Irony of Arms Manufacturers......I wonder why...
-
Hi people,just wondering,if you have read why the shorterned or carbine versions of full-length Assault Rifles like M16,G36,M16A2,AK47 etc are developed.The manufacturer or designers of these assault rifles/sub-machine guns are always quote that the purpose of haveing a carbine or SMG is to allow support troops like drivers,logistic personnel etc. to have a weapon capable of defending themselves and share the common rounds used by the general combat troopers.Like the CAR-15 and M4,when it first came on,they published a statement that these weapons are for troopers who require a full-calibre weapon but are unable to use the standard issue to the regular combat troops as they work in cram spaces and lack the luxury of space to house such a weapon,right?
But consider this,have you ever seen any driver or logistic personnel using/being equipped with a carbine?I have never seen lorz.Usually is either those recce troopers,infantry,guards,commandos,Armoured crews and SF personnel (NDU/SOF) right?So isn't it strange...the only people I see who sometimes use such weapons are those in SIW or Armourers...And those drivers,logistic personnel are often armed with the full-scale service weapon.Although they sometimes go out unarmed...so what do you think of these irony?It exists in all militaries in the world!!! -
I agreed fully what you said. I, being a SAF driver serving the pass 10 yrs in a secret signal unit, mounting up and down all SAF vehicles with the stupiG M16.
If given a choice, I would go for a M4 plus a pistol. -
Prefably, the SAF should arm the drivers and technicians (support) with small-cal firearms, possibly a mix of pistols (usp? p226?) and carbys. Throw in an MG for each plt, that's all you need to do defence
-
logistics issue...
-
Logistics issue in terms of...? Weapons? Doubt so.
-
I mean,don't you guys find it rather odd...weapons which are supposed for so-called rear-echeleon troopers are being used by those up front in the combat zone?And besides that,the way SAF arm our troops is alittle strange.Even medics have to carry the full-scale M16 or SAR21.Those US Forces,almost all their medics are equipped with M4s as its shorter and lighter.
honestly,besides me,anyone ever thought of this ironic fact?Please share your views etc...
-
Besides medics, heavy weapons crews - like the CG 84mm crews, are expected to carry a full lenght M16 as well.
-
I think what you've here is the same problem face by U.S SWAT dept.Originally posted by SpecOps87:I mean,don't you guys find it rather odd...weapons which are supposed for so-called rear-echeleon troopers are being used by those up front in the combat zone?And besides that,the way SAF arm our troops is alittle strange.Even medics have to carry the full-scale M16 or SAR21.Those US Forces,almost all their medics are equipped with M4s as its shorter and lighter.
honestly,besides me,anyone ever thought of this ironic fact?Please share your views etc... 
As you know SWAT implies that a SWAT officer is suppose to have Special weapons to deal with special situations. But what you may not know is that most weapons used by the SWAT officers are really their own personal weapon bought with their own hard earn money.
If you're wonderring why this is so, the reason is because of budget. Different SWAT dept from different county or district, have different budget alocated. On top of that, the budget is not just for the SWAT but for the whole police dept. Meaning the budget has to be shared by te other depts within the precinct such as, Robbery & Homicide, Anti-drug, Vice, etc.
As for the U.S military, they have a larger defence budget to spend on.
-
Kinks in weps allocation and planning.And it is worth noting that there are more M16s and SAR21s than M4A1s, so it's also a matter of economical and logistical ease of issue.My two cents worth.Originally posted by SpecOps87:I mean,don't you guys find it rather odd...weapons which are supposed for so-called rear-echeleon troopers are being used by those up front in the combat zone?And besides that,the way SAF arm our troops is alittle strange.Even medics have to carry the full-scale M16 or SAR21.Those US Forces,almost all their medics are equipped with M4s as its shorter and lighter.
honestly,besides me,anyone ever thought of this ironic fact?Please share your views etc... -
Hopefully, we'll see service support pers using more suitable sidearms in combat.
It really is funny to bring a M16 to the field to work, say, evacuate the casualty, treat casualty, repair the underside of tanks etc? -
But consider this,have you ever seen any driver or logistic personnel using/being equipped with a carbine?I have never seen lorz.Usually is either those recce troopers,infantry,guards,commandos,Armoured crews and SF personnel (NDU/SOF) right?
My active Arty unit - 120mm SP mortars mounted inside the M113 - used the Carbines throughout our NSF period. I can vouch that the subsequent mono-intake BMT used the same weapons as well (ORD'd myself before they turned operational). Dunno how/why we were assigned with them, though.
In both stints, everyone in the BN - including Land-Rover drivers - were equipped with Carbines. -
But consider this,have you ever seen any driver or logistic personnel using/being equipped with a carbine?I have never seen lorz.Usually is either those recce troopers,infantry,guards,commandos,Armoured crews and SF personnel (NDU/SOF) right?So isn't it strange...the only people I see who sometimes use such weapons are those in SIW or Armourers...And those drivers,logistic personnel are often armed with the full-scale service weapon.Although they sometimes go out unarmed...so what do you think of these irony?It exists in all militaries in the world!!!
Armourers? the ones who work in Singapore Technologies who repair our weapons? or Tank Crew? -
Because.
The nice people in Logistics and Finance.
It's nothing new.
For years Snipers couldn't get special ammo.
"Oh no we can't handle a new ammo just for you. Think of the cost!!" -
Its not ammo here....Its the physical weapon.
And also,I'm curious if any units still using the old SAR-80 or SAR-88? -
:/
If the people in G4 are not going to issue SNIPERS a ammunition type that they need to make their "One shot, one kill" motto a reality....
We're talking SNIPERS here. Elite people.
Why will they issue totally new weapons and ammunitions to people who more or less will never see combat?
