SAR-21 - Like or Don't like?
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I fly frequently between Shanghai, Beijing, Hong Kong (less now) and SIngapore.
So I have had chance to see he military and police of all three countries.
Have you guys seen the HK SWAT teams patrolling their airport? They're decked out in blue uniform, black beret and MP5 or just a pistol in SWAT-style leg holster.
They look very "the business". Most of them does some bodybuilding, all meet a certain height requirement and most importantly, they all look mature and confident. There are also some angmos left over from the colonial days still serving.
Our SAF spec ops or police SWAT or SWAT guys look just as impressive.
But those few times I saw our NS or NSF guys at the airport with their SAR-21, man... I must say they didn't look impressive. And they look timid and unsure instead of confident. Mnay, like myself, wore glasses.
In fact, they look like very tempting targets for someone to snatch a weapon if not for the SWAT guys escorting them.
I really think that if anyone was to be scared, it would be the passengers as the NSF guys look like amatuers. And being a NS man myself, I know that we are NOT trained to handle or discharge weapons in an area FILLED with innocent civilians.
In China you basically don't see any armed personnel at the airports.
Mainly because China is not yet on alert for such eventuality. But those paramilitary guys guarding important buildings and installations can range from very friendly to very regimental. Those in Beijing does not hesitate to shout at people whether they are local or foreign. And if you try to take their photos you'll be in for a rude shock. -
Well, I'm amazed at the number of folks on this thread that seem to dislike, discount or simply write off the venerable M-16. Granted I've never tried the SAR21 but I have done my time on a number of carbines including the AUG, FAL, H&K and SIG. All these carbines have their pros and cons but not one tend to stand out.
Left to an individual, I'm sure there's a bunch of stuff that he would like to upgrade or change with his carbine to perfect it as much as he can for his needs and when it comes to after market stuff, I don't think you will ever find as many doo-dads for any other carbine other than the M16. But what is it about the M-16 that commands this dissing?
Well, I know a bunch of folks who don't care for the 5.56mm but would like to keep the basic M4 design and function, so out comes new calibers like the 6.8mm for the SOCOM guys BUT the Barrett they shoot is built on the same M4 platform.
What about accuracy? I heard some folks complain that the M16 is inaccurate. Have you seen a match at Camp Perry's? You will be shocked by the number of full size accurized M16s that show up year after year. I don't see any AUGs.
Next, 3-gun matches where you show up competing with a pistol, a shotgun and a rifle. Some of the top shooters in this field including Taran Butler and Mike Voight (president of USPSA) run an M-16 variant from JP Enterprises.
No disrespect guys but the problem here is that many of us have only handled what we were/are issued during NS and have not much actual experience running some of the carbines side by side. We repeat what we read in gun rags and make it appear to be our own personal 'experience'. The more we repeat it, the more it appears to be the 'truth'.
I too was issued (first) an M16A1 and towards the later part, the A2. Both, I'm sure were locally made and have been used and abused by the countless NSmen before me. The fit sucks, the accuracy is questionable, etc, etc, etc. Like you, I couldn't stand the M16 but almost 20 years have passed since I last wore a Guards beret and thanks to the multitudes of changes, aftermarket parts, easy of use (fast mag changes), and the large number of companies who continue to improve and market their own version of the M4 (what we call M4gery), this old warhouse is still the number one pick among folks stateside. Dollar for dollar, pretty hard to beat.
Like the 1911 pistol who has been around for 90 years (in and out of favor but thanks to competition shooters and gunsmiths this design still reigns), the M16 design is still here to stay and perform. From Barrett's 6.8mm to the new FN SCAR battle weapon, the designs are inherently based on the M16.
I personally like the SIG 552 commando but US$15K is waaaay over my pay scale. That said, I ran both the 552 and my $1600 Bushmaster Modular M4 carbine on a tactical course and I still scored better with the Bushy. What is it they say? Practise, practise, practise? And if I continue to do so with my M4, I'll still beat a more experienced shooter who has just been handed an AUG or 552 or G36 for the first time.
Some folks say it's the operator and not the tool. I can't comment on that so I'll leave it up to you
Stay safe and watch your six. -
I am not aware that the SAF uses the M16A2!!!Originally posted by i-SHOT:Well, I'm amazed at the number of folks on this thread that seem to dislike, discount or simply write off the venerable M-16. Granted I've never tried the SAR21 but I have done my time on a number of carbines including the AUG, FAL, H&K and SIG. All these carbines have their pros and cons but not one tend to stand out.
