Good looking rifles
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Did I in anyway claimed that you're bullshitting? If no, why the hell are you busting my balls?Originally posted by Weirdo80:Once again, I have NO IDEA where you're getting your stories from. Firstly, if only SMGs have the full-auto capability, why does the M16A1/M16S1 have the full auto mode?? They were designed as "assault rifles", mind you. Also, the M4 HAS FULL AUTO! Where do you get your doctrines from?
The Ak-47 was NOT DESIGNED AS AN SMG. According to SovietArmy.com, " It was the basic individual infantry weapon of the Soviet Army until the introduction of the AKM." Do you give new recruits SMGs to fire?? Does a BMT recruit learn how to shoot terrorists in a 747 cabin on the first day of BMT? And NOBODY chambers an SMG with a 7.62 x 39 mm round, dude. The Ak-47 is 86.9cm long. At that length, it would not perform well as an SMG for FIBUA/MOUT fights in confined spaces. Your claim that the AK-47 was used in ambushes on full-auto with results is dubious. According to Jane's, "The barrel overheats quickly when the weapon fires for extended periods, making the weapon hard to handle and occasionally causing a round to explode prematurely in the chamber. " I don't think anyone in his right mind would use the AK-47 as a section/platoon support weapon lor. That's why they came up with the RPD and RPK. One more thing, the Vietcong were strapped for ammo and weapons, unlike their NVA counterparts in the North. They were using a mish-mash of AKs, SKSs, Mosin-Nagants and captured US weapons. Do you think they used ammo very freely? Also, first-hand accounts mentioned that the Vietcong were adept at SNIPING, not spraying. If you want to hit someone accurately, you do not fire on full-auto. Besides, the AK-47 DOES NOT have a bipod like the BAR, making the recoil of automatic fire something that the firer has to bear. Firing 7.62mm rounds on full auto without support? You watch too many movies......
It's true that the M249 and M240 are better for auto fire - that's what they were designed for (there isn't even a semi-auto mode for these weapons). However, according to the NATO TOE, M249s cost 2.5 times more than M16A2s, and M240s cost 3.3 times more than M16A2s. How much will it cost to field an army of machine gunners? Plus the fact that each gunner needs about a thousand rounds of ammo. Not practical. And what happens when you see a sniper in the window 100m away? Waste 20 rounds spraying into the whole building? Wouldn't a well-placed rifle shot do the trick?
Have you ever fired M16 on full -auto & compare it with firing a SMG? M16/M4 fires semi-auto, period. Where do I get my doctrines? From my years in United States Army, happy.
I would not give a recruit a SMG but that does not mean the Russkis won't. In any case have you gone through Russian military trainning to speak on their behalf?
Did I also talked about using AKs for MOUTs? I know I didn't but the Russian were using it in Beslan during the school hostage situation.
Have you ever been in an ambush fight? It usually don't last more then 15mins because after emptying 1 clip, the ambusher would high-tail out of the fight. So theres no extended period of fight to worry about barrel over heating. Just look at the Iraqi militants, they are not fighting any U.S troop for prolong face on confrontation. Instead, preferring to fire off blindly & then run off.
The Russkis & China were supplying the VCs with ammos & weapons, so yeah, the VCs could fire off auto. If you're not convince, check the the vietnam ops record. You'll see how many weapons dumb site were hit during that war, yet the VCs still had enough ammos & weapons to last.
You obiviously haven't fired an AK-47 to talk to me about its recoil impact, either that or you don't know how to hold onto the weapon.
Now you talk about sniper attack. U.S Marines' respond to a sniper attack, is 1 round from the barrel of an M1 tank or hellfire missiles from a cobra gunship. U.S Army responded to Saddam's son AK-47 fire with with no less then 2 TOW missile, 3 50.cal mounted guns, a battalion of infantry & a team of SpecOps. Tell me what movie was I watching that from.? -
donch fight donch fight!
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From my years in United States Army, happy.
What was your MOS? Unit? Rank?
I cannot believe that someone who was once in the US army doesn't know that the M4 has a full auto capability.
Will rebutt your other statements later. Busy now. -
Interesting to see a bunch of armchair military buffs argue about who's right and who's wrong...
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Armchair? I also served my time in the military....and received my fair share of shit. Don't speak for other people, assuming just makes you look bad.
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Yes I have, and I have also been trained in the operation and tactical use of the MP5A4 submachine gun. I have also fired the FN P90. The M16 definetely gives more kick than the MP5, but controllable by a trained rifleman.
Have you ever fired M16 on full -auto & compare it with firing a SMG?M16/M4 fires semi-auto, period.
