Promotion in the reserves
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I want to add - by the time he was a minister or PM, he was longer serving in the SAF, I think.
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Although it is rather off topic, Adolf Hitler is only an LCP before he became commander in chief. Guess nothing is impossible under the sun......
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I doubt GCK did NS.
He's born in 1941, which renders him:
-- too old for the post-independence (full-time) enlistment. He would've been 26 years old when 1967 came around.
-- too young for the limited conscription (part-time, via public ballot) during the self-governing period. That policy lasted for just a year, 1954-55, before student riots ended it; GCK would've been just 13-14 years old then.
His resume http://www.cabinet.gov.sg/smgoh.htm doesn't suggest any such opportunity during the intervening years either: 1955-60 at RI; 1961-1964 at University of S'pore (BA studies); 1964-69 in the Administrative Service (1966-1967 at Williams College (MA studies); & thereafter joined NOL. -
Will Dr Goh Keng Swee (defence minister, 1965) be a better candidate? I believe we was a coporal with the Singapore Volunteer Corps, under the British.Originally posted by Moxie:I doubt GCK did NS.
He's born in 1941, which renders him:
-- too old for the post-independence (full-time) enlistment. He would've been 26 years old when 1967 came around.
-- too young for the limited conscription (part-time, via public ballot) during the self-governing period. That policy lasted for just a year, 1954-55, before student riots ended it; GCK would've been just 13-14 years old then.
His resume http://www.cabinet.gov.sg/smgoh.htm doesn't suggest any such opportunity during the intervening years either: 1955-60 at RI; 1961-1964 at University of S'pore (BA studies); 1964-69 in the Administrative Service (1966-1967 at Williams College (MA studies); & thereafter joined NOL. -
Der Fuhrer was a corporal. By the time he took over the Nationalist Socialist Party, he had Captain Ernst Rohm working for him.
The situation right now would be of similar context. The CDF is currently outranked by a BG and an R Adm. -
How can CDF be outranked by a BG or a R Adm. CDF has at least 2 stars on each of his shoulders, while BG 1 star, and a R Adm. 1 star also?Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:Der Fuhrer was a corporal. By the time he took over the Nationalist Socialist Party, he had Captain Ernst Rohm working for him.
The situation right now would be of similar context. The CDF is currently outranked by a BG and an R Adm. -
Unit bonding is something that grows when servicemen do charging up hill togther, eating meals together, running together, etc. This is not an incentive.Originally posted by Moxie:You mean beyond the SAF 100 & the make-up pay? ~lol~
Unit bonding, I guess. Reservist military culture is different from the "active time" version. During NSF, it's the regulars who holds the so-called KAH jobs - & they include SAF scholars, Formation-school transfers, condemned cases, plus the mundane signed-on's.
An incentive will be more of either a tangible or intangible rewards (monetary or non-monetary terms) that encourages each servicemen, individually, to excel or contribute further in the reserves. I believe money will not be the main incentive but rather a secondary one. For this case, promotion within the reserves as an incentive for servicemen (may it be within the enlisted ranks, officer ranks, or an enlisted promoting to an officer). -
My dear, can I ask you?. Do you know who your Minister of Defence is?Originally posted by nextdayagain:How can CDF be outranked by a BG or a R Adm. CDF has at least 2 stars on each of his shoulders, while BG 1 star, and a R Adm. 1 star also?
And do you know Minister George Yeo? -
No need to ask me, go to this website -> http://www.cabinet.gov.sg/Originally posted by dra5guards:My dear, can I ask you?. Do you know who your Minister of Defence is?
And do you know Minister George Yeo?
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Unit bonding is something that grows when servicemen do charging up hill togther, eating meals together, running together, etc. This is not an incentive.
No, unit bonding is a huge incentive, if the goal is to induce BN-level competency in executing mission goals. It's been enough of a stimulus to let reservist units achieve REDCON status & operate alongside their active cohorts.
An incentive will be more of either a tangible or intangible rewards (monetary or non-monetary terms) that encourages each servicemen, individually, to excel or contribute further in the reserves. I believe money will not be the main incentive but rather a secondary one. For this case, promotion within the reserves as an incentive for servicemen (may it be within the enlisted ranks, officer ranks, or an enlisted promoting to an officer).
You know this guilt complex which Vietnam vets go through having about a comrade dying or getting hurt instead of them? Not many reservists will admit this, but that feeling of "culpability" exists here too - albeit not as emotional. It usually occurs whenever someone misses an ICT callup he could've otherwise make adjustments to attend. (Not referring to the genuine deferment cases, though kudos to the SAF for tweaking the conscience by enforcing "penitent" make-up ICTs with an unfamiliar unit.) With the original outfit, the non-attendee knows his reservist colleagues usually have to cover for his absence, i.e. taking on double duties without added financial compensation. Hence the remorse, however fleeting.