Left to an individual, I'm sure there's a bunch of stuff that he would like to upgrade or change with his carbine to perfect it as much as he can for his needs and when it comes to after market stuff, I don't think you will ever find as many doo-dads for any other carbine other than the M16. But what is it about the M-16 that commands this dissing?
Well, I know a bunch of folks who don't care for the 5.56mm but would like to keep the basic M4 design and function, so out comes new calibers like the 6.8mm for the SOCOM guys BUT the Barrett they shoot is built on the same M4 platform.
What about accuracy? I heard some folks complain that the M16 is inaccurate. Have you seen a match at Camp Perry's? You will be shocked by the number of full size accurized M16s that show up year after year. I don't see any AUGs.
Next, 3-gun matches where you show up competing with a pistol, a shotgun and a rifle. Some of the top shooters in this field including Taran Butler and Mike Voight (president of USPSA) run an M-16 variant from JP Enterprises.
No disrespect guys but the problem here is that many of us have only handled what we were/are issued during NS and have not much actual experience running some of the carbines side by side. We repeat what we read in gun rags and make it appear to be our own personal 'experience'. The more we repeat it, the more it appears to be the 'truth'.
I too was issued (first) an M16A1 and towards the later part, the A2. Both, I'm sure were locally made and have been used and abused by the countless NSmen before me. The fit sucks, the accuracy is questionable, etc, etc, etc. Like you, I couldn't stand the M16 but almost 20 years have passed since I last wore a Guards beret and thanks to the multitudes of changes, aftermarket parts, easy of use (fast mag changes), and the large number of companies who continue to improve and market their own version of the M4 (what we call M4gery), this old warhouse is still the number one pick among folks stateside. Dollar for dollar, pretty hard to beat.
Like the 1911 pistol who has been around for 90 years (in and out of favor but thanks to competition shooters and gunsmiths this design still reigns), the M16 design is still here to stay and perform. From Barrett's 6.8mm to the new FN SCAR battle weapon, the designs are inherently based on the M16.
I personally like the SIG 552 commando but US$15K is waaaay over my pay scale. That said, I ran both the 552 and my $1600 Bushmaster Modular M4 carbine on a tactical course and I still scored better with the Bushy. What is it they say? Practise, practise, practise? And if I continue to do so with my M4, I'll still beat a more experienced shooter who has just been handed an AUG or 552 or G36 for the first time.
Some folks say it's the operator and not the tool. I can't comment on that so I'll leave it up to you
Stay safe and watch your six. -
I had seen the guys in HK before. The ones that I see usually travel in pairs with only one guy with an MP5. The other is only armed with the pistol.Originally posted by tvdog:I fly frequently between Shanghai, Beijing, Hong Kong (less now) and SIngapore.
So I have had chance to see he military and police of all three countries.
Have you guys seen the HK SWAT teams patrolling their airport? They're decked out in blue uniform, black beret and MP5 or just a pistol in SWAT-style leg holster.
They look very "the business". Most of them does some bodybuilding, all meet a certain height requirement and most importantly, they all look mature and confident. There are also some angmos left over from the colonial days still serving.
Our SAF spec ops or police SWAT or SWAT guys look just as impressive.
But those few times I saw our NS or NSF guys at the airport with their SAR-21, man... I must say they didn't look impressive. And they look timid and unsure instead of confident. Mnay, like myself, wore glasses.
In fact, they look like very tempting targets for someone to snatch a weapon if not for the SWAT guys escorting them.
I really think that if anyone was to be scared, it would be the passengers as the NSF guys look like amatuers. And being a NS man myself, I know that we are NOT trained to handle or discharge weapons in an area FILLED with innocent civilians.
In China you basically don't see any armed personnel at the airports.
Mainly because China is not yet on alert for such eventuality. But those paramilitary guys guarding important buildings and installations can range from very friendly to very regimental. Those in Beijing does not hesitate to shout at people whether they are local or foreign. And if you try to take their photos you'll be in for a rude shock.
The most serious airport security guys I had seen is way back in '96 in Heathrow UK. There are a pair of security guys. both with MP5. They walk around in a tactical manner and will look around warily at all times.... I even see one walk into the DFS shop and slowly patrol within the shop, his team mate stood outside and scan the surrondings and then peroidically look in to check on his buddy. This is the era where there are a lot of incidents in europe.
