Irony of Arms Manufacturers......I wonder why...
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ADA use carbine meh?I tot ADA uses the AR-15.As when they they start to engage enemy,it means that the situation is FUBAR (F**ked Up Beyond All Repair)liaoz..
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thats a carbine version of the m-16...that was wat i meant...if i wanted to say M-4..i'll say M-4....i still consider the AR-15 a carbine...Originally posted by SpecOps87:ADA use carbine meh?I tot ADA uses the AR-15.As when they they start to engage enemy,it means that the situation is FUBAR (F**ked Up Beyond All Repair)liaoz.. -
Surely you mean the CAR-15 carbine.I'm using AR-15s and they sure as hell measure the same length as a M-16S1/A1/A2/A3 whatnot.Originally posted by sidestep1984:thats a carbine version of the m-16...that was wat i meant...if i wanted to say M-4..i'll say M-4....i still consider the AR-15 a carbine... -
AR15 are not carbines. The AR15 is an earlier version of the M16.Originally posted by sidestep1984:thats a carbine version of the m-16...that was wat i meant...if i wanted to say M-4..i'll say M-4....i still consider the AR-15 a carbine...
M4s are the carbine version of the M16A2. Singapore uses the carbine version of the M16S1. -
yes...was referring to that...lol..Originally posted by LazerLordz:Surely you mean the CAR-15 carbine.I'm using AR-15s and they sure as hell measure the same length as a M-16S1/A1/A2/A3 whatnot. -
Got difference between AR-15 and CAR-15 lehz brother...
AR-15 is the predecessor of the M16.AR-15s have the markings Armalite on it,while the M16s are usually marked with Colt Government Model.And also the CAR-15 is different as it has the ability to extend its buttstock and the handguard is rounded,not triangular compared to that of the AR-15 or M16.
And do note the AR-15 lacks the forward assist and has a 3-prong flash suppressor not the rounded one we usually use on M16s now. -
Mr Special Forces Operator Number 87.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Well,its true to factor in costs.But you don't get the point here do you?Its the ironic fact that frontline troops are equipped with weapons which are orginally supposed for use by the support/service side.
And if you guys realise this,it must be noted that almost all arms manufacturers quoted that their SMG or Carbines are for issue to support/service personnel.
Everybody knows that the weapons you quoted are best for service/support personnel.
Everybody wants a flashy weapon and in the best caliber possible.
But nobody much really wants to pay for them.
How about if you were allowed to use any weapon you wanted, but with one tiny catch.
You pay all the costs.
And when *ALL*, it means all.
To cut a paragraph or so of needless tech-talk, think of the costs involved whenever you purchase any complicated product such as a car.
And by the way, whatever is shown to NCC personnel is not the equipment that line units use or can expect to use.
Whatever shiny, lovely weapons you see at a open house rarely gets used by the troops.
To illustrate, Artillery were not issued any FN P90s or M4 carbines. Not the Pathfinder Bn, nor the 155mm towed howitzers Bns.
The sole exception was the unit that ultilises Primuses.
Now sit there and wonder why. -
My AR-15 uses the M16S1 flash suppressor.They are interchangeable.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Got difference between AR-15 and CAR-15 lehz brother...
AR-15 is the predecessor of the M16.AR-15s have the markings Armalite on it,while the M16s are usually marked with Colt Government Model.And also the CAR-15 is different as it has the ability to extend its buttstock and the handguard is rounded,not triangular compared to that of the AR-15 or M16.
And do note the AR-15 lacks the forward assist and has a 3-prong flash suppressor not the rounded one we usually use on M16s now. -
Wait.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Well,its true to factor in costs.But you don't get the point here do you?Its the ironic fact that frontline troops are equipped with weapons which are orginally supposed for use by the support/service side.
.
You said.
"But consider this,have you ever seen any driver or logistic personnel using/being equipped with a carbine?I have never seen lorz.Usually is either those recce troopers,infantry,guards,commandos,Armoured crews and SF personnel (NDU/SOF) right"
I shall tell you now why the people you have seen using such weapons use such weapons.
Recce troopers: RECCE! That is your job! Your job is not to fight!
Infantry: You may have to be involved in FIBUA!
Guards: You may have to jump down from a plane!
Commandoes: You may have to be involved in FIBUA!
Armour: There's not much space in there, and if you have to become a rifleman, the situation is crap.
SF personnel: You may have to be involved in FIBUA!
In all of the above, there is one common factor WHY they get issued carbines.
Shorter barrel.
(Also equates to shorter effective range)
Lighter weight.
Commonality of ammunition. -
guess wat u meant was helicopter for guards huh?...this is the easiest no BS kinda answer which is really practical....Originally posted by Johnston:Wait.
You said.
"But consider this,have you ever seen any driver or logistic personnel using/being equipped with a carbine?I have never seen lorz.Usually is either those recce troopers,infantry,guards,commandos,Armoured crews and SF personnel (NDU/SOF) right"
I shall tell you now why the people you have seen using such weapons use such weapons.