Tangible rewards like promotions don't really work cuz (a) I think you're conjuring to apply civilian meritocracy values to the military & (b) reservist training is part-time for citizen soldiers & most don't want on the additional workload/responsibilities/obligations that come with it. To quip, "SAF = Serve & F***-off." To get promoted usually entails returning to attend extra courses or briefings (outside of the ICT sphere) &, from my anecdotes, the maximum 40-days liability really test the civilian-employers patience.
The reality is also that there's plenty of makeshift KAHs & junior commanders going around already, as NSman units try to function without the deferred personnel. But the understanding is it's only a temporary arrangment, cuz a parallel advancing of rank would infer a permanent replacement. My own unit lost an outstanding Recce Officer thus. I mean, his successor was more than adequate (& popular) but once he got his 3rd bar, the original guy couldn't return back & had to be posted out.
Re: "enlisted promoting to an officer." That'll only happen ad-hoc in crisis or wartime scenarios. In peacetime, enlistees would have to be redirected back to extensive OCS training, & thus applicable for those wanting to sign-on. Even more doubtful for reservists, given we've even got senior WO regulars commanding units nowdays without they being commissioned as officers. -
Wrong. The idea of applying civilian meritocracy values may not be best for the military. Rather, in this case, is more of rewarding reservist who are willing to take up more challenges within the reserves (by mean of promotion, may it be within the enlisted ranks or enlisted to an officer), I believe and have witness plenty of them, and are deligently and proactively doing their national service. Even if these NSmen get promoted up, I believe, they will be too happy to take the new challenge, even with the additional courses.Originally posted by Moxie:Tangible rewards like promotions don't really work cuz (a) I think you're conjuring to apply civilian meritocracy values to the military & (b) reservist training is part-time for citizen soldiers & most don't want on the additional workload/responsibilities/obligations that come with it. To quip, "SAF = Serve & F***-off." To get promoted usually entails returning to attend extra courses or briefings (outside of the ICT sphere) &, from my anecdotes, the maximum 40-days liability really test the civilian-employers patience.
If everyone would to take NS as a additional workload and something to frown upon, (something that I believe you are one), how can you answer to your country? -
Wrong. The idea of applying civilian meritocracy values may not be best for the military. Rather, in this case, is more of rewarding reservist who are willing to take up more challenges within the reserves (by mean of promotion, may it be within the enlisted ranks or enlisted to an officer), I believe and have witness plenty of them, and are deligently and proactively doing their national service. Even if these NSmen get promoted up, I believe, they will be too happy to take the new challenge, even with the additional courses.
1stly, the last sentence's a knee-jerk accusation - just cuz I disagree with ya? P.S. Get to know the regulars here 1st too, before questioning their loyalty.
If everyone would to take NS as a additional workload and something to frown upon, (something that I believe you are one), how can you answer to your country?
If you kena promoted & willingly accept the heavier commitments, that's fine. But give more credit to those normal reservists who answer each call-up without fail (despite periodic gripes & inconveniences) & contribute their lot (with no chances of advancement).
With the military itself, the reality is that the NCO & officer rank is completely leadership- & responsibility-based, & that there's only limited appointments available at the levels. The SAF regular side already has to institutionally phase out (still-capable) signed-on'ers earlier, in order to defect repeating the Thais' infamous "10 generals for every subordinate" experience.
Translated to the small-combat unit level, we don't want an overabundance of CPLs & 3SGs promoted "on merit" but without the accompanying job scope. How many ICs & sub-ICs can you create at the risk of over-micromanaging?
I went through the pre-Specialist system where all full A-Levels holders got advanced to CPL, creating unhappiness from the SAFINCO-trained who had to share the same hierarchial rank (& common duties like COS/Guard 2IC). I got the promotion then too &, while it's not strictly on merit, the formal-leadership gap between my kind & the true CPLs wasn't resolved. The SAF's attempt at bridging with the "CPL 1st Class" didn't take off.
How to reconcile for today, say, a new "merit" 3SG signaller vs. a "SISPEC" 3SG - can he become Signals SGT & why (since it wasn't a battlefield stepup)? Doesn't an ex-RSM being newly commissioned wholly demolish the structure & purpose of the whole WOSE corps? I'm not ruling out such advancements altogether, but they must occur only in extraordinary circumstances - rather than as a rote reward.
The rank-promotion idea is unpractical, but your more-general suggestion of "rewards" do exist (& are continually augmented) by the Government - except they're more correctly termed as "recognition". In particular, the implementation of RECORD recommendations have been much appreciated. Granted, many of us won't necessarily hanker for the SAFRA resort & country-club facilities, or benefit from the bigger allowances for KAHs.