I am not surprised that the NSF guys look unprofessional. At the end of the day, they are just National servicemen with only a few months of training beyond BMT and cannot be compared to full time secuity personnel.
But I think they do have a role to play in having more "warm bodies" to maintain a strong presence. if I am a terrorist, I will be more detered with there are 5 armed guards compared to 2. -
off topic....euro96 in england rite that time?Originally posted by spencer99:I had seen the guys in HK before. The ones that I see usually travel in pairs with only one guy with an MP5. The other is only armed with the pistol.
The most serious airport security guys I had seen is way back in '96 in Heathrow UK. There are a pair of security guys. both with MP5. They walk around in a tactical manner and will look around warily at all times.... I even see one walk into the DFS shop and slowly patrol within the shop, his team mate stood outside and scan the surrondings and then peroidically look in to check on his buddy. This is the era where there are a lot of incidents in europe.
I am not surprised that the NSF guys look unprofessional. At the end of the day, they are just National servicemen with only a few months of training beyond BMT and cannot be compared to full time secuity personnel.
But I think they do have a role to play in having more "warm bodies" to maintain a strong presence. if I am a terrorist, I will be more detered with there are 5 armed guards compared to 2. -
You use the term "carbine" liberally on every weapon you desecribed, including the FAL, which is an excessively long Full Battle Rifle in a large 7.62mm calibre not very suited to "carbine-ing". (This is not to say a short paratroop FAL doesn't exist.)Originally posted by i-SHOT:Granted I've never tried the SAR21 but I have done my time on a number of carbines including the AUG, FAL, H&K and SIG. All these carbines....
I too was issued (first) an M16A1 and towards the later part, the A2. Both, I'm sure were locally made...
No, in Singapore we never had either the M16A1 nor the M16A2. We in Singapore are issued with the M16S1 (M16A1 equivalent) and this is the one and only M16 rifle licensed to be made in Singapore. SAF does issue M16 carbines (Israeli version - mostly made by Colt USA) to tankees and recce troops. I have also come across imported Colt USA-made M16 without the bolt-assist but these are very rare.
And not everyone has dissed the M16. I love the M16. But that's because I've fired, trained, slept, ate meals, laughed and at times, nearly passed out with the M16. I can understand why a lot of people here love the new SAR-21 compared to a 30-year old design. Furthermore, there is also an element of nationalistic pride.
I don't like the idea of bullpup, being an old soldier. But that's just me. -
In 1986 April I flew to England right after the US bombers attacked targets in Libya. In those days, the planes had to stop at Dubai before flying on to London. As we queued up to re-board our plane to London, guards all armed with folding stock AK-47s picked out all the American passport holders and frisked them spread-eagle in front of all the other passengers. I think this was done on purpose to humiliate them.Originally posted by spencer99:The most serious airport security guys I had seen is way back in '96 in Heathrow UK. There are a pair of security guys. both with MP5. They walk around in a tactical manner and will look around warily at all times.... This is the era where there are a lot of incidents in europe.
I am not surprised that the NSF guys look unprofessional. At the end of the day, they are just National servicemen with only a few months of training beyond BMT and cannot be compared to full time secuity personnel.
But I think they do have a role to play in having more "warm bodies" to maintain a strong presence. if I am a terrorist, I will be more detered with there are 5 armed guards compared to 2. -
I do believe that those guys you seen at the airport patrolling are not the HK police SWAT or SDU. They're in fact Airport Security Unit, ASU, their responsibilities are strickly within the airport.Originally posted by tvdog:Have you guys seen the HK SWAT teams patrolling their airport? They're decked out in blue uniform, black beret and MP5 or just a pistol in SWAT-style leg holster.
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tvdog,
Dude, you are absolutely correct. My bad. It was the local variant M16S1 but a couple of us did see the Colt version without the assist. The A2 was what I picked up when I moved stateside.
As for the FAL, it was the DSA-580SW to be more specific, a test weapon the local PD were trying out. More like a mutated version really. Came with folding stock.
Anyway, I am very impressed with the firearm knowledge of a number of folks on this forum including yourself. Thanks very much for the correction. -
Ahhhh...a fellow M-4 or rather, carbine fan!Originally posted by i-SHOT:tvdog,
Dude, you are absolutely correct. My bad. It was the local variant M16S1 but a couple of us did see the Colt version without the assist. The A2 was what I picked up when I moved stateside.
