SAR-21 - Like or Don't like?
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Please don't give any wild visions to the S'pore soldiers that the American military is made up of cowboys who disobey standing orders to carry their own personal side arms. The MARINEs that brought their own Glocks had the permission from their CO when a study by a MARINE Lt found that the M9 was not suitable for MARINEs fighting in Iraq.
John, like I mentioned, permission is required to do so. And if you DO get permission and bring your own, chances of you bringing them back is close to zero. The Glocks get sold to other incoming grunts.
Its good you've highlighted that changes to U.S military issued weapons requires permission. Of course, this ruling does not enforce on Green Berets, D-boys & SEALs as they've valid reasons for mutating their weapons.
Some may think of them as Cowboys but I don't and that is not the impression I hope to portray of them. If I did then I apologize becos' that was never my intention. The Marines have my absolute respect and I personally hold them higher on the mantel that any other units out there.
My knowledge of this is personal from the point of view that I was there when some who re-enlisted (my close friends) purchased Glocks after they were told that they could bring their own. I spent at least one day a week at Quantico (the base) and at Quantico Arms (the base store) shooting the breeze with these guys. Before they re-enlisted I hosted classes for them with former Marine spec ops guys like Patrick Goodale so that they stay efficient with their new Glocks and such.
As for the SOCOM guys, well, like you said, they have their own reasons
The rifle without the forward assist is known here still as the AR-15.My unit has loads of these.Sadly speaking, the usage of Picatinny rails in the SAF is way below the rate in the US Army, where I suppose practically every M16 or Colt/Knight Armament derivative has it attached.
Lazer, I'm a far cry from being a Specialist of that sort. I learn as much as I can on the field, range and matches more than what I read from gun rags. I have so much of it laying around but I can't find the time to read 'em all. On average, I shoot every other day and dry fire almost every evening. 30,000 pistol rounds a year is about average and I still lack behind some of my guys who shoot upwards of 45,000. That doesn't include the 5.56 ammo and the shotgun (my personal favourite) slugs and buckshots. I take every opportunity I get to stop and ask the guys I meet about the stuff that they run and gun with.
Oh well, you would have made a very good Armament Specialist.But then again, being Stateside beats serving in the SAF.
Not everything you see needs to be fancy. For example, fighting at night is a doctrine we take seriously and I'm sure you guys do the same and as such, a light on your rifle is an important consideration. For the AR15 you have, you do not need a mount of any sort. All you need is to purchased some velcro. Apply enough velcro loop to cover half the diameter of your light and and a longer length of the hoop side to wrap around both the light and your handguard.
Even simpler ( what I originally did with my shotgun).....ducktape the damn light. Slightly fancier, use 1" or 1.5" nylon webbing, fastex buckles and velcro. Easy on, easy off, requires no mods to the rifle and doesn't damage the handguard too. I have cut and sewn dozens of slings and such from the Beretta Store to the M4 and find a lot of easy ways to get certain things done.
Anyway, I hope to put all this knowledge to some good use back in Singapore sometime soon. First the GSA expo at the end of this month and then we'll work on getting an office up and running.
Please feel to email me should you need any other such ideas. I'll be more than happy to help.6.8 was design with the current issued M4 rifling in mind & not vis versa, so I don't think the SAR-21 rifling would've any problem as long as they continue to used only ammos certified by NATO.
code:
Thanks, John
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Originally posted by i-SHOT:
Well, that sort of firing experience is much more than what the majority might fire in a year.I agree with what you've said about taping the rails and stuff.However, sadly, only the elite units might get to customise their stuff, though not very much.You would need a CRF or ADF guy to confirm this.Perhaps the next defence expo, you could showcase your stuff, or maybe do some joint venture with the SAFSA pistol/air rifle team.Or even provide professional coaching for pre-SAFISAM meets.
Lazer, I'm a far cry from being a Specialist of that sort. I learn as much as I can on the field, range and matches more than what I read from gun rags. I have so much of it laying around but I can't find the time to read 'em all. On average, I shoot every other day and dry fire almost every evening. 30,000 pistol rounds a year is about average and I still lack behind some of my guys who shoot upwards of 45,000. That doesn't include the 5.56 ammo and the shotgun (my personal favourite) slugs and buckshots. I take every opportunity I get to stop and ask the guys I meet about the stuff that they run and gun with. -
Unfortunately, politics seems to rule in this war. Bad events out weights the good.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Well, the sad thing is that the reputation of the United States Army being tarnished is not helped too, by unfortunate incidents such as this.But I have heard of equally valiant stories of the men and women of your army that never make it to the front page.
