How to defeat the SOF/STAR
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Oh my! Are you saying that the Singapore Armed Forces is still being trained by the IDF?Originally posted by Gedanken:So you're telling me that the Israelis stand around like John Wayne returning fire? Either you're wrong, or |<--- Zapped on request of Gedanken --->|.
You overestimate the effect of suppressing fire. It only scares the sniper off if it's too close for comfort. If your guys are missing him by 25 metres and he runs, he's not much of a sniper, is he?
Besides, while if the bugger's three floors up, you're going to present the same-sized target if you're standing or proning, you present a smaller target proning if he's on the same level as you. Common sense, isn't it?
Ah! You've underestimated the effects of a proper suppresive fire power. A sniper may be confident about his hide but he's definately not stupid. If impressive firepower is being fired in his general direction but missing him by 25m, he need not have to run but he would not be dumb to keep his head up either.
You obviously have yet to be on a 3 story platform looking down through a scope at a target thats prone, kneeling & standing. Otherwise you'll know there is a difference, common sense or not. -
Oh my! Are you saying that the Singapore Armed Forces is still being trained by the IDF?Originally posted by Gedanken:So you're telling me that the Israelis stand around like John Wayne returning fire? Either you're wrong, or [color=red]|<--- Zapped on request of Gedanken's concern with security --->|.
You overestimate the effect of suppressing fire. It only scares the sniper off if it's too close for comfort. If your guys are missing him by 25 metres and he runs, he's not much of a sniper, is he?
Besides, while if the bugger's three floors up, you're going to present the same-sized target if you're standing or proning, you present a smaller target proning if he's on the same level as you. Common sense, isn't it?
Ah! You've underestimated the effects of a proper suppresive fire power. A sniper may be confident about his hide but he's definately not stupid. If impressive firepower is being fired in his general direction but missing him by 25m, he need not have to run but he would not be dumb to keep his head up either.
You obviously have yet to be on a 3 story platform looking down through a scope at a target thats prone, kneeling & standing. Otherwise you'll know there is a difference, common sense or not. -
You want to tell us about your personal experience - of sniping and the likes of it?Originally posted by John Ching:Oh my! Are you saying that the Singapore Armed Forces is still being trained by the IDF?
Ah! You've underestimated the effects of a proper suppresive fire power. A sniper may be confident about his hide but he's definately not stupid. If impressive firepower is being fired in his general direction but missing him by 25m, he need not have to run but he would not be dumb to keep his head up either.
You obviously have yet to be on a 3 story platform looking down through a scope at a target thats prone, kneeling & standing. Otherwise you'll know there is a difference, common sense or not. -
extreme angle shooting is not dat easyOriginally posted by bcoy:You want to tell us about your personal experience - of sniping and the likes of it? -
I think your asking that questions says it all, John.Originally posted by John Ching:Oh my! Are you saying that the Singapore Armed Forces is still being trained by the IDF? -
just watch a british tv series, available on dvd i believe, called 'Ultimate Force'.
It shows how the SAS do it for real.
amazing!
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Well, as much as I would like to brag about my own experience inorder to justify my points, its actually more pointless to do so.Originally posted by bcoy:You want to tell us about your personal experience - of sniping and the likes of it?
However, I would say is that the number of so-called Iraqi snipers are not even Iraqis. Most of them are foreign nationals who have trainning in their own countries, either military or militia.
Oh yes! Most of them( Iraqi snipers ) are using dragunov SVD, at least thats what have been recovered so far.
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Its a drama series dude...Originally posted by zoik:just watch a british tv series, available on dvd i believe, called 'Ultimate Force'.
It shows how the SAS do it for real.
amazing! -
I see, you insist on assuming that my explaination of the anti-ambush or counter snipers drill is done with crash test dummies in mind.Originally posted by Gedanken:So you're telling me that the Israelis stand around like John Wayne returning fire? I have experience with senior IDF staff that is the complete opposite of what you've just written, but unfortunately that stuff's covered by OSA.
Besides, while if the bugger's three floors up, you're going to present the same-sized target if you're standing or proning, you present a smaller target proning if he's on the same level as you. Common sense, isn't it?
Between trying to find the sniper and making less of a target of myself, I'll pick being scarce as a target, thank you very much.
