Rationale of GIGN armed with Revolvers
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The French GIGN is the premier police counter-terrorist unit in France.They are rather similarly with the SG Star armed with the MP5 which has been proven to be an effective CQB weapon.Now,the question I have is that,we do realise that most of the units which are engaged in CQB use semi-automatic pistols as they have a larger ammunition capacity,and are easier to reload.Well,it is an interesting fact to know that GIGN troopers are mostly armed with a revolver as a sidearm.The rationale behind GIGN troopers being armed as posted by their webby,was that it encourages the troopers to aim and fire accurate shots and that the fact revolvers never jam compared to semi-autos.
But does it occur to them that the rate of fire from a revolver is extremely low and it isn't really suitable for CQB where action takes place fast and furious.Besides the reloading of a revolver is a time-consuming process.Anyone who has fired revolvers would know this.And I for one would definitely never go into CQB with a revolver due to the above reasons.
Anyone has views to share or comments? -
Even Navy SEALS use revolvers in some situations... good to use out of water as there are lesser moving parts...Originally posted by SpecOps87:The French GIGN is the premier police counter-terrorist unit in France.They are rather similarly with the SG Star armed with the MP5 which has been proven to be an effective CQB weapon.Now,the question I have is that,we do realise that most of the units which are engaged in CQB use semi-automatic pistols as they have a larger ammunition capacity,and are easier to reload.Well,it is an interesting fact to know that GIGN troopers are mostly armed with a revolver as a sidearm.The rationale behind GIGN troopers being armed as posted by their webby,was that it encourages the troopers to aim and fire accurate shots and that the fact revolvers never jam compared to semi-autos.
But does it occur to them that the rate of fire from a revolver is extremely low and it isn't really suitable for CQB where action takes place fast and furious.Besides the reloading of a revolver is a time-consuming process.Anyone who has fired revolvers would know this.And I for one would definitely never go into CQB with a revolver due to the above reasons.
Anyone has views to share or comments?
yes the rate of fire may be low....but thats y the GIGN are called elites....
also...one of the advantages of a revolver is that it can use rounds of a shape, length or softness that would not feed through an automatic. -
GIGN uses the Manurhin MR73 revolver right?
Anyway, they do have a handgun pouch (for P228?) on their body gear, in addition to the revolver holster on their thighs. -
yeah.....Originally posted by Icemoon:GIGN uses the Manurhin MR73 revolver right?
Anyway, they do have a handgun pouch (for P228?) on their body gear, in addition to the revolver holster on their thighs.
the MR73 is standard issue....abundant in France... -
Consider this.Originally posted by SpecOps87:But does it occur to them that the rate of fire from a revolver is extremely low and it isn't really suitable for CQB where action takes place fast and furious.Besides the reloading of a revolver is a time-consuming process.Anyone who has fired revolvers would know this.And I for one would definitely never go into CQB with a revolver due to the above reasons.
Anyone has views to share or comments?
Crazed homey with a Beretta M92 shooting all over the place.
Police office with a Colt Python taking careful aim and taking him down with one shot.
Who has more firepower?
Does your statement:
"never go into CQB with a revolver"
mean that if a situation arises where you may have to enter a home in response to a call of "armed intruder"....
You'd stay outside and tell your dispatcher "Ah, im not gonna go in there, cause my revolver reloads slow and it's no good for CQB. Im gonna wait for the SWAT team."
6 well aimed shots from a revolver is better than 30 shots from a rifle sprayed all over the place.
Consider this situation.
Your ambushed in a alley. You have a revolver on you. Will you draw and shoot? Or will you tell the criminals "ah, excuse me, im not gonna shoot you because my dinky little revolver reloads slow and it's no good for CQB. Can you wait while i go home and get my pistol?"
Never say never.
The best gun is the one you have on you when you need to use one. -
LOL
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HHAAHAHHAHAOriginally posted by palmerised:LOL -
revolvers do not jam but sometimes it clicks but the round doesn't discharge....happen b4 while i was still in PA with S&W...my time still using S&W, i POP then Taurus come in.
German's GSG9 more elite i guess....they wear Adiddas boots and then US and UK started to follow their style, end up i think US and UK didn't continue using the boots but GSG9 official issue boots are adiddas one....since dunno when liao. best boots are Original SWAT one....can practically run with it like a running shoe.... kneel down also easy but its not oil and fire proof though. -
Originally posted by chunyong:revolvers do not jam but sometimes it clicks but the round doesn't discharge....happen b4 while i was still in PA with S&W...my time still using S&W, i POP then Taurus come in.
German's GSG9 more elite i guess....they wear Adiddas boots and then US and UK started to follow their style, end up i think US and UK didn't continue using the boots but GSG9 official issue boots are adiddas one....since dunno when liao. best boots are Original SWAT one....can practically run with it like a running shoe.... kneel down also easy but its not oil and fire proof though.