Wrong. The M16A1 and the M4 have semi and auto modes of fire. The M16A2/A3/A4 have semi and three-round burst modes. Surely anyone who has done basic training in the US army knows this. The study of the M16A2 rifle is one of the common task tests in basic - surely you could not have passed this and not known that the M16A2 has a three-round burst mode? In week 4 you have marksmanship training.
Sir, according to Russian military directives, recruits are to be issued only with the AK-47 7.62mm or AK-74 5.56mm assault rifles. Only Spetnaz troopers are issued with the folding-butt AKS-74 assault rifle. None of these are sub-machine guns.
I would not give a recruit a SMG but that does not mean the Russkis won't. In any case have you gone through Russian military trainning to speak on their behalf?
Firstly, it takes much less than 15 minutes to empty a clip. Secondly, you are generalising that all ambushes are short-term encounters. Let me give you 2 examples of this not being true. This is not an exhaustive list.
Did I also talked about using AKs for MOUTs? I know I didn't but the Russian were using it in Beslan during the school hostage situation.
Have you ever been in an ambush fight? It usually don't last more then 15mins because after emptying 1 clip, the ambusher would high-tail out of the fight. So theres no extended period of fight to worry about barrel over heating. Just look at the Iraqi militants, they are not fighting any U.S troop for prolong face on confrontation. Instead, preferring to fire off blindly & then run off.
November 1965. The battle of Ia Drang valley, in which 450 US soldiers found themselves surrounded by 2,000 NVA troops. What ensued was an intense engagement where the US soldiers were repeatedly engaged. It lasted 3 days. Not 15 minutes.
February 22 - April 14, 1968. The siege of Khe Sanh. The 26th Marine regiment were under the attack by NVA forces trying to take over their firebase. According to Bruce M. Geiger, platoon leader of support platoon, 1st company 26th Marine regiment, the NVA and VC forces used SNIPERS to constantly harrass them. Not automatic fire. Automatic fire was only encountered when the enemy tried to rush their base. And this engagement lasted over 2 months. Not 15 minutes.
I think you mean dump site :-) The continuous bombing and harrassment of the Ho Chi Minh trail meant that obtaining supplies from the North was extremely dicey. This made ammunition and weapons hard to obtain and sustain. Therefore the Vietcong had to resort to stealing weapons from the Americans. The massive caches of weapons found were mainly US weapons and supplies. However, this made it more confusing for the VC who had to then field multiple calibres of weapons. The bombing strikes of Linebacker I and II, Rolling Thunder and subsequent attacks nearly obliterated the North's ability to resupply. With no assistance from their Northern allies, the VCs were strapped for ammo, weapons and supplies. Any respectable soldier makes every bullet count, but for the VC it was even more important to do so. That dearth of modern weapons gave rise to the usage of home-made explosives and booby traps (punji stake, spiked balls, etc)
The Russkis & China were supplying the VCs with ammos & weapons, so yeah, the VCs could fire off auto. If you're not convince, check the the vietnam ops record. You'll see how many weapons dumb site were hit during that war, yet the VCs still had enough ammos & weapons to last.
I have, thank you very much, and I believed I was sufficiently trained in the basic handling and firing of that weapon. Still, I experienced much tighter groupings on semi-auto than auto. Any respectable infantry-trained man will tell you that you are more accurate on semi and save ammunition thus extending your duration of lethality. That's why the auto mode was disabled from the M16A2 and subsequent models.
You obiviously haven't fired an AK-47 to talk to me about its recoil impact, either that or you don't know how to hold onto the weapon.
Sir, precisely. There is something wrong when you need so much firepower to overcome one fella holed up on a rooftop, something is wrong.
Now you talk about sniper attack. U.S Marines' respond to a sniper attack, is 1 round from the barrel of an M1 tank or hellfire missiles from a cobra gunship. U.S Army responded to Saddam's son AK-47 fire with with no less then 2 TOW missile, 3 50.cal mounted guns, a battalion of infantry & a team of SpecOps. Tell me what movie was I watching that from.?
I hope that rebuttals can be answered with historical references and if not, a simple apology like a gentleman.
Good day to you. -
i love garand and KAR. if i not wrong is the 1 use by the germans
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Hahaha!Originally posted by ken_nerve:Interesting to see a bunch of armchair military buffs argue about who's right and who's wrong...
You're a wiseman, my friend.
Its really pathetic of armchair military buffs, like myself, to be arguing over who's right & who's wrong.
But just so that you understand why its happening, someone chose to bite my balls when all I did was give my point of view.