Recce troopers: RECCE! That is your job! Your job is not to fight!
Infantry: You may have to be involved in FIBUA!
Guards: You may have to jump down from a plane!
Commandoes: You may have to be involved in FIBUA!
Armour: There's not much space in there, and if you have to become a rifleman, the situation is crap.
SF personnel: You may have to be involved in FIBUA!
In all of the above, there is one common factor WHY they get issued carbines.
Shorter barrel.
(Also equates to shorter effective range)
Lighter weight.
Commonality of ammunition. -
Hey, I would also prefer to carry a shorter n lighter weapon over my M-16. But I was thinking more along the line of the XM-8....
Anyways. It is true that soldiers operating in confined spaces have to use shorter weapons. Can bring the weapon to bear faster. Preferably also got lighter recoil, lagi best. Maneuver arms, after all, need maneuverabilty. =D
Seriously, I think that the good ol M-16 is sufficient for Drivers n Logisticians. As well as rear-echelon troops.
Firstly, there is nothing bad about it. (jams a bit here n there, but so does CAR-15)
Its hard hitting.
Every combat fit soldier knows how to use one, regardless of vocation. Other weapons may require additional training. Yes, though CAR-15 and M-16 is rather similar, not everybody has an IQ above 100. So have to make plans idiot proof lar. =D
We have plenty of it.
Don't worry about us poor storemen. Just don't charge us so often or blame us when stuff don't come on time. We are just the men. BLAME THE CQs!!! MUAHAHHAHA. -
XM-8 is good(u should see it go full auto...recoilless man...)...but i read somewhere that it got turned down by the US Army...Originally posted by Shotgun:Hey, I would also prefer to carry a shorter n lighter weapon over my M-16. But I was thinking more along the line of the XM-8....
Anyways. It is true that soldiers operating in confined spaces have to use shorter weapons. Can bring the weapon to bear faster. Preferably also got lighter recoil, lagi best. Maneuver arms, after all, need maneuverabilty. =D
Seriously, I think that the good ol M-16 is sufficient for Drivers n Logisticians. As well as rear-echelon troops.
Firstly, there is nothing bad about it. (jams a bit here n there, but so does CAR-15)
Its hard hitting.
Every combat fit soldier knows how to use one, regardless of vocation. Other weapons may require additional training. Yes, though CAR-15 and M-16 is rather similar, not everybody has an IQ above 100. So have to make plans idiot proof lar. =D
We have plenty of it.
Don't worry about us poor storemen. Just don't charge us so often or blame us when stuff don't come on time. We are just the men. BLAME THE CQs!!! MUAHAHHAHA. -
One of the reason my warrant officer told me was that they were afraid that the M4 could be smuggled out of the camp fully ready and loaded for use compared to a full size M16 or SAR21 which you need to break into two to make it easier to put it in a normal civilian backpack and that is why handguns are not issued in most camp.
HTH. -
? You mean easier to smuggle don't you?Originally posted by Temujin:One of the reason my warrant officer told me was that they were afraid that the M4 could be smuggled out of the camp fully ready and loaded for use compared to a full size M16 or SAR21 which you need to break into two to make it easier to put it in a normal civilian backpack and that is why handguns are not issued in most camp.
HTH.
Well, be that as it may, incidents of M16s being smuggled out have taken place. With or without ammunition.
Those with SPF connections may even remember cases where stolen arms were used in robberies. I remember one such case being told of on crimewatch.
Well why not think of it this way?
Any weapon, as long as it can be broken down (exception of vehicles), can be smuggled out piecemeal.
Let us say for example you wish to smuggle a M16 + M203 out.
First you strip the weapon.
Then go out of camp with lower reciever.
Come back into camp.
Go out with upper reciever.
Come back.
Take the M203.
Come back.
Take ammo.
Dammned but i never saw RPs searching anyone, except for a few brief months after the Iraq war broke out. -
.............. The upper reciever IS DAMN long lor. Only if I bring a golf bag then maybe I might try a stunt like that?
Besides, how da heck to smuggle arms out of camp? Firstly, the soldier will have to go AWOL, then take his rifle with him.
I think the only place that CAN happen is BMTC. Any recruit can just bua long long, take his rifle, field pack SBO, walk to TFT @ night. Blur recruits on guard duty will think he's another camp guard. The smuggler can just say... "Eh. sorry... i in a hurry to get to the other side." Then after disembark ferry, blur walk past the blur recruits again, then pretend to apologise to the sect com there. Then walk out towards the gate....
Of course, thats one of our "over active" imaginations in BMT. -
Firstly, such case have happened before.Originally posted by Shotgun:.............. The upper reciever IS DAMN long lor. Only if I bring a golf bag then maybe I might try a stunt like that?
Besides, how da heck to smuggle arms out of camp? Firstly, the soldier will have to go AWOL, then take his rifle with him.