As for the FAL, it was the DSA-580SW to be more specific, a test weapon the local PD were trying out. More like a mutated version really. Came with folding stock.
Anyway, I am very impressed with the firearm knowledge of a number of folks on this forum including yourself. I'd appreciate it if some of you might update me on weapon systems used by our local tactical teams. I plan on opening an office in Singapore within the next 3 months or so and would like to market the right after-market stuff and accessories to these guys. It would help to know what they are running and gunning with.
I'll probably start a new thread asking for advice on this. Thanks. I guess I'm like u and tvdog. I still prefer the conventional layout in rifles. The SAR-21 feels weird to me when I fired it during one of the SAF open house. Then again, its a matter of personal preference.
The SAF carbine that's issued is quite reliable. But of cos', over the years of wear and tear, it is understandable why some of us are unhappy with it. I was reissued with a spanking new carbine after my last one failed the 'barrel test.' Found out from the armourer that the barrel has worn to the point that its wider than 5.56.
When I first fired my new carbine on the range, it was a beauty...the loud crack (as compared to the M-16's 'pop'), and its shorter barrel actually made it easier for me to control my shots. I even collapsed the folding stock, and the result is a very handy weapon that can be very accurate up to 200 metres. It doesn't IA as much as my friends in the infantry companies using M-16, and I suspect that because of the shorter barrel, the gas tube is shorter, and hence, the shorter distance it has to travel to push back the bolt. In subsequent training exercises, I've never had a problem with my carbine, even with blanks. The best part is...I only have to clean it using 4 pieces of a 5 piece rod!! lol
Like what alot of us agree, its a matter of getting used to I guess...but given a choice between my carbine and the SAR-21, I'd still take my carbine, but slap on an Avimo scope...
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Tango1, are these new carbines modular? Do they have the standard 1913 rails on them or is the heat shield / guard a plain one? For years I've been shooting old school style, i.e., weak/support hand (my left since I'm a rightie) pulling back on the mag well. Recently I've discovered that to be a bad idea. If you have a rail on yours and can have one of those forward grips like the Tango Down, a push and pull technique is guaranteed to minimize recoil for quick follow shots.....just like shotgun.
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nope..unfortunately its not equipped with picatinny rails whatsoever. Even the SOF's M-4 carbines (the rest of SAF uses the regular old carbine) have carrying handles (M-4 A1). I'm a conventional rightie, so I used to shoot in standing position like how us described it; my weak hand gripping the mag well...ditto for kneeling positions.Originally posted by i-SHOT:Tango1, are these new carbines modular? Do they have the standard 1913 rails on them or is the heat shield / guard a plain one? For years I've been shooting old school style, i.e., weak/support hand (my left since I'm a rightie) pulling back on the mag well. Recently I've discovered that to be a bad idea. If you have a rail on yours and can have one of those forward grips like the Tango Down, a push and pull technique is guaranteed to minimize recoil for quick follow shots.....just like shotgun.
I guess its a case of physique and preference, but I found out that if I crouch really low (kneeling) or even just pulling back and tucking in my arms and elbows to the side (kinda like reading a book in a moving vehicle), u can minimize recoil and still make relatively accurate shots. of cos' with the grip handle, ur kicking already.... -
nope..unfortunately its not equipped with picatinny rails whatsoever. Even the SOF's M-4 carbines (the rest of SAF uses the regular old carbine) have carrying handles (M-4 A1). I'm a conventional rightie, so I used to shoot in standing position like how us described it; my weak hand gripping the mag well...ditto for kneeling positions.
Roger that, Tango. I hear you about the M4s. It would be nice if you guys are given the choice of personal upgrades to fit your needs. That's the one good thing about being in the US military. You are issued the standards but if you wanna upgrade or add-on, you can do so at your leisure (and your own expense). Weapon changes, however, require permission. I know a bunch of Marines who brought their Glocks (aka Combat Tupperware) over with them instead of their issued Berettas (they call them Barfettas).
I guess its a case of physique and preference, but I found out that if I crouch really low (kneeling) or even just pulling back and tucking in my arms and elbows to the side (kinda like reading a book in a moving vehicle), u can minimize recoil and still make relatively accurate shots. of cos' with the grip handle, ur kicking already.... Mr. Green -
Just wondering what is the rifling twist of the SAR-21 being issued, 1:12" or 1:7"?