By the way, John Wayne did a movie on the Green Berets so theres a place in most GBs for JW, insulting him would get you no where.
Ah! Like most SpecOps, always claiming to have done something but can't elaborate on the grounds of security reasons. Hmm! If you've had trainning by senior IDF staff then you're likely to be an officer huh! I've not been trained by them though I have exchange knowledge with a number of their NCOs.
Well, I've already explained in an earlier post about the raised platform issue so I'm not going to explain again. But I would again ask you to give it a shot from a platform looking down, across at a target from 50 to 100 m. Do it at different hours of the day.
Hell, any sane man would be scare in a situation where the possibility of death is as good as 100% but what makes a soldier different is his ability to control his fear & use it as a fuel for survival. Give into fear & you'll sure to die.
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Ah! Finally, someone who understands even though 3 story platform isn't exactly that difficult to shoot out to a target. It does have its challenges in a place like Iraq with its climate.Originally posted by chunyong:extreme angle shooting is not dat easy -
I understand from my friend its a sensitive issue so I won't assume or probe on it, unless you care to clarify on the subject.Originally posted by Gedanken:I think your asking that questions says it all, John. -
the nearer the target and the taller the sniper is located at, the harder it is to shoot....cos u can't just prone down and shoot, u have to squat or sit which means u are not as balanced liaoOriginally posted by John Ching:Ah! Finally, someone who understands even though 3 story platform isn't exactly that difficult to shoot out to a target. It does have its challenges in a place like Iraq with its climate. -
You do realise that John Wayne himself regretted making that movie, don't you? If it helps you sleep any better at night, replace John Wayne with Wyatt Earp, Audie Murphy, Sylvester Stallone or whoever - it really doesn't matter.Originally posted by John Ching:I see, you insist on assuming that my explaination of the anti-ambush or counter snipers drill is done with crash test dummies in mind.
By the way, John Wayne did a movie on the Green Berets so theres a place in most GBs for JW, insulting him would get you no where.
Well if you don't know the limits imposed by OSA, then you're the one showing that you're talking from inexperience. I don't fancy doing time just so that I can impress you. I am fairly certain that any SAF man would agree with this sentiment - in fact, many of us here already know that the recent drowning case became public knowledge as the result of what was posted on this very forum.Originally posted by John Ching:Ah! Like most SpecOps, always claiming to have done something but can't elaborate on the grounds of security reasons. Hmm! If you've had trainning by senior IDF staff then you're likely to be an officer huh! I've not been trained by them though I have exchange knowledge with a number of their NCOs.
You can talk to Israeli NCOs all you want - if you believe that gives you better information than having actually worked with them, I really can't take you seriously.
Been there, done that. Hell, another guy and I had a company pinned down for two hours sitting on top of a knoll with a couple of M16s and a few boxes of ammo, and hell, they knew where we were after we took about ten of them down. Mind you, this was on an exercise with MILES gear, but the umpires did a great job of counting the number of kills. The ones who stayed standing in the first ten seconds were the ones who got hit first. By the way, we were firing from a seated position, resting the handgrip on one knee, and I'm trained in demolitions, not sniping.Originally posted by John Ching:Well, I've already explained in an earlier post about the raised platform issue so I'm not going to explain again. But I would again ask you to give it a shot from a platform looking down, across at a target from 50 to 100 m. Do it at different hours of the day.
Indeed, you need to control your fear to ensure survival. However, I put nit to you that the objective of controlling your fear is to retain the capacity to properly assess the situation - what the SAF calls a thinking soldier - instead of following drills by rote. That's how you survive - you use your head instead of firing blindly.Originally posted by John Ching:Hell, any sane man would be scare in a situation where the possibility of death is as good as 100% but what makes a soldier different is his ability to control his fear & use it as a fuel for survival. Give into fear & you'll sure to die. -
I read this post after making my last post, but I will leave my previous comments unedited as they constitute a direct answer to the relevant post.Originally posted by John Ching:I understand from my friend its a sensitive issue so I won't assume or probe on it, unless you care to clarify on the subject.
In any case, your friend has a good bead on things. Thank you for heeding his counsel. -
doh! someone knows..!!!Originally posted by lwflee:Its a drama series dude...