Of course, thats one of our "over active" imaginations in BMT.
It's nothing new.
Cases of weapons lost *WITH AMMO!* have happened, and have even been put in newsletters for servicepeople to read.
Think of this.
What if the armskoteman decided to steal a weapon?
Declare the weapon "returned to armorer" for repair.
And while the DO just thinks that it's really back there, when in fact it is dissassembled and outside camp?
Case happened with a LCP who wrote back to camp declaring he was in possession of a rifle and ammo. He wrote "had some live firing to take care of".
Cue massive manhunt.
Was caught later with rifle stripped and all the ammo he stated he had in a sports bag.
Any one with determination can do anything. GP cars, minibuses, 3 tonners have gone missing. What then weapons?
Anyone who says "Bullcrap! SAF has never lost a weapon before" should put a query into SAFPU. -
U sound pretty senior in rank/age in SAF huh....Originally posted by Johnston:Firstly, such case have happened before.
It's nothing new.
Cases of weapons lost *WITH AMMO!* have happened, and have even been put in newsletters for servicepeople to read.
Think of this.
What if the armskoteman decided to steal a weapon?
Declare the weapon "returned to armorer" for repair.
And while the DO just thinks that it's really back there, when in fact it is dissassembled and outside camp?
Case happened with a LCP who wrote back to camp declaring he was in possession of a rifle and ammo. He wrote "had some live firing to take care of".
Cue massive manhunt.
Was caught later with rifle stripped and all the ammo he stated he had in a sports bag.
Any one with determination can do anything. GP cars, minibuses, 3 tonners have gone missing. What then weapons?
Anyone who says "Bullcrap! SAF has never lost a weapon before" should put a query into SAFPU.
'Cos this is not the first time I heard that...and now that you say it.... -
And by the way, whatever is shown to NCC personnel is not the equipment that line units use or can expect to use.
I concur, the SAF exhibition equipment is like a girl with nice makeup and looks very pretty.
Whatever shiny, lovely weapons you see at a open house rarely gets used by the troops.
When you are in, the issued equipment is like a girl without makeup and she is not a natural beauty but ugly as hell.
Hopes this metaphor helps.
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You guys are straying alittle off topic...
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Johnston is just describing y carbines are limited...read and understand his views...Originally posted by SpecOps87:You guys are straying alittle off topic... -
I do understand the limitations of carbines,and thats their short range and their accuracy tends to drop at longer ranges compared to full-sized rifles..But that's not the whole picture here.You see the fact is that carbines i meantioned,are not entirely a seperate weapons system.The M16,M4 and Car-15 all accept the same magazines,the way it is cocked is the same,the way rate of fire is selected is the same,the way IAs are cleared is the same.The essential difference is the weapon length,the ability for the butt-stock to be extended or retracted and the handguard is rounded.
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have u ever thought of logistical and financial problems??Originally posted by SpecOps87:I do understand the limitations of carbines,and thats their short range and their accuracy tends to drop at longer ranges compared to full-sized rifles..But that's not the whole picture here.You see the fact is that carbines i meantioned,are not entirely a seperate weapons system.The M16,M4 and Car-15 all accept the same magazines,the way it is cocked is the same,the way rate of fire is selected is the same,the way IAs are cleared is the same.The essential difference is the weapon length,the ability for the butt-stock to be extended or retracted and the handguard is rounded. -
Erm seriously, the CAR-15 has shorter range. I'm not joking, the accuracy also not as good. Although 100m, not much difference lar.
But try shooting a bit further than that...
Reason : If I am not wrong is in "rifling" effect of the round. Different length, will result in diff Muzzle velocity and stuff. -
:/Originally posted by SpecOps87:I do understand the limitations of carbines,and thats their short range and their accuracy tends to drop at longer ranges compared to full-sized rifles..But that's not the whole picture here.You see the fact is that carbines i meantioned,are not entirely a seperate weapons system.The M16,M4 and Car-15 all accept the same magazines,the way it is cocked is the same,the way rate of fire is selected is the same,the way IAs are cleared is the same.The essential difference is the weapon length,the ability for the butt-stock to be extended or retracted and the handguard is rounded.
You fail to recognise my point that both, even though they have similar operating methods, and such, both require DIFFERENT PARTS.
The same essential differences such as
Weapon length.
Telescopic butt-stock
rounded handguard.
All translate into more parts for the armourers, storemen and other people to keep track of. And also purchase. -
Originally posted by Shotgun:Erm seriously, the CAR-15 has shorter range. I'm not joking, the accuracy also not as good. Although 100m, not much difference lar.
But try shooting a bit further than that...
Reason : If I am not wrong is in "rifling" effect of the round. Different length, will result in diff Muzzle velocity and stuff.
Simple and easy ballistic lesson.
More barrel = more rifling.
More rifling = longer time the bullet spins.
longer time the bullet spins = well, er duh?
Translates into more velocity, and better terminal ballistics.