If that person had just stick to talking about the issue instead of being offensive, I would've walked away from a girlie match that is going on.
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So you've shot MP5s & P90s then you ought to know the differents between a full auto & a semi-auto.Originally posted by Weirdo80:Sir, precisely. There is something wrong when you need so much firepower to overcome one fella holed up on a rooftop, something is wrong.
I hope that rebuttals can be answered with historical references and if not, a simple apology like a gentleman.
Good day to you.
The last I fired the M16/M4s, there're only 3 selection of fire rate. Lock, single & burst( semi-auto ). So unless theres a 4 selection that isn't marked, I've got no ideal where the auto fire selection is.
Again, I asked of you, have you done any military trainning in the Russian army? No need to tell me about their trainning directives, words means little, actions speak louder.
Blar, blar, blar, about the Viet fire fights but you still don't see the differents between a firefight & an ambush.
I was replying to your views about the recoil on the AK & not about your groupings on semi or auto selections. But since you've talked about it, my view is that as long as your shots hits its target, who gives a shit if its a tight group or not? The guy on the receiving end of your shots, sure as hell ain't going to tell you that your groupings are off.
With regards to the way the U.S military respond to sniper attacks, have you been in on the receiving end of a sniper attack? Please respond with real world personal experience & not history referrences.
Well, I'm not an Englishman but I'll accept your apology in any form. -
Good lord. is this what happens when u chuck 2 people with military backgrounds in to talk about GOOD LOOKING rifles? hello... we were discussing AESTHETICS here for crying out loud.
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yeah, this kind of spiralling out of control thread happens in all forums.. they all go this way.
anyway:The last I fired the M16/M4s, there're only 3 selection of fire rate. Lock, single & burst( semi-auto ). So unless theres a 4 selection that isn't marked, I've got no ideal where the auto fire selection is.
you have to specify which version, as certain versions are indeed full-auto capable.
saying just 'M16/M4' is far too vague.
for the standard us infantry rifleman, theyll be issued the M16A2. this is fire select in semi and burst only.
one of the latest versions of the M16 series in service is the M16A3, which is full-auto.
the A1 variant of the M4 is full-auto.
the various 'commando' [generic term] versions come in either burst or full-auto variants.
so both posters are right and wrong. they just needed to specify which model theyre referring to. -
this one nice or not n00bs?
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You're right on the money. But let me expand on your point.Originally posted by zoik:yeah, this kind of spiralling out of control thread happens in all forums.. they all go this way.
anyway:
you have to specify which version, as certain versions are indeed full-auto capable.
saying just 'M16/M4' is far too vague.
for the standard us infantry rifleman, theyll be issued the M16A2. this is fire select in semi and burst only.
one of the latest versions of the M16 series in service is the M16A3, which is full-auto.
the A1 variant of the M4 is full-auto.
the various 'commando' [generic term] versions come in either burst or full-auto variants.
so both posters are right and wrong. they just needed to specify which model theyre referring to.
M16A2 is a semi-auto rifle. M16A3 is not issued to most soldiers unless your part of a sniper/scout team. The M16A3 has the full auto fire selection & is also known as the M16A3 sniper rifle not because its used as the primary sniping rifle but rather as the spotter's support weapon.
The M4 it self does not have the full auto fire selection either. Its the M4A1 that has the full auto fire selection. -
i think regarding the sniper topic....nothing is overkill against a sniper as long as u are living......living is being practical...Originally posted by John Ching:So you've shot MP5s & P90s then you ought to know the differents between a full auto & a semi-auto.
The last I fired the M16/M4s, there're only 3 selection of fire rate. Lock, single & burst( semi-auto ). So unless theres a 4 selection that isn't marked, I've got no ideal where the auto fire selection is.
Again, I asked of you, have you done any military trainning in the Russian army? No need to tell me about their trainning directives, words means little, actions speak louder.
Blar, blar, blar, about the Viet fire fights but you still don't see the differents between a firefight & an ambush.
I was replying to your views about the recoil on the AK & not about your groupings on semi or auto selections. But since you've talked about it, my view is that as long as your shots hits its target, who gives a shit if its a tight group or not? The guy on the receiving end of your shots, sure as hell ain't going to tell you that your groupings are off.
With regards to the way the U.S military respond to sniper attacks, have you been in on the receiving end of a sniper attack? Please respond with real world personal experience & not history referrences.
Well, I'm not an Englishman but I'll accept your apology in any form. -
burst is semi auto??? burst is a 3 round burst if i am not wrongOriginally posted by John Ching:So you've shot MP5s & P90s then you ought to know the differents between a full auto & a semi-auto.