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I do go to Militaryphotos.net.There are a lot of stories bout men and women in Ops Iraqi Freedom which never make it to the mainstream press(read Fox News).Originally posted by John Ching:Unfortunately, politics seems to rule in this war. Bad events out weights the good. -
True....how very trueOriginally posted by John Ching:Unfortunately, politics seems to rule in this war. Bad events out weights the good. -
You're probably one of the very few who do note the positive side of American soldiers in Iraq & Astan. However, negative events still outweight the rest. Folks back home told me that there are still anti-war groups using the negative events as a political cause to get Mr Rumfield out of office. Their views is that if they can get him out of office, then they'll be able to get Bush out of office before his 2nd term is up. However, these groups fail to recognise the chaos that would follow if they do succeed. But thats another story.Originally posted by LazerLordz:I do go to Militaryphotos.net.There are a lot of stories bout men and women in Ops Iraqi Freedom which never make it to the mainstream press(read Fox News).
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Back to the topic at hand, now as I've already stated I don't serve in the Singapore military & therefore have no stake in the weapon being debated.
However, I'm shock to see that Singaporeans are not supportive of their own local designs or creations & I'm not only talking about the SAR-21.
Staying here for only the last 13+ months & knowing the few Singaporean friends I have, I get the vibs that Singaporean are always condaming their own made products not just among themselves but with the rest of the world. Now its wrong of me to say this but I'm guessing that one of the reasons why Singapore was unable to sell its military made armour troop carrier to the U.S military was because of the bad rumours that was spread all over through word of mouth, internet, etc.
If you think what I'm saying have no grounds for it, check other guns or military forums especially those with foreign parties. Singaporeans are already condaming their SAR-21 through the internet. They even contridicted an author of an article on the SAR-21 being a better bullpup design.
One of the reason why the world view Americans as being proud is the fact that we are very pround of our own products even though behind closed door its a different story. An American person would always said that life would be good if he could sit back with an American beer in 1 hand, an American woman in the other, watching an American football game on an American television with an American car parked outside of his American home. The truth is that the American person who said it don't usually mean it. He only says it as his own small way of showing his pride for being an American & patriotism.
So, its true that the SAR 21 may have its faults but does it warrant to be condamn? Isn't the designer of the SAR 21 a Singaporean? Doesn't the designer of the weapon deserve encouragement to design a better weapon in future? Where is the Singapore National pride? While its true that a soldier, of whatever nationality, going to war should be given the best weapon & gear to fight, isn't the soldier still a representivie of his own country?
Now I can understand a Singaporean soldier being unhappy about the gear he wears to war, the same problem goes with the American soldiers. But the American soldier still carries his American made rifle, M4, to war with pride even if he's not wearing all American gear.
What about the Singaporean soldier? -
a) What do you like about the M-16?
Simple, easy to use, accurate. Light...i could go on and on!
b) What do you dislike about the M-16?
Could be shorter....
c) What do you like about the SAR-21?
Hadn't got the chance to use it or even see it but from the reports, i am getting the impression that its can be fixed up with plenty of gear...
Shorter weapon also good.
d) What do you dislike about the SAR-21?
This weapon is bullshit for lefthanders. Had the idea of bullpup style loading of magazine.
e) Do you guys think the SAR-21 is the best relacement for the M-16?
No it isn't.
f) Or do you think there is anothher weapon that is a better replacement for the M-16?
Yes. The HK.
g) Or do you think we should stick with the M-16?
Not sure. -
It's a very complex thing regarding how much pride one has in being Singaporean.You have to see how the state and national loyalty has been co-opted by the PAP as a mechanism to ensure political loyalty.The average man-in-the-street will not think so deeply as to seperate state and party.One aspect that contributes to this diaspora between the hidden pride for one's country is the existence of NS , which has put most males here in some sort of disadvantage.It's not a very simple issue to understand.Singapore has been emasculated by the PAP since 1959, and the success they have brought us has been overshadowed by the way they conduct themselves.Originally posted by John Ching:Back to the topic at hand, now as I've already stated I don't serve in the Singapore military & therefore have no stake in the weapon being debated.
However, I'm shock to see that Singaporeans are not supportive of their own local designs or creations & I'm not only talking about the SAR-21.
