only lose where they are afraid to die or where they have bad leadership and bad planning.
Lose here means to take down the terrorists w/o casualties.
If you have fanatical suicide bombers type who are prepared to die, your SOF will not help much.
Dealine for request, deadline pass kill 1/ 10mins. First sign of trouble BOOOM! all die. Sleep deprivation tactics? I kill.
SOF lan lan.
Kapish?
The SOF is trained to do this, so they have a higher chance of suceeding. But not always.
Police SWAT, however, have to ensure the safety of the hostages at all time.
So if a suicide bomber, standing among hostages, is caught in cross-hair of a military sniper, he'll die irregardless of whether he would detonate or not. Thats why Russian forces rush the school even though children leaves were at stake. But did they succeed or did they failed? You'll have to look at it from every angle. -
You're quite right, of course. If a terrorist is on a suicide mission, there's not a lot you can do about it.Originally posted by lwflee:I tihnk you guys have built up this almost mythical image of the SOF/STAR teams.
Fact is against a determind terrorist, the SOF will probably lose. The enemy is entrenched and prepared. The SOF is concerned about civilian lives. The enemy isnt.
The terrorist will only lose where they are afraid to die or where they have bad leadership and bad planning.
Lose here means to take down the terrorists w/o casualties.
If you have fanatical suicide bombers type who are prepared to die, your SOF will not help much.
Dealine for request, deadline pass kill 1/ 10mins. First sign of trouble BOOOM! all die. Sleep deprivation tactics? I kill.
SOF lan lan.
Kapish?
The SOF is trained to do this, so they have a higher chance of suceeding. But not always.
However, I do believe that the scenario involves hostage-taking, in which case the objective of taking the hostage comes into play, and this gives negotiators and hostage rescue teams more free play. -
Hmm..having just read my post above, i realize that it sounds abit Guai Lan. Sorry bout that - it was posted in the wee hours of the morning..
Anyway, my point is that we shouldn't elevate the SOF to near mythical status. They are but men, albeit highly trained. When they go in, they are going into what is probably a lose-lose situation already. THe SQ terrorist are not what i call meticulous, disciplined or determind.
The Russian school yard incident illustrates my point. The Military were stumped and helpless in the face of terrorists which actually did some planinng and some preparation and had technical knowledlge of rigging bombs etc.
The military had to resort to trying to storm the building. 200 died. I would say the terr won in this case. They would have inflicted more if they had more explosives and if they had more knwoledge of demolitions.
Anyway the scenario given is not really that stoopid. If the terr were determind to die anyway, and their demand was for the release of their comrades etc and not for personal financial gain, then they couldnt have chosen a better place. Confined area + explosives = big headache. If they had knowlegde of structural stresses, then i imagine they could even engineer the tunnel for collapse. Even bigger headache. Also, if the terr uses the able bodied males in the train as negotiating chips, even better. The can't control too many anyway, and males may give them trouble. Use those ppl as a sign of goodwill, you retain say 150 old women, children, and weak women/men. At the same time you get rid of those that may pose a threat to you and may have some fight left. Further, the infirmed may be in need of madical care. You may then be able to use that to add more pressure.
And the qn of how to "repel" the SOF/STAR? Ans is to blow up the whole damn place. The fact that the government sent them in means that the govt doesn't want to negotiate. The best way then for the terr to cut "losses" is to kill everything in the train, including the SOF/STAR invovled.
- An Armchair Warrior. -
To be honest,I feel that the tangos these days are more disillusioned by their cause.And will stop at nothing to fulfill their mission.But then again,can the same thing be said with our CT teams and SF operators?I'm really curious...as Singapore have yet to encounter a heavily armed terrorist take down yet,which we can attribute to the stringent security measures we have in place.
But then again,if the ordinary trooper in SADA is to be faced with a scenario similar to what happened in Sept.11,and have a Boeing 747 flying toward him,will he be able to launch a missile to take the airliner down,tangos and innocent men,women and children of all ages? -
I don't think there's really all that much to worry about there. The SOF playbook is developed from the experience and with the assistance of proven units such as the SAS and GSG9. As for their level of training, their performance in overseas courses shows that they're up there with the best. From firsthand experience, I can tell you that these guys get recalled much more often than anybody else in the army, and they're ready all the time for a very wide range of different deployments and missions.Originally posted by SpecOps87:To be honest,I feel that the tangos these days are more disillusioned by their cause.And will stop at nothing to fulfill their mission.But then again,can the same thing be said with our CT teams and SF operators?I'm really curious...as Singapore have yet to encounter a heavily armed terrorist take down yet,which we can attribute to the stringent security measures we have in place.
Ultimately, such a fellow would have the fire order to fall back upon. In such a situation, you don't think about it, you just do it.Originally posted by SpecOps87:But then again,if the ordinary trooper in SADA is to be faced with a scenario similar to what happened in Sept.11,and have a Boeing 747 flying toward him,will he be able to launch a missile to take the airliner down,tangos and innocent men,women and children of all ages?
