What the best Infantry section size ?
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In the old days infantry section are 9 men. Then it went down to 7 men.
Seem to be the same with the rest of the army world wide. However the US Marine still retain a good size as need to expect casulties which soon make too small a section ineffective and impractical.
Your thoughts on it, and how they should best be armed with.
To me I still prefer 9 men section. As you still can effectively break them into 3 man team which have the right fire power still and in the even of injuries, still have manpower to evaculate the injuired while still engage the enemy.
my choice would be.
Group1 :
M16
M16-m203
ultimax 100
Group2 :
M16
M16-m203
ultimax 100
group3 :
M16
GPMG
M16 - medic -
In my opinion....
1 Sergeant
Assault Rifle with grenade launcher
2 GPMG Gunners(hehehe......must be super big ppl sia..of course...need to carry ammo and stuff...size matters...lol)
1 Medic
2 LAWS carriers
1 Signalman
2 Riflemen with grenade launchers.....
i think arh this would be ideal in my own little world...i think will be abit overkill...but wat the heck...fantasy wat....wat abt u guys?...wat would u guys have ure Infantry section armed with? -
man i say this is the best man.
1 sgt, carrying 2 law, 2 saw, 3 rifles, 2 m203.
6 men carrying food, radio, tv, game console, poker cards, mahjong table, dvd player, handphone, pornographic dvds, drugs, cigarettes
now thats kewl man.
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You know why the Sgt carry 2 law , 2 saw, 3 rifles , 2 m203 ?Originally posted by Jace d' Alvarado:man i say this is the best man.
1 sgt, carrying 2 law, 2 saw, 3 rifles, 2 m203.
6 men carrying food, radio, tv, game console, poker cards, mahjong table, dvd player, handphone, pornographic dvds, drugs, cigarettes
now thats kewl man.
That is because you are one of the 6 men that he will use them on ! He will shoot 1st with all 3 rifles ! follow by 2 m203 then 2 saw and finally to make sure nothing if left , the 2 law !!!
Think after that nothing much left to kewl !!! Dude ! -
+1Originally posted by storywolf:You know why the Sgt carry 2 law , 2 saw, 3 rifles , 2 m203 ?
That is because you are one of the 6 men that he will shoot 1st with all 3 rifles ! follow by 2 m203 then 2 saw and finally to make sure nothing if left , the 2 saw !!!
well i think the ultimate in a army general's ORBAT will be 3 sections, each section with 3 man ..haa..each men has a weapon of a section.similar to those Dune Harkornne troopers.with gatling gun and mini rockets encased in armour suits..
just joking above..
well i think a 7 men section is pretty gd enough. Just curious does the US Army Squad contains a MG team in each squad ? -
same as what SAF have now
cept' change the sharpshooter to have a 4x scope and a better auto rifle -
LRRP operates in 6 man teams..Sometimes 5..
SOG in Vietnam operates wth 3 Americans , 6 Yards. -
I just don't know about the 7 man section.
You see in a 9 men team,
even if 3 man is shot, you got 3 men attending to them and getting them out of harm way, all along with 3 man still providing fire to keep the enemy down = you still have 1 group strength firing .
Sort of if 7 man !!! 3 man down, you are totally screwed 1/2 already gone, you cannot provide fire and help the injuried the same time. Sort of a little to thin, the number maybe good but it don't cater to any injuries. -
in the 7 man section, the moment 1 man goes down, the section is screwed alr wad.
1 Casualty
2 Casevac
left 4 ppl, fight what? Run loh. -
The reason why we move from 9 men to 7 men is because of demographic reason.
With lower number of enlistees, the SAF is force to reduce the number of men per section = lesser men per company = lesser men per Bn so that it can retain the same number of Unit (Bn) and Formations (Bde and Div) with a lower number of men. if stick to 9 men section, will have to scrap some Unit and Formation and then where are we going to post the scholars. -
Actually we move down from 9 men to 7 men is not because of demographic reason.Originally posted by spencer99:The reason why we move from 9 men to 7 men is because of demographic reason.
With lower number of enlistees, the SAF is force to reduce the number of men per section = lesser men per company = lesser men per Bn so that it can retain the same number of Unit (Bn) and Formations (Bde and Div) with a lower number of men. if stick to 9 men section, will have to scrap some Unit and Formation and then where are we going to post the scholars.