Staying here for only the last 13+ months & knowing the few Singaporean friends I have, I get the vibs that Singaporean are always condaming their own made products not just among themselves but with the rest of the world. Now its wrong of me to say this but I'm guessing that one of the reasons why Singapore was unable to sell its military made armour troop carrier to the U.S military was because of the bad rumours that was spread all over through word of mouth, internet, etc.
If you think what I'm saying have no grounds for it, check other guns or military forums especially those with foreign parties. Singaporeans are already condaming their SAR-21 through the internet. They even contridicted an author of an article on the SAR-21 being a better bullpup design.
One of the reason why the world view Americans as being proud is the fact that we are very pround of our own products even though behind closed door its a different story. An American person would always said that life would be good if he could sit back with an American beer in 1 hand, an American woman in the other, watching an American football game on an American television with an American car parked outside of his American home. The truth is that the American person who said it don't usually mean it. He only says it as his own small way of showing his pride for being an American & patriotism.
So, its true that the SAR 21 may have its faults but does it warrant to be condamn? Isn't the designer of the SAR 21 a Singaporean? Doesn't the designer of the weapon deserve encouragement to design a better weapon in future? Where is the Singapore National pride? While its true that a soldier, of whatever nationality, going to war should be given the best weapon & gear to fight, isn't the soldier still a representivie of his own country?
Now I can understand a Singaporean soldier being unhappy about the gear he wears to war, the same problem goes with the American soldiers. But the American soldier still carries his American made rifle, M4, to war with pride even if he's not wearing all American gear.
What about the Singaporean soldier?
Take a look around.In fact, I'm proud of our Bionix and SAR 21, just that my skeptical mind goes into overdrive because we have been fooled many times by those that run our nation, whom we are often told half-truths and slick spin. -
One suggestion of removing the doubts in the weapon is to hold a high profile torture test for the SAR-21. Feature it in the Straits Times, Janes, American gun magazines etc.
Torture test:
Get like 10,000 or more rounds of ammunition. Fire all rounds through the rifle. Dunk it in water if it gets too hot. Once it stops steaming load it up and start all over again. Repeat till ammunition all used up. Throw it in mud, sand etc. load it up and fire it.
Take note of the accuracy. Number of jams etc.
Expensive but this will impress the locals giving them confidence in the rifle and impress potential foreign buyers.
But if it doesn't fair well in the test... well you can guess the out come. All the people mentioned above will be saying the rifle isn't as good as it was said to out to be.
And heard that the SAR-21 didn't fair well in snow trials. -
Well, neither did the Tavor.After all, each rifle is made by the respective companies for their own domestic market's priority.So they will make it to suit their own climate first.Originally posted by Raptor937:One suggestion of removing the doubts in the weapon is to hold a high profile torture test for the SAR-21. Feature it in the Straits Times, Janes, American gun magazines etc.
Torture test:
Get like 10,000 or more rounds of ammunition. Fire all rounds through the rifle. Dunk it in water if it gets too hot. Once it stops steaming load it up and start all over again. Repeat till ammunition all used up. Throw it in mud, sand etc. load it up and fire it.
Take note of the accuracy. Number of jams etc.
Expensive but this will impress the locals giving them confidence in the rifle and impress potential foreign buyers.
But if it doesn't fair well in the test... well you can guess the out come. All the people mentioned above will be saying the rifle isn't as good as it was said to out to be.
And heard that the SAR-21 didn't fair well in snow trials. -
Not to digress but I have read nothing but rather positive reviews of the SAR-21. Here are a couple of them:
http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=435
http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/idr/idr000531_2_n.shtml -
First of all, to i-Shot, don't believe everything you read, including what Jane's Defence writes. Don't forget that the writer probably spent like 20 minutes with the weapon at a nice comfortable rrange as compared to a SAF soldier who practically lived with it in the field. Plus the SAF soldier putting his comments here isn't being paid to say nice or bad things about the weapon he is using. So there is more honesty here.Originally posted by John Ching:...
However, I'm shock to see that Singaporeans are not supportive of their own local designs or creations & I'm not only talking about the SAR-21.
...
I get the vibs that Singaporean are always condaming their own made products not just among themselves but with the rest of the world.
Now its wrong of me to say this but I'm guessing that one of the reasons why Singapore was unable to sell its military made armour troop carrier to the U.S military was because of the bad rumours that was spread all over through word of mouth, internet, etc.