Bates Boots Rocks!!!! -
Hmm! I guess the reason has to do with the fact that the GIGN are still cops. Meaning that their duties are to protec lives & not gun crazie frenchy.
Using a revolver ensures a cop does not over-kill his suspect. Think of it, 6 shots over 15 shots to a suspect.
Hehehe! But on a nasty note, its probably has to do with their sorry excuse for manhood. You know the length of the barrel. Heheheh!
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wah, like dat also can link to sexual stuff ah.....hahaha.Originally posted by John Ching:Hmm! I guess the reason has to do with the fact that the GIGN are still cops. Meaning that their duties are to protec lives & not gun crazie frenchy.
Using a revolver ensures a cop does not over-kill his suspect. Think of it, 6 shots over 15 shots to a suspect.
Hehehe! But on a nasty note, its probably has to do with their sorry excuse for manhood. You know the length of the barrel. Heheheh! -
J.C. - sorry to say but being HRTs, don't you think that the GIGN has to equip themselves with equipment that will give them an edge over the tangos? I mean, doesn't mean you carry a 15 round mag means you empty it out on a single suspect, otherwise that'll be considered as murder (or is it manslaughter? i dunno)
well, the operator's primary objective is to ensure the safety of the hostages and the objectives and neutralise anyone/anything that gets in the way.. That's what a dive buddy of mine who used to be on a close protection detail team, protecting the royal family or something like that, told me. So it's entry, clear and secure, no?
Someone on the board said that they carried semi-auto sidearms too? Don't you think it's too many things to carry around? Well I dunno, the revolver could carry LTL (less-than-lethal) rounds? Do revolvers accept LTL rounds?
Just my 2 cents..
Palmed -
What you've mentioned about equipment needs, is true. But they are French!Originally posted by palmerised:J.C. - sorry to say but being HRTs, don't you think that the GIGN has to equip themselves with equipment that will give them an edge over the tangos? I mean, doesn't mean you carry a 15 round mag means you empty it out on a single suspect, otherwise that'll be considered as murder (or is it manslaughter? i dunno)
well, the operator's primary objective is to ensure the safety of the hostages and the objectives and neutralise anyone/anything that gets in the way.. That's what a dive buddy of mine who used to be on a close protection detail team, protecting the royal family or something like that, told me. So it's entry, clear and secure, no?
Someone on the board said that they carried semi-auto sidearms too? Don't you think it's too many things to carry around? Well I dunno, the revolver could carry LTL (less-than-lethal) rounds? Do revolvers accept LTL rounds?
Just my 2 cents..
Palmed
Seriously, cases of over-killed by HRTs is actually quite controversial. As you already know police HRTs or SWATs main objective is to protect lives including those of the tangos. But there are questionable cases of SWATs actions in which how a tango was killed.
Recently, I read in the papers about an Israeli officer being charged for emptying his pistol mag into a palestanian little girl.
HM bodyguards are very much like the U.S Secret Service. When they have to draw their weapon, their main objective is to protect only the Queen or President. They do not have to care about hitting a civilian in the line of duty, unlke cops.
As to how many weapons the GIGN guys carry is really up to them & their SOP. Yup, revolvers can use LTL but I have yet to seen any cop or SpecOps using it. -
They like their revolver because it never jams.
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off topic....
if anyone played SWAT3/4 before....
u noe u cant be trigger happy at apprehending suspects...
i played a Hostage rescue that I played with constantly emptying an MP5 magazine in hostage-takers and had a lower point score for "Use of Excessive Force"
and when i replayed the mission and used well aimed shots to the shoulders and legs to incapacitate and make him do no additional harm but not killing him...did not get penalised for "Use of Excessive Force"
the onli time when i really had to kill him is when he poses a threat to my squads or the hostages themselves...
dunno how the above helps......
anyways...
I know SWAT3/4 is onli a game...but the way u need to handle hostage situations is very realistic....unlike in rainbow six where u need to kill all the tangos...when u are in a SWAT(or any law enforcement unit)...things are handled more differently in the Police... -
"10-David to entry team. High-ground reports suspect sighted in room, Side 1, Level 2. Proceed with caution."
Yes I agree with the statement tat SWAT3 is a gd game.. Can't wait for the fourth installment. Due next year, 1st quarter of the year!
Anywayz, on a personal preference, I'd prefer an automatic pistol like a Glock17/18 or even a Colt 1911. -
its all in the mind...Originally posted by dRaKe86:"10-David to entry team. High-ground reports suspect sighted in room, Side 1, Level 2. Proceed with caution."
Yes I agree with the statement tat SWAT3 is a gd game.. Can't wait for the fourth installment. Due next year, 1st quarter of the year! Anywayz, on a personal preference, I'd prefer an automatic pistol like a Glock17/18 or even a Colt 1911. -
Well last time I used to play Raven Shield and whenever my friend and I have an encounter with a tango, as long as he hold he gun he's classified as an 'active shooter' so we neutralise him using the necessary amount of force.
