How many Bionix do we have now?
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I understand that Singapore's complete Mechanised Infantry strength, before the Bionix was revealed in 1997, was 800 vehicles. And they are going to replace all of that with Bionix, but stretched out over a long long period. I just read from MilTech World Defence Almanac, that we have 100+ Bionix. We have been phasing in Bionix for 7 years now. How come still only 100+? If this is true, that means we need 70 years to replace all APCs used in Mechanised Infantry role. Feel free to opine.
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Because we are slow.
STK is doing all the work, they got to do this, they got to do that, now got bronco and new arty pieces to manufacture. Where to concentrate? Where? Where? -
100 + ?Originally posted by sane_guy2:I understand that Singapore's complete Mechanised Infantry strength, before the Bionix was revealed in 1997, was 800 vehicles. And they are going to replace all of that with Bionix, but stretched out over a long long period. I just read from MilTech World Defence Almanac, that we have 100+ Bionix. We have been phasing in Bionix for 7 years now. How come still only 100+? If this is true, that means we need 70 years to replace all APCs used in Mechanised Infantry role. Feel free to opine.
not possible =D
Still not gonna tell u actual number wahahah -
100+?? A few years ago u mean?Originally posted by sane_guy2:How come still only 100+? If this is true, that means we need 70 years to replace all APCs used in Mechanised Infantry role. Feel free to opine. -
where got only 100?
lol...
classified info tho..
*screws and unscrews bionix parts* -
Why would they produced the real figures??All these information are classified, top secret and blah blah blah...
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Bionix is the best IFV in the world.
How many are therer?
Never enough.
Some numbers of track vehicles I recall from the public domain:
1000M113s of which ~350 reportedly converted to Ultras
350 BVs?
200 V200s
100 V150s
350 AMX13s dun noe how many upgraded to SM1s (200?)
56 Primus chassis?
No numbers for Bionix or Broncos.
I'm so wrong. -
The number of Bionix was reported to be built abt 300-400 by Armada Int'l.
Likewise they also reported that we going to have abt 500 Bronco.
The number above of cos is not official .
As for Ultra, according to Janes' A&A 97, we bought abt 300 MUGS sight for 40/50 cupola thus with 2:1 ratio with 40/50 to 25mm RWS, my guess is that the Ultra to be abt 300 40/50 and 150 RWS.
But the number of cos could be more if there is more order since 97.
You might say that all these number is not up to date, but it may be accurate at the time of the report.
For example by the number DD engines that we have bought for upgrade of Ultra & Bionix, or the number sights for the 40/50 cupola or the number of 25 RWS that we ordered for upgrade of Ultra, thus the guesstimation.
I dun think we are going to phase out all the M113 in the near future, the Ultra started trial in 1994 and started deliveries from 1995 to at least 1998 so some of them only 5-6 years svc,and the Bionix started delivery in 97.
The point is, the M113 still have many improvement option and many armies are still using or upgrading them so it is really a waste that SAF is retiring them, and I think that the Bionix is here for our expanding orbat , not to replace the M113s , at least not in the near future. -
wow!
Question : Will Bx and Broncos replace existing vehicles or are they used to expand the orbat?
Because it's alot of vehicles for a small country. -
You know nothing about military. For a Armed Forces strength of 250,000 and 3 Division, the numbers are just nice.Originally posted by Fairyland:wow!
Question : Will Bx and Broncos replace existing vehicles or are they used to expand the orbat?
Because it's alot of vehicles for a small country. -
then u know there are not going to have ACS in 10 to 20 years time
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I know that Singapore has like 1200 armoured vehicles, but that figure is unpractical. It includes V-200 which we no longer use in Mechanised Infantry role. And 800 should be more realistic combat strength. And I don't think they are only going to produce 400 Bionix. They will replace all 800 vehicles with Bionix. But this will be done over a long time, most likely in one generation.....25 years. 800 is more likely to be true coz each unit has 40 vehicles, that gives 20 Battalions, which is a very realistic figure. There are four Active units, and we serve 2.5 years (only changed (2) recently, so should take the old number). So that means for every 2.5 years there are 4 units. If you take 12.5 years as one life cycle, then there will be 20 units. I one life cycle is 15.5 years and not 12.5, but not all armour units are Mechanised Infantry, so must adjust downwards to be more realistic.
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Well, u guys r the experts. No doubt.
Just looking for some education that's all.
Bionix and all STK's vehicles are the best and there's never enough of them.
I hope to see the SM-1 replacement. -
Well, imagine a highly mobile force of M8 AGS/UDLP chassis with 120mm smoothbore, Bionix 40/50, M113 Ultra OWS, LSV with Tandem SPIKE-ER, supported by F-16Ds in CAS and SEAD roles.Not bad for an army which is that young.
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Most sources said that we have abt 720 M113s, and TH said that it has increased to abt 1000 units.Let's assume it is 720 units.
There are abt 100+ in oversea training grounds so those will not avialable immediately during conflict , and some not just use for AI only , Arty units with 120 SP mortar carriers , armoured pioneer Pl in AEC, some maybe in support unit as ARVs and maybe some in Medical support units as ambulances.
I have no figure for such units but the number could be as high as 300+ for support units and oversea training.