It is more of a move toward mechanised infantries. In the past, usually we are expect to be of 9 men section, but that prove too huge section to be transported in a armour vehicles like M113 . Thus the move towards 7 person section which did not break up the group and yet all feeded into on vehicle. Nowaday that mean we would expect our infantries to ride into wars and not like old times, walk walk around to look for enemy, also their ride - vehicle will provide the fire support to make up the less manpower. -
If that's the case, then are we indeed becoming mechanised? I have never been seen an M113 or a Bionix in real life, much less been in one.Originally posted by storywolf:Actually we move down from 9 men to 7 men is not because of demographic reason.
It is more of a move toward mechanised infantries. In the past, usually we are expect to be of 9 men section, but that prove too huge section to be transported in a armour vehicles like M113 . Thus the move towards 7 person section which did not break up the group and yet all feeded into on vehicle. Nowaday that mean we would expect our infantries to ride into wars and not like old times, walk walk around to look for enemy, also their ride - vehicle will provide the fire support to make up the less manpower.
But I think that demographic factors were a major component in the decision to trim down the size of the infantry section. I remember reading a Straits Times article on manpower management in the SAF with regards to the shrinking population. Not only were the infantry sections trimmed, they farmed out services like catering and some forms of transport to the private sector.
That said, having extra men around in the section wouldn't hurt too much. While the sect comd may have some extra headaches controlling a couple more men, I'm sure with some practice he'll appreciate having the extra muscle. -
7 men section is too small. In my time , the 9 men section was adequate. You have 3 small fire teams for the commander to deploy as he wish and provide back up.
In WW2, some American infantry sections were 11 to 13 strong, and they were already partly mobile/ mechanised.
Most times, because of various factors, sickness, injury... other duties.... the 9 men section of the past was sometimes 8 soldiers. During my reservist, when 7 men section was implemented.... on one or 2 occasions some sections had to merge for training because of lack of soldiers... became a section plus for training ! In real ops, I would expect this to happen, as a result of injury, KIA, attachment to other companies etc etc . The resultant section may end up too small to be effective for fighting, except for recce patrol. -
Obviously not GPMG trained, a GPMG team is actually a three man team, gunner, 2nd Gunner/ammo and Calafaire.Originally posted by storywolf:..my choice would be.
Group1 :
M16
M16-m203
ultimax 100
Group2 :
M16
M16-m203
ultimax 100
group3 :
M16
GPMG
M16 - medic
If you have carried a GPMG up biang you know why need 3 men. -
Baer don't go around insulting people as not GPMG trained when you are the one that is not trainned. You are just blindly following what your so call instructor teach you and are too narrow minded !!!Originally posted by baer:Obviously not GPMG trained, a GPMG team is actually a three man team, gunner, 2nd Gunner/ammo and Calafaire.
If you have carried a GPMG up biang you know why need 3 men.
GMPG is not just mean to be a good support weapon. It is a good powerful weapon even in assualt mission.
If you are taught that way does not mean, other like us are taught the same.
Yes they do train some folks on 3 man fire support team which 3 man GPMG team you say, that the junior level man !!!
But there are other way to deploy the GMPG, we are taught to do assault with it and are trained to handle it on our own - one person - using bipod. Each GPMG - 1 gunner with ammo. Those with M16s only will help to carry the extra ammos.
I personally carry the GMPG alone and other also did the same in each exerise which see us move 50km per day usually in each exerise, yep in exercise you curse like shit, but when in real war, it is worth its weight in gold .
Just because you are so lousy trained - that you must have 3 person then can use a GMPG, please do not assume other units or people are not better train till one gunner can ownself use a GMPG !!! -
yeah...when somehow a soldier is trained to use a GPMG by himself without needing another person to carry the ammo...that made him a force multiplier...such things can be trained over time of course....Originally posted by storywolf:Baer don't go around insulting people as not GPMG trained when you are the one that is not trainned !!! and totally narrow minded. You are just blindly following what your so call instructor teach you !!!
If you are taught that way does not mean, other like us are taught the same.
Sorry man I am not trainned that way !!!
2 man team for each GPMG - 1 gunner with ammo, the other is m16 + help extra GMPG rounds, no tripod, we use the GMPG own bipod ! By the way the GMPG gunner is expect to operate the GMPG on his own, and the other is just helping to carry extra ammo. In fact the whole team, in real if ever a war, think the whole team will all help to carry the extra ammo so that we have as much GMPG round as possible.
If you look at navy seal, each team have at least 2 M60 machine gun and operated by one man and other is to help carry ammo.