The barrel length of the carbine version of the SAR-21 is _____ ?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
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Just wondering what is the rifling twist of the SAR-21 being issued, 1:12" or 1:7"?
Raptor, the rifling twist for the SAR-21 is based on the tyep of ammo that is expected to be used with it. If using standard M193 ammo, I think it's supposed to be the 1:12" twist while the latter is for SS109 ammo.
The barrel length of the carbine version of the SAR-21 is _____ ?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I think the carbine still holds a 20" barrel. -
Is there a 1:9 rifling? Suppose to be a sort of compromise for the 2 5.56mm round types.Originally posted by Raptor937:Just wondering what is the rifling twist of the SAR-21 being issued, 1:12" or 1:7"?
The barrel length of the carbine version of the SAR-21 is _____ ?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks -
Well that's the question is the SAF still using the 1:12" twist of the old M16S1 (the S1 uses 1:12" twist rite?) and still using the 55gr M193 for the SAR-21Originally posted by i-SHOT:Raptor, the rifling twist for the SAR-21 is based on the tyep of ammo that is expected to be used with it. If using standard M193 ammo, I think it's supposed to be the 1:12" twist while the latter is for SS109 ammo.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I think the carbine still holds a 20" barrel.
Or they switched to the 62gr M855 so the also changed the rifling to the 1:7" for the SAR-21 being issued.
So it kinda boils down to whether the SAF is using the M193 or the M855 eh
Or they issue 2 different barrels for soldiers, one in 1:12" and another in 1:7"
Any way for the carbine I heard that it was closer to 15.1" barrel can someone comfirm this. -
I never paid much attention to the SAR-21 but after you guys started this thread, I decided to do some research on it. I still wouldn't get a chance to try one out but the word on the Net (it would appear) is in good favour of the SAR-21. I've read some very positive reviews of it
That said, there is something about the design of a bullpup that I find difficult to deal with and my pet peeve is reloading. Some of you guys might find this rather funny but one of the best ways to make any decision on weapon choices is to watch the competition pros run their rifles. One stands to pick up on many ideas and most of these ideas flow back into the units and eventually into the war fronts.
Keeping your rifle running is an example. I know this is hard for some of us to picture due to the non-issue of sidearms (other than the SOF and such) in the SAF but when you watch dynamic pistol matches, you will notice that the basic reloading technique is all the same, pull pistol in, tilt, retrieve fresh mag from pouch (on the waist) while releasing the empty one. Fastest way from A to B is a straight line so the angle of tilt is such that the mag well points directly in the direction where the new mag is being retrieved. In it goes, release slide lock with support hand and back to the business at hand.
The same goes for most rifle shooters except that (depending on LE or military), our pouches / mag holders are either (still) on the waist or on a thigh rig. With the basic M16 platform and such, the reloading technique is the still the same. The idea is for you to keep drawing your fresh mags from around the same area. Of course, there are several aftermarket accessories that can help quicken the first mag changes like the Mag Cinch, the Red-Mag, etc but once that is depleted, it's back to retrieving again.
Some folks call it muscle memory (there is no such thing as muscle memory; just a phrase) and I have seen it time and time again when some uniform guys show up at our range for a tactical 3-gun match wearing a vest that holds all their mags. When it comes time to reload, a bunch of them find their support hands going down to their waist or thighs instead of their vest and realized their mistake a second or two later.
This old / standard / whatever-you-wanna-call-it syle of reloading is pretty much ingrained among shooters and operators stateside and it works better on the current rifles then the bullpup designs. Change the rifle design and with it comes re-training.
Just my 2 cents guys. -
The rifle without the forward assist is known here still as the AR-15.My unit has loads of these.Sadly speaking, the usage of Picatinny rails in the SAF is way below the rate in the US Army, where I suppose practically every M16 or Colt/Knight Armament derivative has it attached.Originally posted by i-SHOT:tvdog,
Dude, you are absolutely correct. My bad. It was the local variant M16S1 but a couple of us did see the Colt version without the assist. The A2 was what I picked up when I moved stateside.
As for the FAL, it was the DSA-580SW to be more specific, a test weapon the local PD were trying out. More like a mutated version really. Came with folding stock.
Anyway, I am very impressed with the firearm knowledge of a number of folks on this forum including yourself. Thanks very much for the correction.