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Ah! I assumed you're talking about JW's regret that the movie did not portray more on the abilities of the GB huh? He definately didn't regret portraying as a GB.Originally posted by Gedanken:Indeed, you need to control your fear to ensure survival. However, I put nit to you that the objective of controlling your fear is to retain the capacity to properly assess the situation - what the SAF calls a thinking soldier - instead of following drills by rote. That's how you survive - you use your head instead of firing blindly.
Well, I definately did not say that I spoke to the IDF instructors. I said that I exchanged knowledge with them.
Ah! the MILEs system. Its really not much difference then the current project in the U.S to have soldiers play the Xbox games.
Seriously, as long as your bullet does not hit its target, you'll never know if you've actually got it right. So, its good that you've been there, done that but have you actually scored a kill?
Assessing a hostile situation is not wrong but doing so while some kid with a gun is trying to make a name for himself with your death, is wrong. When you assess a situation while under hostile fire would surely mean that you're hesitating & that would surely get you killed. Drills are taught over & over again so that when a situation occurs you react & not hesitate, irregardless of whether you kill the enemy on your first shot or not. You should then start thinking while you're shooting. An example is shooting in a kill house or CQB, a anti-hijack specialist will be trained over & over again that when a target appears around a corner suddenly with a hostage, the specialist is to immediately focus on the target & double-tap, hopefully not killing the hostage in front. So far that drill has worked well, no hostages have yet been killed. -
You assume wrong. He regretted the movie's jingoistic theme in light of the Vietnam War.Originally posted by John Ching:Ah! I assumed you're talking about JW's regret that the movie did not portray more on the abilities of the GB huh? He definately didn't regret portraying as a GB.
And that's tantamount to having either trained with them or been trained by them? Right.Originally posted by John Ching:Well, I definately did not say that I spoke to the IDF instructors. I said that I exchanged knowledge with them.
I'm very glad to say that I haven't had to kill anyone. Again, I think you're showing where you're coming from if that's an issue to you. What with training equipment and methods these days (and we're not talking about Xbox here), do you really have to kill someone to prove your combat skills? I think not. Geez, if nobody had combat skills before going to war, wouldn't there be a fatality rate of 100% on both sides in an actual war?Originally posted by John Ching:Ah! the MILEs system. Its really not much difference then the current project in the U.S to have soldiers play the Xbox games.
Seriously, as long as your bullet does not hit its target, you'll never know if you've actually got it right. So, its good that you've been there, done that but have you actually scored a kill?
Inappropriate example - the specialist knows where the target is. I don't know if you're reading me wrong here - do you think that assessing the situation is a long drawn out process? If you do then you've misunderstood me.Originally posted by John Ching:Assessing a hostile situation is not wrong but doing so while some kid with a gun is trying to make a name for himself with your death, is wrong. When you assess a situation while under hostile fire would surely mean that you're hesitating & that would surely get you killed. Drills are taught over & over again so that when a situation occurs you react & not hesitate, irregardless of whether you kill the enemy on your first shot or not. You should then start thinking while you're shooting. An example is shooting in a kill house or CQB, a anti-hijack specialist will be trained over & over again that when a target appears around a corner suddenly with a hostage, the specialist is to immediately focus on the target & double-tap, hopefully not killing the hostage in front. So far that drill has worked well, no hostages have yet been killed. -
there is only dat much spots in the killhouse dat a target can pop out from due to the design and structure mah....u go through it a few times u will know where will have potential pop-outs and where will not. for example, u can be sure dat there will be one at the staircase landing, dats almost 100% one....another popular spot is when u just upped the stair and have to turn left/right, ah boh is the corner of the room to the Left/Right or pop up from outside window.....its more of memory work and knowing the possible locations....Originally posted by Gedanken:Inappropriate example - the specialist knows where the target is. I don't know if you're reading me wrong here - do you think that assessing the situation is a long drawn out process? If you do then you've misunderstood me.
they teach dat when going up the stairs must keep to the 'outerlane' and vice versa when coming down so as to have max visibility and coverage but who really cares ?! i've long forgotten everything.... -
actually...it doesn't really require using live fire to kill someone to prove that you are good.MILES and the new TES(Tactical Engagement System) are for the purpose of simulation of war.So John Ching..you are saying that in the US,the US Army and all practice war games with LIVE ammunition and explosives?And that in order to score a kill,you have to actually shoot someone dead?