Even other army use 1 man to operate, an other to help carry extra ammo. If you look at blackhawk down, the 2 clowns that got left behind, one is carrying a light machine gun , the other is M240 (GPMP) and using it himself.
anywaes....i was wondering....off topic...
if lets say u are in a section...
a machinegunner or someone carrying some LAWS is having trouble with his load....wat would u do?....just stare and dont help becos somehow u arent supposed to carry watever he is carrying and just mind ure business?...or u chip in and help with some of his load? -
Originally posted by storywolf:
..my choice would be.
Group1 :
M16
M16-m203
ultimax 100
Group2 :
M16 ( can help carry extra GPMG rounds)
M16-m203
ultimax 100
group3 :
M16 ( can help carry extra GPMG rounds )
GPMG - can carry GPMG with 1 or 2 belt
M16 - medic
Baer - why cannot ???? -
Sorry for US and England, their infantry machine gunner are all trainned to handle the m204 or GPMG alone.Originally posted by sidestep1984:yeah...when somehow a soldier is trained to use a GPMG by himself without needing another person to carry the ammo...that made him a force multiplier...such things can be trained over time of course....
anywaes....i was wondering....off topic...
if lets say u are in a section...
a machinegunner or someone carrying some LAWS is having trouble with his load....wat would u do?....just stare and dont help becos somehow u arent supposed to carry watever he is carrying and just mind ure business?...or u chip in and help with some of his load?
Even in the movie blackhawk down, they show the 2 clown that got left behind, one with light machine gun, and the other is the M240 ( GMPG).
Think people need to see GMPG more then a support weapon that need to be fix onto a vehicle or tripod. -
just stating that things can be trained...
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Baer, let me put myself in the firing line for you - I think you are getting some unfair flakOriginally posted by storywolf:Baer don't go around insulting people as not GPMG trained when you are the one that is not trainned. You are just blindly following what your so call instructor teach you and are too narrow minded !!!
GMPG is not just mean to be a good support weapon. It is a good powerful weapon even in assualt mission.
If you are taught that way does not mean, other like us are taught the same.
Yes they do train some folks on 3 man fire support team which 3 man GPMG team you say, that the junior level man !!!
But there are other way to deploy the GMPG, we are taught to do assault with it and are trained to handle it on our own - one person - using bipod. Each GPMG - 1 gunner with ammo. Those with M16s only will help to carry the extra ammos.
I personally carry the GMPG alone and other also did the same in each exerise which see us move 50km per day usually in each exerise, yep in exercise you curse like shit, but when in real war, it is worth its weight in gold .
Just because you are so lousy trained - that you must have 3 person then can use a GMPG, please do not assume other units or people are not better train till one gunner can ownself use a GMPG !!!
The 81mm mortar is not just mean [sic] to be a good support weapon. It is a good powerful weapon even in assualt[sic] mission.
Yes they do train some folks that mortar needs a fire support team.
But there are other way[sic] to deploy the 81mm mortar, we can to do assault with it and to handle it on our own - one person - not even using bipod (the mortar is only 31 kgs without the bipod, 43.6 with bipod). Each mortar - 1 mortar man with ammo (each only 4kgs). Those with M16s only will help to carry the extra ammos. Oh hell isn't that why it is called a team effort? Ha ha ha ...
Just because everyone is so lousy trained[sic] - it doesn't mean that you must have 3 person then can use an 81mm mortar, please do not assume other units or people in all armies in the world are not better train till one mortar man can ownself use an 81mm mortar!!!
Hmm, wonder if I can extend the argument to a 120mm mortar - after all, I spent the whole reservist with a similarly armed weapon.
Now let's see. If the commander can be trained to drive the Primus, then he can deploy the SPH. Preparing and loading a 155 projectile is a one person job, and so is preparing and loading the charge. The commander can then lay the weapon and fire the gun. The commander can do it all himself!!!
HEY !!! I HAVE SOLVED THE ENTIRE SAF MANPOWER PROBLEM HA...HA...HA... -
The section would consist 3 groups of 3 each.
Group 1:
- Section commander: M16/SAR21 + M203
- Medic: M16/SAR21
- M16/SAR21 + 60mm mortar
Group 2: (Anti-tank)
- M16/SAR21 + Matador (Short range engagement)
- M16/SAR21 + MILAN (Medium range engagement)
- M16/SAR21 + Spike (long range engagement)
Group 3: (Support)
- SAW
- Minigun (5.56mm)
- GPMG
Section members carrying support weapon would need help carrying exta ammunition, and therefore, as some in this thread had suggested, those armed ONLY with an assault rifle will carry the extra ammo.