Nonetheless, there's the preferential taxes, preferential share ownership top-up, enhanced IPPT/marksmanship monetary awards, finetuning of ICT stints, shortening of ICT cycle, 10-year passports for NSFs, decentralizing exit-permit applications, et al. - all of them formalized only within the last decade or so. That's plenty of material gratitude, a big change from my uncle's own "mah see sar kor" ("also $3") reservist days. -
This is what this topic is about; rewarding the normal reservists who have sacrifice their sweat and time in the service of their country with the prospect of promotion (may it be within the enlisted ranks, or an enlisted promoted to an officer). As for the other incentives, I believe the Government and RECORD have done a wonderful job, and I hope they will continue to do so.Originally posted by Moxie:1stly, the last sentence's a knee-jerk accusation - just cuz I disagree with ya? P.S. Get to know the regulars here 1st too, before questioning their loyalty.
If you kena promoted & willingly accept the heavier commitments, that's fine. But give more credit to those normal reservists who answer each call-up without fail (despite periodic gripes & inconveniences) & contribute their lot (with no chances of advancement).
With the military itself, the reality is that the NCO & officer rank is completely leadership- & responsibility-based, & that there's only limited appointments available at the levels. The SAF regular side already has to institutionally phase out (still-capable) signed-on'ers earlier, in order to defect repeating the Thais' infamous "10 generals for every subordinate" experience.
Translated to the small-combat unit level, we don't want an overabundance of CPLs & 3SGs promoted "on merit" but without the accompanying job scope. How many ICs & sub-ICs can you create at the risk of over-micromanaging?
I went through the pre-Specialist system where all full A-Levels holders got advanced to CPL, creating unhappiness from the SAFINCO-trained who had to share the same hierarchial rank (& common duties like COS/Guard 2IC). I got the promotion then too &, while it's not strictly on merit, the formal-leadership gap between my kind & the true CPLs wasn't resolved. The SAF's attempt at bridging with the "CPL 1st Class" didn't take off.
How to reconcile for today, say, a new "merit" 3SG signaller vs. a "SISPEC" 3SG - can he become Signals SGT & why (since it wasn't a battlefield stepup)? Doesn't an ex-RSM being newly commissioned wholly demolish the structure & purpose of the whole WOSE corps? I'm not ruling out such advancements altogether, but they must occur only in extraordinary circumstances - rather than as a rote reward.
The rank-promotion idea is unpractical, but your more-general suggestion of "rewards" do exist (& are continually augmented) by the Government - except they're more correctly termed as "recognition". In particular, the implementation of RECORD recommendations have been much appreciated. Granted, many of us won't necessarily hanker for the SAFRA resort & country-club facilities, or benefit from the bigger allowances for KAHs.
Nonetheless, there's the preferential taxes, preferential share ownership top-up, enhanced IPPT/marksmanship monetary awards, finetuning of ICT stints, shortening of ICT cycle, 10-year passports for NSFs, decentralizing exit-permit applications, et al. - all of them formalized only within the last decade or so. That's plenty of material gratitude, a big change from my uncle's own "mah see sar kor" ("also $3") reservist days.
I also understand that in a organizational there can be so many workers, fewer supervisor, even fewer managers, and unltimately 1 person at the top of the organization (i.e. too many cooks spoil the soup), and that promotion is also hugely dependent on the availability of higher appointments and opportunity to rise within the reserves.
However, this does not mean that rank promotion is impractical, but rather if the NSmen is willing, give him the opportunity to rise within the reserves. -
Still bleating the same stuff. Any new tangent at all?
if the NSmen is willing, give him the opportunity to rise
Why so - as they say, your grandfather's army, ah? ~lol~
But, yes, there's such exploitable lobang with the present rank system for reservists (except, again, it won't be as a rote reward).
I'm more of a traditionalist in preferring the old classification, which was basic but most sensible;
CO/RSM -------------> OC/CSM -------> PC/PS -----------------> SL-HIC/2IC
(MAJ/WO2-SSG) (CPT/SGT) (LTA-2LT/SGT-CPL) (CPL/LCP)
IMO The current rank structure is too politician-influenced & rendered too complicated. For all its "more affirmative" & "visibly upgradable" rationale, I think it can create more bureaucratic pettiness for the military hierarchy. Eg. Soldier A, for all his accomplishments, can't be promoted to above the incumbent Soldier's B's rank without accompanying new job responsibilities.
The post-'93 WOSE reforms that IMO concerned frontline reservists most were;
(a) the WO, upon affirmed as the 4th "executive" commander (joining MAJ, CPT & subalterns), is now too senior for RSM postings. Its rank is now recognized as equivalent to CPT level.