One of the reason why the world view Americans as being proud is the fact that we are very pround of our own products even though behind closed door its a different story.
... But the American soldier still carries his American made rifle, M4, to war with pride even if he's not wearing all American gear.
What about the Singaporean soldier?
And then to John Ching "national pride". That is just so much preaching... I'm sorry. Americans proud of their weapons? Then why are they readily using AKs in Iraq? That's just one example. But I'm not here to talk about Americans.
The Brits surely had enough of "national pride" when the MOD fobbed the SA-80 on them. The weapon was bad, and is still less than ideal after a VERY VERY expensive upgrade.
In Singapore, the armed forces actually listens to its soldiers. The locally-made SAR-80 and SR-88 NEVER got adopted cos SAF soldiers tested it and didn't like it. So maybe National Pride caused the US to be stuck with the M-16 for more than 30 years (a record) and other crap weapons like the M-60 GPMG but in Singapore, we are a bit more open.
So tha fact that the SAR-21 is being adopted speaks volumes for it. As is the Bionix and Ultimax. In fact, it must be this "national pride" the Americans have that stopped them from considering these 2 fine weapons offered to them.
If our SAF soldiers have bad things to say about any weapon system, they should do so LOUD and CLEAR and not give a hoot about how it affect overseas sales. Oversea sales take a very very backseat to the fighting ability of our armed forces.
Now, personally, I am NOT condemning the SAR-21 nor is anyone here. They are merely pointing out some of the shortcomings and this is one good way the engineers at ST can get first hand opinions on how to make their product better.
What I don't like about the SAR-21 for example, don't even need a field trial to prove. I don't like the fact that it is a bullpup as loading mags is slow. I don't like the fact that there isn't a good set of iron sights in case the optical one is broken or fogged up. I don't like the fact that there isn't a bayonet lug. You can tell people not to use the bayonet but to make it IMPOSSIBLE for people to use a bayonet shows a distinct lack of foresight. Are we supposed to just surrender once we run out of ammo or are they going to issue swords in future? -
Right on man...I guess I'm old-fashioned, but I too would still prefer a weapon with a bayonet lug on it. I think the SAR-21 can be modified to mount a bayonet. But something like the SA-80 bayonet...a plug bayonet...I think that's possible. And the bayonet can be made from really tough plastics (polymer or something?) and/or teflon as well. I know the weapon is short becos' of its bullpup design, but nevertheless, the basic doctrine of infantry combat remains quintessential; to close in and engage...so I believe a bayonet would be a necessity, especially in FOFO...
I guess some of us have read the article where some Brit troops actually charged at a bunch of insurgents with fixed bayonets on their SA-80s. Its more psychological that anything else, but I believe that rushing a position with fixed bayonets shows the soldiers' resolve to meet the enemy face-to-face...where the metal really meet the meat... -
Guessed the insurgents never expected that.I read about this incident before.The Black Watch Regiment, if I'm not wrong.Brave guys.Originally posted by Tango1:Right on man...I guess I'm old-fashioned, but I too would still prefer a weapon with a bayonet lug on it. I think the SAR-21 can be modified to mount a bayonet. But something like the SA-80 bayonet...a plug bayonet...I think that's possible. And the bayonet can be made from really tough plastics (polymer or something?) and/or teflon as well. I know the weapon is short becos' of its bullpup design, but nevertheless, the basic doctrine of infantry combat remains quintessential; to close in and engage...so I believe a bayonet would be a necessity, especially in FOFO...
I guess some of us have read the article where some Brit troops actually charged at a bunch of insurgents with fixed bayonets on their SA-80s. Its more psychological that anything else, but I believe that rushing a position with fixed bayonets shows the soldiers' resolve to meet the enemy face-to-face...where the metal really meet the meat... -
First of all, to i-Shot, don't believe everything you read, including what Jane's Defence writes. Don't forget that the writer probably spent like 20 minutes with the weapon at a nice comfortable rrange as compared to a SAF soldier who practically lived with it in the field. Plus the SAF soldier putting his comments here isn't being paid to say nice or bad things about the weapon he is using. So there is more honesty here.
TVDog, I understand what you're saying but whether you like it or not, if a weapon is sh-tty to begin with, no writer is gonna be daffy enough to say positive things about it and put his/her name on the line when they know for a fact that the next writer might say something completely opposite.