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Hmm! I honestly don't think where I'm coming from is an issue or not rather its the experience that I'm sharing that should be considered. Indeed, you've got to kill someone who's actually trying to kill you inorder to have the experience to know what its all about. The point is, you're fighting to survive, inorder to do that you've to know how to kill right.Originally posted by Gedanken:Inappropriate example - the specialist knows where the target is. I don't know if you're reading me wrong here - do you think that assessing the situation is a long drawn out process? If you do then you've misunderstood me.
Well, if you're going to compare the time it takes for you to assess a situation & the time of the 2nd bullet to impact on you. Then yes, I consider that as hesitation. Just looking in the direction of the shooter before reacting, is already hesitation. -
aiyah, just leave it to whoever is looking at the right side of the scope and whoever is looking at the wrong side. i won't be at either side of it so bochup !Originally posted by John Ching:Hmm! I honestly don't think where I'm coming from is an issue or not rather its the experience that I'm sharing that should be considered. Indeed, you've got to kill someone who's actually trying to kill you inorder to have the experience to know what its all about. The point is, you're fighting to survive, inorder to do that you've to know how to kill right.
Well, if you're going to compare the time it takes for you to assess a situation & the time of the 2nd bullet to impact on you. Then yes, I consider that as hesitation. Just looking in the direction of the shooter before reacting, is already hesitation. -
Well, John, I believe it is of relevance by virtue of these tactics being put forward as the result of hard-learned lessons. With regards to your point about having to kill first, guys like Dave Grossman (himself a retired Ranger colonel) have demonstrated that it makes little difference.Originally posted by John Ching:Hmm! I honestly don't think where I'm coming from is an issue or not rather its the experience that I'm sharing that should be considered. Indeed, you've got to kill someone who's actually trying to kill you inorder to have the experience to know what its all about. The point is, you're fighting to survive, inorder to do that you've to know how to kill right.
Well, if you're going to compare the time it takes for you to assess a situation & the time of the 2nd bullet to impact on you. Then yes, I consider that as hesitation. Just looking in the direction of the shooter before reacting, is already hesitation.
I hope you haven't misunderstood me. I started off by saying that you immediately hit the deck to minimise your profile (hey, maybe it doesn't make a difference if the shooter's elevated, but you try to make yourself less of a target anyway) before doing a quick AOS. From the description in your second paragraph, it sounds like you're describing someone standing up and going, "Huh? Where?", which is assuredly not the case I was making. -
I've never met LT. COL.(Ret.)DAVE GROSSMAN or read any of his books. No disrespect to the Col. but I believed that every man has te right to his own point of view on subjects.Originally posted by Gedanken:Well, John, I believe it is of relevance by virtue of these tactics being put forward as the result of hard-learned lessons. With regards to your point about having to kill first, guys like Dave Grossman (himself a retired Ranger colonel) have demonstrated that it makes little difference.
I hope you haven't misunderstood me. I started off by saying that you immediately hit the deck to minimise your profile (hey, maybe it doesn't make a difference if the shooter's elevated, but you try to make yourself less of a target anyway) before doing a quick AOS. From the description in your second paragraph, it sounds like you're describing someone standing up and going, "Huh? Where?", which is assuredly not the case I was making.
As for his experience, again, no disrespect to him being a batched Ranger. But I've known batched Rangers who've never even got to place their boots on the field of battle.
I've not misunderstood you about hitting the deck the momment a shot is fired at you. In simpler point, I'm saying that as you hit the deck, your finger should already be squeezing the trigger of your weapon, firing in the direction of the shooter. -
But essentially you agree that the first action/co-first action is to hit the deck? If that's the case, then firing or assessing at that point in time is too fime a difference for me to worry about.
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Well, your reaction should automatically be 1st squeeze your weapon's trigger, then hit the deck, move for cover & then assess the situation from cover.Originally posted by Gedanken:But essentially you agree that the first action/co-first action is to hit the deck? If that's the case, then firing or assessing at that point in time is too fime a difference for me to worry about.