Poor medic -
Originally posted by dragonstar:
Dragonstar a 120mm mortar weight 31 kg to compare it with a about 10kg gun ? Also a mortar round is how heavy and a 7.62 round is how heavy. Man you sure fail maths!
Baer, let me put myself in the firing line for you - I think you are getting some unfair flak
The 81mm mortar is not just mean [sic] to be a good support weapon. It is a good powerful weapon even in assualt[sic] mission.
Yes they do train some folks that mortar needs a fire support team.
But there are other way[sic] to deploy the 81mm mortar, we can to do assault with it and to handle it on our own - one person - [b]not even using bipod (the mortar is only 31 kgs without the bipod, 43.6 with bipod). Each mortar - 1 mortar man with ammo (each only 4kgs). Those with M16s only will help to carry the extra ammos. Oh hell isn't that why it is called a team effort? Ha ha ha ...
Just because everyone is so lousy trained[sic] - it doesn't mean that you must have 3 person then can use an 81mm mortar, please do not assume other units or people in all armies in the world are not better train till one mortar man can ownself use an 81mm mortar!!!
Hmm, wonder if I can extend the argument to a 120mm mortar - after all, I spent the whole reservist with a similarly armed weapon.
Now let's see. If the commander can be trained to drive the Primus, then he can deploy the SPH. Preparing and loading a 155 projectile is a one person job, and so is preparing and loading the charge. The commander can then lay the weapon and fire the gun. The commander can do it all himself!!!
HEY !!! I HAVE SOLVED THE ENTIRE SAF MANPOWER PROBLEM HA...HA...HA...
[/b]
Anyway you will be the first person to go down in history who wil bring a 120mm mortar and do a assualt charge right into the enemy. Possible it a good try to make the enemy die from laughing.
We are just telling Baer how other units use the GPMG ! And we have personally done that 1 person as GMPG gunner with other carry m16 carry the extra ammos. For you dragonstar, please have some respect for yourself, and if you have not done that with a 120mm mortar then don't talkcock.
I am just tell you how others and armies in the world are using the GMPG. -
Have you serve your NS yet?Originally posted by dragonstar:The section would consist 3 groups of 3 each.
Group 1:
- Section commander: M16/SAR21 + M203
- Medic: M16/SAR21
- M16/SAR21 + 60mm mortar
Group 2: (Anti-tank)
- M16/SAR21 + Matador (Short range engagement)
- M16/SAR21 + MILAN (Medium range engagement)
- M16/SAR21 + Spike (long range engagement)
Group 3: (Support)
- SAW
- Minigun (5.56mm)
- GPMG
Section members carrying support weapon would need help carrying exta ammunition, and therefore, as some in this thread had suggested, those armed ONLY with an assault rifle will carry the extra ammo.
Poor medic
- M16/SAR21 + 60mm mortar
- M16/SAR21 + MILAN (Medium range engagement)
- M16/SAR21 + Spike (long range engagement)
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Read my post - 31kg is for 81mm - a 120mm weighs 230+ kgs in action. Any sensible person would know how ridiculous my proposition is - and so it should - as it was meant to be humourous - so relaxOriginally posted by storywolf:Dragonstar a 120mm mortar weight 31 kg to compare it with a about 10kg gun ? Also a mortar round is how heavy and a 7.62 round is how heavy. Man you sure fail maths!
Anyway you will be the first person to go down in history who wil bring a 120mm mortar and do a assualt charge right into the enemy. Possible it a good try to make the enemy die from laughing.
We are just telling Baer how other units use the GPMG ! And we have personally done that 1 person as GMPG gunner with other carry m16 carry the extra ammos. For you dragonstar, please have some respect for yourself, and if you have not done that with a 120mm mortar then don't talkcock.
I am just tell you how others and armies in the world are using the GMPG.
If the enemy die laughing - all the more better - don't even need to expend ammo
As for having respect for myself - I have - and lots of it. The purpose of my post was to highlight that everyone has his point of view - including Baer. That you see things differently does not mean that you are right and he is wrong. From your perspective, you could be right and at the same time, for his point of view he could also be right.
As for talking cock, well, practically everyone here has at one time or another done so (I don't think that you can deny that you have not) Here's some more cock - wanna hear? kwock kwock kwock kwock kwock ...
So don't get so worked up -
See my previous post - it was meant to be humourous. Have I served my NS? You bet - finished national service AND reservist obligations.Originally posted by gary1910:Have you serve your NS yet?
- M16/SAR21 + 60mm mortar
- M16/SAR21 + MILAN (Medium range engagement)
- M16/SAR21 + Spike (long range engagement)