Both reviews were decent and that's good enough of a start for consideration. Field trials are the next step, of course, and I'm sure that's when the honesty of having to live/train with the rifle for a specific period will shed a different light.
On a separate note, there are some folks who will do a review and you can take it to the grave for what's written. An example, the folks at SWAT Magazine. If Patrick Rogers or Denny Hansen or Louis Awerbuck says it's worth a damn, then it's worth a damn. There are times when you can believe what you are reading. And trust me, when they test something, it ain't on any cushy range; an H.I.T.T. course at Gunsite at the very least. That attitude for no BS comes straight from the top, the publisher, Rich Lucibella. -
In response to your 1st sentence, 1st para, Whoa! I guess it means I'm becoming more of a Sinaporean huh? I'll learn to whine the next time.Originally posted by tvdog:And then to John Ching "national pride". That is just so much preaching... I'm sorry. Americans proud of their weapons? Then why are they readily using AKs in Iraq? That's just one example. But I'm not here to talk about Americans.
The Brits surely had enough of "national pride" when the MOD fobbed the SA-80 on them.
In Singapore, the armed forces actually listens to its soldiers.
So tha fact that the SAR-21 is being adopted speaks volumes for it. As is the Bionix and Ultimax. In fact, it must be this "national pride" the Americans have that stopped them from considering these 2 fine weapons offered to them.
If our SAF soldiers have bad things to say about any weapon system, they should do so LOUD and CLEAR and not give a hoot about how it affect overseas sales. Oversea sales take a very very backseat to the fighting ability of our armed forces.
Now, personally, I am NOT condemning the SAR-21 nor is anyone here. They are merely pointing out some of the shortcomings and this is one good way the engineers at ST can get first hand opinions on how to make their product better.
What I don't like about the SAR-21 for example, don't even need a field trial to prove. I don't like the fact that it is a bullpup as loading mags is slow. I don't like the fact that there isn't a good set of iron sights in case the optical one is broken or fogged up. I don't like the fact that there isn't a bayonet lug. You can tell people not to use the bayonet but to make it IMPOSSIBLE for people to use a bayonet shows a distinct lack of foresight. Are we supposed to just surrender once we run out of ammo or are they going to issue swords in future?
As for Americans soldier using AKs, not all of them are using it despite the number of pictures you might have seen. Yes, I did say American troops are proud to carry their M4s into war but I never said they love it & they sure as hell didn't go around condamning it either.
You don't want to talk about Americans but you put the spot on the Brits?
Which army in the world ever listens to the soldier doing the fighting? Maybe only if your a Colonel & above.
By the way the M60 is a fine weapon especially the later models, M240. Have you ever fired one?
I'm not sure about the deal on the Bionix but the Ultimax lost out to the M249 SAW during its trail test.
Say all you want to say but don't condamn the weapon till the point where no other soldier is willing to pick it up & use.
You may not see the significants in the sale of your own produce weapon but if you study it abit more, sales of your weapon actually helps to lessen the burdern of your defence spending to produce the weapon for your army. It also means that the tax dollars can be used for other thinge require by the military.
Pointing out the faults of a weapon is ok if your not being prejudice. Have you read some of the things you've written about the weapon?
Fair enough you've stated what YOU don't like about the weapon & the fact that it hasn't been field proven. But I believed that there were some test done by the Jane's magazine & some other guns authors, you've even trash their views. What test are you expecting it to go through beside war?
I'm sure you've heard of Gurhkas soldiers and how they would use their blade if they've run out of ammos. So your bayonet is unable to attached to your weapon but does that mean you can't fight on with your bayonet in hand? Which would be a worse, to still have a bayonet in hand or to fight with your fist? -
What you've said is truely fair & nutural. I'll add that most reviewer do refrain from totally condamning a weapon as long as its safe for a user to shoot with. Besides what more can a reviewer do to justify that a weapon is good other then actually going to war with it?Originally posted by i-SHOT:TVDog, I understand what you're saying but whether you like it or not, if a weapon is sh-tty to begin with, no writer is gonna be daffy enough to say positive things about it and put his/her name on the line when they know for a fact that the next writer might say something completely opposite.
Both reviews were decent and that's good enough of a start for consideration. Field trials are the next step, of course, and I'm sure that's when the honesty of having to live/train with the rifle for a specific period will shed a different light.