If you did have time to reflect upon it before shooting, you would logically come to the conclusion that everyone on the plane is a write-off either way - the only difference is how many more people get killed. -
Gedanken,I have to agree that our operators playbook follows the guidelines of proven CT units like SAS,GSG9 and so on.But don't you agree,that each and every hostage situation is different from the previous one?And there is no fixed way of ensuring that the tangos do not kill the hostages and themselves even if the demands are met right?Besides,so far there have been no hostage situation being carried out underground,in a train yet i belief.But do correct me if I'm wrong.(Post the webby link so we can analyse how the CT team involved fared)
Now since many say that the MRT hijack situation is a bad example...what about this:
Tangos have managed to take ver a school in Singapore,say ACS Independent.They chose the school as they have intel that the school have many students whose parents are influential interms of wealth and power in Singapore.And many are highly educated,and thus begin to pressure the relevant authorities to take action and save their kids.
Now the situation in the school is this:
The tangos sneaked in posing as contractors as the school is undergoing upgrading.
All entry and exit points in the school has been booby-trapped or are under survillenence by the security cameras placed in the school.The security cameras are watched by tangos to ensure no hanky-panky on the part of the security forces.Now,the students are rounded up and placed in the hall,but some are placed seperate from the other,in classrooms on the upper levels with the blinds drawn to prevent snipers from shooting at them.While another group is tied up and placed in the middle of the parade square,rigged with explosives.Any attempt to escape will cause it to blow,and there is a pair of tangos with their guns constantly trained on them,this group is in full-view of the media.A group is also placed tied up on the ceiling,any attempt of rescue will cause them to be shot too.**bare in mind,the only way onto the roof is by heli-rappeling or by the roof-access hatch which is guarded by the tangos.The adult staff of the school are placed seperate from the students,and when the security forces arrive to begin negotiations,the adults are used as bargaining chips.
Also,the hall where the students are held is rigged with explosives.And all stairs are either rigged with explosives or mined to prevent the possible take-over by security forces,leaving only one which will be used by the tangos.And this stair case is guarded as well,and rigged with a remote detonation device.And the remote device is controlled from the command centre where the survillence cameras can see what is goin on in most parts of the school.
Demands:
-US$100,000,000
-Prisoners being held by ISD
-Fellow tangos imprisoned by other countries in the region
-A safe passage to an undisclosed destination by sea.(Not by air as they are scared that the Air Force may be sent to blow them out of the sky)
Weapons/equipment of the tangos:
-Assault Rifles
-Sniper Rifles
-SMGs
-Pistols
-RPGs
-Grenades
-Semtex and C4 explosives
-Claymore and Bouncing Betty Mines
-Bullet-proof vests
-NVGs
You are the groundforce commander,presurred by the PM,your commanding officer,the CDF,COA,parents,various ministries etc...what are you going to do? -
Short answer, you've got two choices. Either leave it to the negotiators to bore the terrorists to death, or storm the building with the assumption that losses are unavoidable and that you job is just to keep the number as low as possible while ensuring a bunch of 100% dead tangos.
If it helps you sleep better at night, think about how much work it would take for the setup you described. If upgrading is in progress, it will not be across the whole school grounds. If the work was on such a scale, it would be done at a time when the students weren't there. Also, the work would be supervised - you know how sticky customers can get about having work done that they haven't ordered. Also, you're probably going to need up to a platoon strength of terrorists just to keep track of all the students in all those locations. Overall, it's an unlikely scenario. Besides, regardless of how influential the parents are, there's not much they can do to the government if the government's done everything within its power to resolve the situation. -
Great answer Ged!
SpecOps enemy seems to be state-sponsered. Its not that easy to get that kind of material. Even if you do, your operatives have to be technically trained to an exceptional degree.
How do you get such men? Where do their motivation come from? SG is a friendly state. Its awful hard to find enough peeps with that kind of agenda. And this is the reality, not a half-hashed scenario. -
Even friendly people get killed.Its a reality.I mean who knows how desperate can some peopl get right?
And the scenario/s i have posted is not to counter wat the SOF/STAR team are trained for.But don't you agree,at some point of time,the enemy may strike in an unconventional way? -
Sure they could - just look at 9/11. Doesn't mean that there's a zero-loss solution for everything, though.
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SpecOp87 your scenario is very contrived leh. Maybe the discussion will be more fruitful if you base the scenario on actual incidents.
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No need to crack ur noodle. Just push someone off the platform during rush hour and MRT grinds to halt, that'll put enuff fear in commuters to make travel by MRT like playing russian roulette. Happens in NY, when everyone hears of an accident, it becomes jumper or victim?Originally posted by SpecOps87:why do you sae its not constructive?I'm just trying to push the scenarios of what some mad-ass tango will do.
BTW singapore policy no negoiations, see game theory analysis of SQ highjack. Sgp stance always shoot first. That will make Tangos desparate but leaves no room to compromise or win any 'moral victory'. Sgpeans generally support quick decisive actions whatever the cost, no hostages no prisoners. -
It's easy to defeat the SOF/STAR if your intention is to die with them... however, it would be a bigger challenge to capture them during the raid alive. Then maybe humiliate them by making them do an Abu Ghraib on national TV or something...
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ha, hard lah....they will fight to the very end one...u think will let u capture ? if really no bullets still got a blade to fight til the end with u one......mai siao siao.Originally posted by RussianPower:It's easy to defeat the SOF/STAR if your intention is to die with them... however, it would be a bigger challenge to capture them during the raid alive. Then maybe humiliate them by making them do an Abu Ghraib on national TV or something...