And yes, i personally saw those two rifles being used at a certain base somewhere. -
i am assuming match grade ammo??Originally posted by Johnston::/
If the people in G4 are not going to issue SNIPERS a ammunition type that they need to make their "One shot, one kill" motto a reality....
We're talking SNIPERS here. Elite people.
Why will they issue totally new weapons and ammunitions to people who more or less will never see combat?
And yes, i personally saw those two rifles being used at a certain base somewhere. -
Thought they did the turn-over already. U'll find them in ALB rotting away thoOriginally posted by SpecOps87:Its not ammo here....Its the physical weapon.
And also,I'm curious if any units still using the old SAR-80 or SAR-88? -
the cost lar.....u think so easy to arm people with diff weapons....standardization lor...less confusing for armourers and storemen..
manufacturers make different versions to address different market needs..simple marketing....the way armed forces armed specific people...to make things less complicated for logistics is to arm everyone the same..... -
The units that the starter said he has seen carrying such weapons are the people who have priority for issue of small arms.Originally posted by SpecOps87:But consider this,have you ever seen any driver or logistic personnel using/being equipped with a carbine?
I have never seen lorz.
Usually is either those recce troopers,infantry,guards,commandos,Armoured crews and SF personnel (NDU/SOF) right?So isn't it strange...the only people I see who sometimes use such weapons are those in SIW or Armourers...And those drivers,logistic personnel are often armed with the full-scale service weapon.Although they sometimes go out unarmed...so what do you think of these irony?It exists in all militaries in the world!!!
Of course we'd better issue carbines to our SOF people, after all, we wouldn't want them to have problems clearing a room, would they?
But a driver?
Hey driver, your job is to drive. Not to shoot.
So if we issue you a bayonet you should be happy.
Consider, is a medic more important than a driver in the great chain of things? Yes he is. But he gets issued a full-size weapon.
The long and short of the whole supply thing is that...
One weapon = one system to support it.
Parts, ammunition, documentation, training, all that.
All this costs MONEY.
Two weapons = twice the cost.
And if it uses a different ammo, ammo resupply must be counted in also.
So consider this: a Platoon armed with 7.62mm MGs, 5.56mm rifles, 9mm/.45 pistols, 40mm GLs, assorted heavy support systems such as 84mm RR, 67mm LAW...
Requires SEVEN types of ammunition resupply.
These seven types of ammunition need to go through these processes.
Requistioning and purchasing.
Collating and packaging.
Indenting and sending.
Lastly, parceling them out to the troops as needed.
The strain is already hard enough on the poor storemen and armourers, do you think they want more? Not to mention you need to factor in special ammo types.
5.56 AP/Tracer, 40mm HE/Smk, 84mm RR rounds.
Isn't it ironic that at the end the Army asks for money from civilians? -
If you remain in doubt that two weapons require two systems....
Here's a breakdown.
M16S1
M4 carbine.
Both are similar in form and usage, so at least the training problem is less.
Parts?
They use different upper/lower recievers.
So if you want to maintain both weapons, you have to maintain different part stocks.
And let's not get into the difficulties in introducing a completely new weapon.
What if you, being trained your whole life for a certain weapon, certain ammo, and certain way of using it, have to retrain and learn to maintain a new weapon? -
what??no pistol 1 meh....what ur side arm?Ka-Bar?hahaOriginally posted by Manager433:I agreed fully what you said. I, being a SAF driver serving the pass 10 yrs in a secret signal unit, mounting up and down all SAF vehicles with the stupiG M16.
If given a choice, I would go for a M4 plus a pistol. -
Well,its true to factor in costs.But you don't get the point here do you?Its the ironic fact that frontline troops are equipped with weapons which are orginally supposed for use by the support/service side.
And please do not degrade the driver.Did you ever realise this?The role of each and every person in the SAF has an important part to play.And I don't see why drivers should not be equipped with a firearm.A certain forumnite wrote that drivers should be happy if they are even given a bayonet as their job is to drive and not shoot.But have you realised this important fact,when situations get desperate,every single man in uniform who can shoot and is combat-fit counts?Event plump soldiers or those with medical problems who are confined to desk-jobs count?So please,everyone is just trying to do their part.to serve the nation.So please don't play down their contributions.
And if you guys realise this,it must be noted that almost all arms manufacturers quoted that their SMG or Carbines are for issue to support/service personnel. -
Yeah.Don't look down on anyone just because of their vocation.If one gear is missing, the whole mechanism will not work.
-
its marketing lar...Originally posted by SpecOps87:Well,its true to factor in costs.But you don't get the point here do you?Its the ironic fact that frontline troops are equipped with weapons which are orginally supposed for use by the support/service side.
And please do not degrade the driver.Did you ever realise this?The role of each and every person in the SAF has an important part to play.And I don't see why drivers should not be equipped with a firearm.A certain forumnite wrote that drivers should be happy if they are even given a bayonet as their job is to drive and not shoot.But have you realised this important fact,when situations get desperate,every single man in uniform who can shoot and is combat-fit counts?Event plump soldiers or those with medical problems who are confined to desk-jobs count?So please,everyone is just trying to do their part.to serve the nation.So please don't play down their contributions.
And if you guys realise this,it must be noted that almost all arms manufacturers quoted that their SMG or Carbines are for issue to support/service personnel.
just to emphasize compactability...even ADAs use carbines bcos they arent suppose to engage ground forces at long range...its also practicality...
the way i see the SAF is that it doesnt want to complicate things and would arm everyone accordingly.... -
totally agree... more parts missing mean i have to indent more spare parts..Originally posted by LazerLordz:Yeah.Don't look down on anyone just because of their vocation.If one gear is missing, the whole mechanism will not work.