On a separate note, there are some folks who will do a review and you can take it to the grave for what's written. An example, the folks at SWAT Magazine. If Patrick Rogers or Denny Hansen or Louis Awerbuck says it's worth a damn, then it's worth a damn. There are times when you can believe what you are reading. And trust me, when they test something, it ain't on any cushy range; an H.I.T.T. course at Gunsite at the very least. That attitude for no BS comes straight from the top, the publisher, Rich Lucibella.
Of course, currently in Astan & Iraq there are some weapons being tested under combat situation. But they are tested by Special Forces operators & not the usual soldier who would eventually have to use the weapon also. -
Originally posted by John Ching:By the way the M60 is a fine weapon especially the later models, M240. Have you ever fired one?
The M240 and the M60 are 2 completely different weapons. The M240 is a excellent Belgian-made GPMG known elsewhere and in Singapore as the FN MAG. The M240 is a conversion of the FN MAG to US-specs. The M60 was, is and remains a piece of crap. I have fired a tripod-mounted FN MAG, have you? You can't even tell one from the other so maybe you should refrain from further such challenges. I served in the infantry over a period close to ten years.
You may not see the significants in the sale of your own produce weapon but if you study it abit more, sales of your weapon actually helps to lessen the burdern of your defence spending to produce the weapon for your army. It also means that the tax dollars can be used for other thinge require by the military.
I, and a lot of other Singaporeans, am extremely uncomfortable with the fact that my country is one of the major arms exporters in Asia but yet the government strive hard to hide this fact from Singaporeans. Sure I am very proud of the fact that we make some really spiffy weapons but selling them to countries like with horrible, horrible human rights abuses records like Burma, Indonesia, Cambodia and certain East European countries - um... that really sucks.
We've shipped entire arms factories to Burma. I have a picture of a Croatian National Guardsman with an Ultimax. We also sold Ultimax to Indonesia and Philippines. We sold SAR-80, I think to Bosnia. I can't verify this but someone once told me that we are one of the big landmines exporter in the world. A lot of these countries regularly turn these weapons onto civilian popupation, and you know landmines continue to kill and maim indiscriminately years after the war is over. Even though Singaporeans don't go to war and shoot people but we are equally guilty cos our country supplies arms so others can do the killing. Should Singapore continue to export arms - and keep it a secret from Singaporeans? The answer is a firm "NO".
There are other ways to make money.
Pointing out the faults of a weapon is ok if your not being prejudice. Have you read some of the things you've written about the weapon?
What did I say about the SAR-21 that sounded like condemnation to you? I pointed out its shortcomings. I did not say it was a piece of crap. I did not say that it cannot be depended upon.
Fair enough you've stated what YOU don't like about the weapon & the fact that it hasn't been field proven. But I believed that there were some test done by the Jane's magazine & some other guns authors, you've even trash their views. What test are you expecting it to go through beside war?
I didn't say that the SAR-21 is unproven. I said the magazine writers didn't field test the weapons themselves and mostly wrote what's printed on the sales brochure. Where did Jane's test the weapon? For how long did they test it and what were the tests exactly? WHERE did you get the impression I am condemning the SAR-21? The world isn't Black or White. I don't HATE or LOVE the SAR-21, but I definitely think the engineers missed out on a few important things.
In fact, I said in my last post that the fact that the SAF adopted the SAR-21 after rejecting the SAR-80 and SR-88 is testimony to the quality of the SAR-21. It is also testimony to the fact that SAF LISTENS to its soldiers who field tests the weapons. I know because a friend of mine was INVOLVED in the SAR-80 trials back in the 80's. The heavy weight was the main complaint.
I'm sure you've heard of Gurhkas soldiers and how they would use their blade if they've run out of ammos. So your bayonet is unable to attached to your weapon but does that mean you can't fight on with your bayonet in hand? Which would be a worse, to still have a bayonet in hand or to fight with your fist?
Um... Of course you can fight with a bayonet in your hand. I can stab someone in the eye with a toothpick given the opportunity... but what's your point? Why can't we have a bayonet lug on the SAR-21? Why can't I make strong protest so that the people at ST will put a bayonet lug back onto the SAR-21? Will a bayonet lug affect the performance of the SAR-21? Why are you so adamant that we should not criticise a product so that it becomes better? -
Well, SAR-21 can compete in this to settle this long standing debate of whether it is good enough...
Army opens competition for replacement of M-16, M-4
Future of the XM-8 program now depends on the outcome
By Matthew Cox
Times staff writer
The Army will hold an open competition among arms makers to select a replacement for its M-16 rifles and M-4 carbines.