(b) the former NCO corps gained 5 separate ranks (MSG/SSG/1SG/2SG/3SG), & this is where reservists can get most advancements. A junior commander can definately make 2SG before he stands down; ditto 1SG for the more senior specialist KAHs. SSG-to-MSG isn't really a big deal; IMO it's more to offset against the new WO status, but what it does confirm is that the RSM now holds a Spec rank (albeit senior one).
[Specialist-to-WO now requires attending a formal tri-service Joint-WO course, kinda the WOSE version of OCS, before getting promoted. Quite rare for reservists.]
(c) enlisted men now gains the CPL & PFC along with the LCP. No rank-pulling allowed here; the hierarchy differentiation's more with between, say, HIC (head IC) & 2IC instead.
Overall, if you think about it, the combat-unit appointments (see above) hadn't fundamentally changed, nor has the general partitioning of the rank & file:
Officer corps -------> NCO/Specialist Corps ------> Enlisted men
Regardless of specific rank, it still requires extraordinary circumstances for non-regulars to advance out of each scission.
But there's no obstacle stopping Specs from being promoted within its "internal" grades, based on ICT performances & pragmatic unit needs. Ambitious reservists can maneuver themselves into filling in for missing incumbents &, if they continue to defer the next call-up too, then fight to be a permanent replacement.
I have no problems either if the SAF elects to withhold the LTA promotions before ORD, & wait till after the 2nd ICT. The junior officers tend to mature more as NSmen than they did as NSFs anyway.
Among enlisted men, CPLs have no business advancing to a leadership rank like 3SG as a peacetime "reward." &, for now, LCPs can't make CPL without the post-O Levels cert either. But, that's said there's nothing from stopping enlisted men from switching postings, vis-&-vis against unit needs. Combat-fit signallers & combat medics could all along be deployed to any Formation. Even for same-Formation troops, working with a 155mm howitzer is totally different from the Primus. Active-time PTIs (Specs, mind you) & MPs revert back to INF for reservist.
What all these examples required is a short induction course, or at worst on-the-job training. That's how I became a mono-intake instructor, & how one Malay reservist colleague of mine successfully switched from driver to RP (after a few ICTs of persuading the MTO to release his services). But "other ranks" climbing to 3SG or CPL rank - forget it.
What's your rank & vocation? -
Double post.
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Apart from medical doctors who can become CPTs ( I have a couple of friends like this) even though they only went thru' SISPEC (or SAFINCOS in the old days).... I can think of one example I heard... lawyer who was a section cmdr in NS and became a local captain and served in the court martial centre.Originally posted by Gordonator:don't think it's possible for a NCO to be promoted to a officer during reservist.
but it's possible for a LTA(NS) to be promoted to CPT(NS).
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Probably the special cases are limited to the Medical Corps and the SAF Legal Service.Hmm, imagine getting a Senior Counsel as a defending officer...or worse, prosecuting in a Court Martial.
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I don't think it's possible for a NCO to be promoted to a officer during reservist.
I do vaguely recall such a commissioning, but it was under extraordinary circumstances (the Hotel New World Collapse). Supposed to be an "instant" field promotion too, when the rescue work was still going on. The news made the papers. I was doing BMT in Tekong then, & fleetingly read about it in the COY admin office after submitting my IC report late at night.
Can't pinpoint whether the guy was a reservist, though. Correctly or not, I've associated him all these years as a Combat Engineer, for some reason. -
Wow ... many views ... back from holiday ...
So I believe that promotion within the reserves will also hugely depend on your luck and your profession (esp. if you are working for the gov.) e.g. Doctor, lawyers, senior civil servants, etc.
Nevertheless, for those who desire to take up more responsibilities and a promotion, best wishes. I believe there are many out there ... -
is it possible for a 2SG(NS) to be promoted to a SSG in reservist?
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A jump of two ranks? Highly unlikely but if you're talking about eventually reaching SSG I don't see why not. There are those who rose to become Warrant Officers as Reservists.Originally posted by Gordonator:is it possible for a 2SG(NS) to be promoted to a SSG in reservist? -
double post
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Reservist? - I know a section commander, who went on to be a platoon sergent, and is currently a CSM. Most likely to repeat the 13 year cycle again (or until the legal age catches up). So its very possible.Originally posted by Gordonator:is it possible for a 2SG(NS) to be promoted to a SSG in reservist? -
so how abot normal combatant CPL(NS), what are their chances of promotion?
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Guess it depends on your vocation.
If you are with a reservist BN, it is unlikely that you will ever get a promotion cos most people will remain in the same BN before their time runs out. I could only imagine a possibility of a promotion if there is a vacancy. For example, your section commander gets posted out or down graded or a section commander gets promoted to platoon commander.
Think in most instances, sgt or officers gets a chance for promotion. may it be a local or permanent promotion.
Also there need to be a vacancy before they can move you up or they choose to post you to another unit for some reason.