But if we neutralise the threat and at the same time the threat surrenders, TOO BAD for the suspect.. He should have never gotten himself into that situation in the first place. Anyone agree with me on this? (IMHO)
As you clear your sectors, this thing goes through your mind every second, the OODA Loop.. Observe, Orientate, Decide and Action... So as long as I see(observe) and active shooter, i orientate myself toward him, decide what to do and execute it..
Just my 2 cents..
Palm-treeeeeeeee. -
But if you neutralise the threat at the same time he drops his weapon and raises his hands...Originally posted by palmerised:Well last time I used to play Raven Shield and whenever my friend and I have an encounter with a tango, as long as he hold he gun he's classified as an 'active shooter' so we neutralise him using the necessary amount of force.
But if we neutralise the threat and at the same time the threat surrenders, TOO BAD for the suspect.. He should have never gotten himself into that situation in the first place. Anyone agree with me on this? (IMHO)
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At the trial witnesses who are not privy to the conversation may testify:
Yes the deceased did indeed draw a weapon and threaten people.
Yes a law enforcement officer did draw his service arm and pointed it at him
Yes he shot him even as he surrendered.
Then the defence lawyer might say: Gentlemen of the jury, what can we conclude from this? The LEO in question is a bloodthirsty person. He fully intended to shoot the deceased whether or not he surrendered. -
Well...The Isreali incident is this Officer suspect that the little girl is a suicide bomber and emptied his entire carbine at her to neutralise her.Turns out the little ger was clean.
Anyway,talking about use of excessive force,did you know in N.Ireland,SAS did shoot and kill several suspected IRA tangos even when unarmed?As they made sudden movements and were shot as the situation was very tensed back then.So what do you say bout that then?Excessive use of force?I don't think so.Different circumstances require different handling techniques.Just my 2 cents worth . -
Usually in reality, the actions are always auto-reflex. None of that OODA thingy you mentioned. You've got to take into account the hours spent by an operator, or SWAT officer, trainning in a kill house.Originally posted by palmerised:Well last time I used to play Raven Shield and whenever my friend and I have an encounter with a tango, as long as he hold he gun he's classified as an 'active shooter' so we neutralise him using the necessary amount of force.
But if we neutralise the threat and at the same time the threat surrenders, TOO BAD for the suspect.. He should have never gotten himself into that situation in the first place. Anyone agree with me on this? (IMHO)
As you clear your sectors, this thing goes through your mind every second, the OODA Loop.. Observe, Orientate, Decide and Action... So as long as I see(observe) and active shooter, i orientate myself toward him, decide what to do and execute it..
Just my 2 cents..
Palm-treeeeeeeee.
SWAT guys trainning usually involves holding off the kill unless the threat is significant. This is very mentally tough trainning as compared to a military operator whose objective is to remove the tango/charlie/indian/etc without prejudice. -
It seems that the Israeli officer emptied his mag after the little girl was already shot down earlier.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Well...The Isreali incident is this Officer suspect that the little girl is a suicide bomber and emptied his entire carbine at her to neutralise her.Turns out the little ger was clean.
Anyway,talking about use of excessive force,did you know in N.Ireland,SAS did shoot and kill several suspected IRA tangos even when unarmed?As they made sudden movements and were shot as the situation was very tensed back then.So what do you say bout that then?Excessive use of force?I don't think so.Different circumstances require different handling techniques.Just my 2 cents worth .
Ah! You're right about different circumstances requiring different handling techniques but you also mentioned SAS, which is a military outfit. Meaning that military operators don't follow civilian law in handling situations.
Did you read about the assassination attempt on the Afghanistan President sometime back? His BGs then were operators from NEVGrp, the assassin was acutally subdued by 2 members of surrounding afghan. The NEVGrp operator killed all, assassin & heroic afghans.
There was a hooha back in the States over the killing of the 2 heroic Afghan but because of the situation at that time & the fact that the shooter was a SEAL not a SWAT operator. It didn't amount to anything more then a hooha! -
Observe - person with gun pointing at meOriginally posted by palmerised:As you clear your sectors, this thing goes through your mind every second, the OODA Loop.. Observe, Orientate, Decide and Action... So as long as I see(observe) and active shooter, i orientate myself toward him, decide what to do and execute it..
Just my 2 cents..
Palm-treeeeeeeee.
Orientate - swivel to point at him
Decide - should i shoot him in the knee? groin? hand?
Action - Shoot? No Shoot?
How many seconds do you have? -
kb so much for wat ? just shoot and ask questions later, it works all the time.
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a hostage can differentiate bad guys and good guys in half a second...
a policeman must be able to do that even faster....instinct comes into play..