The last I fired the M16/M4s, there're only 3 selection of fire rate. Lock, single & burst( semi-auto ). So unless theres a 4 selection that isn't marked, I've got no ideal where the auto fire selection is.
Again, I asked of you, have you done any military trainning in the Russian army? No need to tell me about their trainning directives, words means little, actions speak louder.
Blar, blar, blar, about the Viet fire fights but you still don't see the differents between a firefight & an ambush.
I was replying to your views about the recoil on the AK & not about your groupings on semi or auto selections. But since you've talked about it, my view is that as long as your shots hits its target, who gives a shit if its a tight group or not? The guy on the receiving end of your shots, sure as hell ain't going to tell you that your groupings are off.
With regards to the way the U.S military respond to sniper attacks, have you been in on the receiving end of a sniper attack? Please respond with real world personal experience & not history referrences.
Well, I'm not an Englishman but I'll accept your apology in any form. -
Agreed - semi-auto is defined as one round per squeeze of the trigger, without the need to manually chamber another round. Three-round burst is full-auto limited to three shots.Originally posted by Geforce3:burst is semi auto??? burst is a 3 round burst if i am not wrong
John, I think you're going to need to be a lot tighter with your terms and definitions to avoid further misunderstanding. -
Hahaha!
Yup yup.. lets get over this and back to the topic.
You're a wiseman, my friend.
Its really pathetic of armchair military buffs, like myself, to be arguing over who's right & who's wrong.
But just so that you understand why its happening, someone chose to bite my balls when all I did was give my point of view.
If that person had just stick to talking about the issue instead of being offensive, I would've walked away from a girlie match that is going on. quote]
Virtual Tough Guys...
But have to admit, if what that guy say is true, quite impressive leh. Fire such a variety of weapons before. Also bother to go search all the trivia.
[quote]Originally posted by HENG@:
Good lord. is this what happens when u chuck 2 people with military backgrounds in to talk about GOOD LOOKING rifles? hello... we were discussing [b]AESTHETICS here for crying out loud.[/b] -
I hope you're an officer in the military by profession because you're right. A pro-sniper isn't easy to pin-point in his tuff. So, if given the oppotunity, the U.S Marines would chose to obliterate the area where an enemy sniper is assume to be. Unfortunately, that would be against some form of rights that anti-war heros would argue about.Originally posted by sidestep1984:i think regarding the sniper topic....nothing is overkill against a sniper as long as u are living......living is being practical... -
My bad on the matter, but the guy did said he had experience on the weapon therefore he should know what I'm blarring about, right?Originally posted by Gedanken:Agreed - semi-auto is defined as one round per squeeze of the trigger, without the need to manually chamber another round. Three-round burst is full-auto limited to three shots.
John, I think you're going to need to be a lot tighter with your terms and definitions to avoid further misunderstanding. -
You're right.Originally posted by ken_nerve:Yup yup.. lets get over this and back to the topic.
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nah..well i hope to be one in a years time...was having a conversation regarding snipers(after cnn showed a clip of snipers using minarets as cover a year back) with some officers and they all agreed on how the marine officer reacted....its wat they would do too..considering u noe the direction but not the exact location of where he is hiding and he probably can use well aimed shots at u but not the other way round...1 well-trained sniper is all it takes to pin down a squad or even a company...if he's holed up pretty good....bury him inside where he is hiding..Originally posted by John Ching:I hope you're an officer in the military by profession because you're right. A pro-sniper isn't easy to pin-point in his tuff. So, if given the oppotunity, the U.S Marines would chose to obliterate the area where an enemy sniper is assume to be. Unfortunately, that would be against some form of rights that anti-war heros would argue about. -
just wondering... how do u ensure that an enemy sniper is dead? blasting buildings into rubble actually makes them better for hiding in, and there is no gurantee that an enemy sniper is dead just because u've blasted the building into rubble.Originally posted by John Ching:I hope you're an officer in the military by profession because you're right. A pro-sniper isn't easy to pin-point in his tuff. So, if given the oppotunity, the U.S Marines would chose to obliterate the area where an enemy sniper is assume to be. Unfortunately, that would be against some form of rights that anti-war heros would argue about. -
ermm.....he stops shooting????hehehehehe......Originally posted by HENG@:just wondering... how do u ensure that an enemy sniper is dead? blasting buildings into rubble actually makes them better for hiding in, and there is no gurantee that an enemy sniper is dead just because u've blasted the building into rubble. -
Use another sniper on the sniper... countersniping is the surest way to get that joker...