Oh well, you would have made a very good Armament Specialist.But then again, being Stateside beats serving in the SAF. -
Please don't give any wild visions to the S'pore soldiers that the American military is made up of cowboys who disobey standing orders to carry their own personal side arms. The MARINEs that brought their own Glocks had the permission from their CO when a study by a MARINE Lt found that the M9 was not suitable for MARINEs fighting in Iraq.Originally posted by i-SHOT:Roger that, Tango. I hear you about the M4s. It would be nice if you guys are given the choice of personal upgrades to fit your needs. That's the one good thing about being in the US military. You are issued the standards but if you wanna upgrade or add-on, you can do so at your leisure (and your own expense). Weapon changes, however, require permission. I know a bunch of Marines who brought their Glocks (aka Combat Tupperware) over with them instead of their issued Berettas (they call them Barfettas).
Its good you've highlighted that changes to U.S military issued weapons requires permission. Of course, this ruling does not enforce on Green Berets, D-boys & SEALs as they've valid reasons for mutating their weapons. -
Some semblance of sanity arrives.I'm very curious.I suppose you must have served in the United States Army before?Originally posted by John Ching:Please don't give any wild visions to the S'pore soldiers that the American military is made up of cowboys who disobey standing orders to carry their own personal side arms. The MARINEs that brought their own Glocks had the permission from their CO when a study by a MARINE Lt found that the M9 was not suitable for MARINEs fighting in Iraq.
Its good you've highlighted that changes to U.S military issued weapons requires permission. Of course, this ruling does not enforce on Green Berets, D-boys & SEALs as they've valid reasons for mutating their weapons. -
6.8 was design with the current issued M4 rifling in mind & not vis versa, so I don't think the SAR-21 rifling would've any problem as long as they continue to used only ammos certified by NATO.Originally posted by i-SHOT:Raptor, the rifling twist for the SAR-21 is based on the tyep of ammo that is expected to be used with it. If using standard M193 ammo, I think it's supposed to be the 1:12" twist while the latter is for SS109 ammo.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I think the carbine still holds a 20" barrel.
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1st off, civilian shooting & reloading cannot be compared to actual war shooting & reloading. Its has been pointed out, that the current NRA requirement for competitors reloading style is rubbish, by SWAT operators & military shooters. But house rules are usually followed as its a civilian control activity.Originally posted by i-SHOT:Keeping your rifle running is an example. I know this is hard for some of us to picture due to the non-issue of sidearms (other than the SOF and such) in the SAF but when you watch dynamic pistol matches, you will notice that the basic reloading technique is all the same, pull pistol in, tilt, retrieve fresh mag from pouch (on the waist) while releasing the empty one. Fastest way from A to B is a straight line so the angle of tilt is such that the mag well points directly in the direction where the new mag is being retrieved. In it goes, release slide lock with support hand and back to the business at hand.
I have seen it time and time again when some uniform guys show up at our range for a tactical 3-gun match wearing a vest that holds all their mags. When it comes time to reload, a bunch of them find their support hands going down to their waist or thighs instead of their vest and realized their mistake a second or two later.
This old / standard / whatever-you-wanna-call-it syle of reloading is pretty much ingrained among shooters and operators stateside and it works better on the current rifles then the bullpup designs. Change the rifle design and with it comes re-training.
Just my 2 cents guys.
2nd, the uniform guys that you've seen with their vest problems are either non-shooters in the military or ...........! The U.S military do not issue items to soldier without ensuring that they know how to adapt to the changes.
3rd, soldiers are not dogs & therefore are able to adapt to changes irregardless of what it maybe. Be it, rifle, uniform, shooting style, coms, etc. -
Its bad enough that the world views Bush as a cowboy, even though he is from Texas, its worst if the world view every American soldier as a cowboy.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Some semblance of sanity arrives.I'm very curious.I suppose you must have served in the United States Army before?
And to highlight the point, an Italian journalist who was recently involved in an regretable shooting incident in Iraq is already screaming to the media that American soldiers involve in the shooting were acting like cowboys & that the U.S military was out to kill her even though theres nothing to gain from her death but rather everything to loose.
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Well, the sad thing is that the reputation of the United States Army being tarnished is not helped too, by unfortunate incidents such as this.But I have heard of equally valiant stories of the men and women of your army that never make it to the front page.