The March 4 pre-solicitation notice, posted on the Internet, means the ArmyÂ’s XM-8 program will have to prove it can outperform the rest of the small-arms industry before soldiers carry it into battle.
Army weapons experts have been working on the Heckler & Koch-made XM-8 prototype as an unopposed replacement since late 2003. It was part of a longer-range effort to perfect an over-and-under style weapon, known as the Objective Individual Combat Weapon or XM-29, developed by Alliant Techsystems and Heckler & Koch.
The XM-29 fires special air-bursting projectiles and standard 5.56mm ammunition. But at 18 pounds, itÂ’s still too heavy to meet requirements, so Army planners decided to perfect each of XM-29Â’s components separately, allowing soldiers to take advantage of new technology sooner.
The XM-8 is one of those components. It features a compact model for close quarters, a standard carbine and a designated marksman/squad automatic rifle model with a longer, heavier barrel and bipod legs for stability.
The March 4 “Pre-solicitation Notice for the Objective Individual Combat Weapon Increment I family of weapons,” invites small-arms makers to try and meet an Army requirement for a “non developmental family of weapons that are capable of firing U.S. standard M855 and M856” 5.56mm ammunition.
The family would consist of carbine, compact, designated marksman and light machinegun models.
A formal Request for Proposal is slated to be issued “on or about” March 23, the notice states.
The OICW Increment I is intended to replace current weapon systems, including the M-4, M-16, M-249 squad automatic weapon and selected M-9 pistols for the active Army, the notice states.
Interested companies will be required to submit four of each type of the four different variants by late spring.
Submissions will be put through a series of tests, including live-fire exercises, to see if they meet the requirement.
The winning company will be awarded a low-rate initial production contract to produce up to 4,900 weapons systems and could receive a full-rate production contract to make more than 134,000 weapons systems, the notice states. -
Is the Sig Sauer P229 still a standard issue to the officers in SAF?
With the SAR21 coming into service......is it a waste of resources and a drain on our logistics?
Same goes for Carl Gustav 84mm(replaced by Matador), Milan ATGW(replaced by Spike), Armburst(replaced by Matador), 0.5" HMG(redundant because of Bushmaster)........... -
Whooooa, you gotta excuse the ignorant Joe in me. I did not know that SAF officers were issued with sidearms. Like I said, please excuse the ignorance but when did this happen? I was hoping it would eventually happen but as I've said before, I've been out of touch with what's going on in the SAF for quite some time now.Originally posted by Warren Buffet:Is the Sig Sauer P229 still a standard issue to the officers in SAF?
I'm glad to hear it is/was the P229. The current DAK model is often requested from the DHS to the Coast Guards. Only thing I would change in it would be the slide stop. 'Hell & Back Reliability'....I have to agree.
Full Discloure: Yes, some folks at SIGARMS are my friends. I am a SIGARMS accessory re-seller (SIGTAC) and we're working on my being a supplier.
Here's a SIG custom i-SHOT P226R
This shows you the Warren rear sight that it is hard as hell to get your hands on. I've been on the wait list to re-sell this for almost a year now. A simple yet ingenous design; favored by a number of top shooters including Dave Sevigny and Phil Strader.
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Its the P226.Originally posted by Warren Buffet:Is the Sig Sauer P229 still a standard issue to the officers in SAF?
With the SAR21 coming into service......is it a waste of resources and a drain on our logistics?
Same goes for Carl Gustav 84mm(replaced by Matador), Milan ATGW(replaced by Spike), Armburst(replaced by Matador), 0.5" HMG(redundant because of Bushmaster)...........
And since when has the Matador replace the 84mm guns?? -
Now in the implementation phase.They should be prepraring the subcaliber training aids now.Originally posted by bcoy:Its the P226.
And since when has the Matador replace the 84mm guns??
Anyway, the fact that we are an arms exporter is not a problem, its the way that the government conducts themselves.Always seeking the easiest, no-brainer way out, supporting Myanmar with the ELINT ability to suppress and oppress her own people.The industry is made in such a way that we will sell to those who are willing to pay.It's all about the dough, and right until today, the casino issue has shown that we are just the bit players, and only the lead gets the whole goddamn opera.All about money...burning in hell is also a considerably good thing.