So leaving abt 400 M113s , just enough for abt 3 armoured bde.( Ultra?)
From 90s to now, we have expanded to RDF 21 Div with armoured element of 22 AMX-10 25ICV and 22 fire support PAC90s.
( A bit small , some additional armour I believe is needed here, M113 Arisgator might be good upgrade)
Then there is the rumoured mechanised div. If this is formed then it will need more IFVs( 360~400 Bionix?), remember the 54 Primus SPH.
One such div will need two Bn of Primus i.e. 36 Primus.
My point is , if indeed going have mechanised div , we do indeed need more IFVs and if Bionix is to replace the M113, then it will be foolish for SAF to upgrade some M113 to Ultra in the first place which is completed just before the introduction of Bionix. -
i think they are vulneral to anti-tank machine guns and the Soviet SWATTER Antitank Guided Missile.am i right?
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Even though the armour protection is classified but it well known the Bionix is heavily armoured with applique armour(Mexas?) and with a steel hull.Originally posted by ceecookie:i think they are vulneral to anti-tank machine guns and the Soviet SWATTER Antitank Guided Missile.am i right?
In term armour protection, it is the best in SEA.
With that in mind, I believe it could withstand at least up to 30mm APFSDS maybe more, but against ATGM which is designed to destroy MBTs , i dun think it could survive that. -
After working with it, frankly, theres a much higher chance of armour penetration if you could curse the driver to crash into an angsana tree.
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The V200s are still being used by certain Guards units in the mechanised infantry role.Originally posted by sane_guy2:I know that Singapore has like 1200 armoured vehicles, but that figure is unpractical. It includes V-200 which we no longer use in Mechanised Infantry role. And 800 should be more realistic combat strength. And I don't think they are only going to produce 400 Bionix. They will replace all 800 vehicles with Bionix. But this will be done over a long time, most likely in one generation.....25 years. 800 is more likely to be true coz each unit has 40 vehicles, that gives 20 Battalions, which is a very realistic figure. There are four Active units, and we serve 2.5 years (only changed (2) recently, so should take the old number). So that means for every 2.5 years there are 4 units. If you take 12.5 years as one life cycle, then there will be 20 units. I one life cycle is 15.5 years and not 12.5, but not all armour units are Mechanised Infantry, so must adjust downwards to be more realistic. -
Now that makes some sense! Thanks Gary. You know me? I think so.Originally posted by gary1910:Most sources said that we have abt 720 M113s, and TH said that it has increased to abt 1000 units.Let's assume it is 720 units.
There are abt 100+ in oversea training grounds so those will not avialable immediately during conflict , and some not just use for AI only , Arty units with 120 SP mortar carriers , armoured pioneer Pl in AEC, some maybe in support unit as ARVs and maybe some in Medical support units as ambulances.
I have no figure for such units but the number could be as high as 300+ for support units and oversea training.
So leaving abt 400 M113s , just enough for abt 3 armoured bde.( Ultra?)
From 90s to now, we have expanded to RDF 21 Div with armoured element of 22 AMX-10 25ICV and 22 fire support PAC90s.
( A bit small , some additional armour I believe is needed here, M113 Arisgator might be good upgrade)
Then there is the rumoured mechanised div. If this is formed then it will need more IFVs( 360~400 Bionix?), remember the 54 Primus SPH.
One such div will need two Bn of Primus i.e. 36 Primus.
My point is , if indeed going have mechanised div , we do indeed need more IFVs and if Bionix is to replace the M113, then it will be foolish for SAF to upgrade some M113 to Ultra in the first place which is completed just before the introduction of Bionix. -
The SM1 replacement is already ready,so we just have to wait patiently before the MINDEF decides its time to announce the new vehicle(such as in the case of BX and Primus) to the public. As for the M113 Ultras, i don't think they will be totally replaced anytime soon as it have a clear advantage of better river-crossing capability as compared to the BX. People who are trained in the BX should know this.
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The USMC uses similar LAVs in the same role of coastal hook operations.Originally posted by bcoy:The V200s are still being used by certain Guards units in the mechanised infantry role. -
With regards to river-crossing. I know that Bx with 24 tons, like the M2 and Warrior, can't really be good. I think that's why they developed the Terrex, but they say it's only for export. SAF not buying any Terrex. We really need something besides the Bionix, as it is obvious that Bionix is like the Western IFVs, and they are all non-river-crossing. The Russians are river-crossing, but only at the expense of lowering armour protection. Any way for real amphibious maybe we should get some LVTP-7.
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Well I posted this two mths ago , ARISGATOR oceanic kit for upgrade of our M113s:Originally posted by sane_guy2:With regards to river-crossing. I know that Bx with 24 tons, like the M2 and Warrior, can't really be good. I think that's why they developed the Terrex, but they say it's only for export. SAF not buying any Terrex. We really need something besides the Bionix, as it is obvious that Bionix is like the Western IFVs, and they are all non-river-crossing. The Russians are river-crossing, but only at the expense of lowering armour protection. Any way for real amphibious maybe we should get some LVTP-7.
and here the thread:
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=94298
Some ARISGATOR M113 in 21 Div will certainly improve our amphibious ops.
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If its for coastal hook and amphibious operations,then I think a better choice would be the AAAv....but of course,that is if we will be allowed to buy them...