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Hahaha! With regards to the M60 & M240, you've got me on that one.Originally posted by tvdog:The M240 and the M60 are 2 completely different weapons.
I served in the infantry over a period close to ten years.
I, and a lot of other Singaporeans, am extremely uncomfortable with the fact that my country is one of the major arms exporters in Asia but yet the government strive hard to hide this fact from Singaporeans. Sure I am very proud of the fact that we make some really spiffy weapons but selling them to countries like with horrible, horrible human rights abuses records like Burma, Indonesia, Cambodia and certain East European countries - um... that really sucks.
Should Singapore continue to export arms - and keep it a secret from Singaporeans? The answer is a firm "NO".
There are other ways to make money.
What did I say about the SAR-21 that sounded like condemnation to you? I pointed out its shortcomings. I did not say it was a piece of crap. I did not say that it cannot be depended upon.
I didn't say that the SAR-21 is unproven. I said the magazine writers didn't field test the weapons themselves and mostly wrote what's printed on the sales brochure. Where did Jane's test the weapon? For how long did they test it and what were the tests exactly? WHERE did you get the impression I am condemning the SAR-21? The world isn't Black or White. I don't HATE or LOVE the SAR-21, but I definitely think the engineers missed out on a few important things.
In fact, I said in my last post that the fact that the SAF adopted the SAR-21 after rejecting the SAR-80 and SR-88 is testimony to the quality of the SAR-21. It is also testimony to the fact that SAF LISTENS to its soldiers who field tests the weapons. I know because a friend of mine was INVOLVED in the SAR-80 trials back in the 80's. The heavy weight was the main complaint.
Um... Of course you can fight with a bayonet in your hand. I can stab someone in the eye with a toothpick given the opportunity... but what's your point? Why can't we have a bayonet lug on the SAR-21? Why can't I make strong protest so that the people at ST will put a bayonet lug back onto the SAR-21? Will a bayonet lug affect the performance of the SAR-21? Why are you so adamant that we should not criticise a product so that it becomes better?
My grand pappy used to said it takes a fool not to recognise his mistakes before hand. Guess I'm the fool for just typing without checking.
Yes, I've fired off the FN MAG too while I was with the Union Jake army for awhile. Have you fired any models of M60s?
Good for you to have served 10 years of infantry duties, I've extra years to my credit with the U.S military.
Hey, in case you've forgotten, Singapore was also link to the sale of nuclear making parts to Iraq in the recent U.N reports.
Anyway, as long as there is money to be made, weapons would be sold to anyone willing to pay. And should it be a secret? Yes, from any government stand point of view. Its the same in the U.S except that we've got the Freedom of Speech, so there'll be people who would become,"DEEP-THROAT".
And the fact that in U.S, the weapons company rarely inform the government as to who they are selling their arms or tech to. So sometimes the government are in the dark as to how their arms are in the hands of the other.
True, there are other alternative to making money but you'll have to be in the arms industry to know why they would sell their arms to other unwelcome parties. I'm sure you've heard of arms shows almost every year, at these shows you can actually pick any weapon up on the spot if you pay by cash. You get a discount if you buy more then 5 crates of the weapon from 1 company, no questions asked.
Well, everything you've said about the SAR 21 sounds as good as condamning it. No, I did not claim that you said the weapon is a "piece of crap" nor did I claim that you said it "cannot be depended upon".
I'm not sure how you concluded that most mag writers don't test fire the weapon that they report on but thats ok. Anyway, I know for certain that the writers for Jane's mag did indeed get at least a prototype version of any weapon in the market & run it to their own sets of test. Otherwise, you can always file a law suit against them for publishing unsubstantiated reports on the product in question.
Well, if you've stated the way you're now stating about the SAR 21, we wouldn't be talking about it now would we?
Are you really sure that you can stab someone in the eye with a tooth pick? Most of the fights I've been involved in, my targets don't usually stand around to be stab unless from behind which requires alot of stalking skills. But anyway, of course you're entitled to make your protest all you want to ST( whats it stand for? ) but did you protest it to them or hoping that they'll be reading it from this forum?
Ok, I guess I do sound a bit overly harsh about defending this weapon. But like I've stated earlier, I'm surprised at how fast Singaporeans are at criticising their own made products. And the fact that the criticism comes with no solutions is as good as all talk & not action. If you really think you've got an ideal or suggestion on how the weapon should be best for the infantryman then write a letter or a proposal to ST. Who knows, they just might even pay you for your ideal.