Martial arts
-
I think they should not learn TkD and more of grappling,those flying and roundhouse kicks take a long time to master and they might not be able to master it quickly should there be a need for use of unarmed combat.
-
the best is ju-jitsu for unarmed combat, where the americans spec forces like green berets learn too. aikido is also good
-
Yes,heard that our CDO have abandon TKD for something more offensive.
-
Krav Maga is taught by independant instructors to some units...
-
yeah and if you consider that it takes 5 years before you can actually put it to good use, i dun think it is very feasible here. it is easier to take up tKd or karate anytime. Cos you dun have to remember so much techniques.Originally posted by Arena:the best is ju-jitsu for unarmed combat, where the americans spec forces like green berets learn too. aikido is also good -
No no no no no no NOT AikiDo!!!
That stuff doesn't work. Sure, a select few have come out with variants of Aikido that actually works....but then why not take something that consistently works?
Anyway, i think this has been discussed a coupla months before where i spit venom at the SAF's UC program. Good thing is that the SAF has recently revamped its program. Another good thing is that judging from the following video, the Iranians seems to be teaching crap too....
Watch for the one-step sparring:
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=53728&ak=null
Or
http://www.broadbandreports.com/r0/download/796352~b9b5b5df664da66c9dd2e2b88adab53e/2393152761.zip
And i think those are nunchakus they are twirling... -
you in aikido before?Originally posted by lwflee:No no no no no no NOT AikiDo!!!
That stuff doesn't work. Sure, a select few have come out with variants of Aikido that actually works....but then why not take something that consistently works?
Anyway, i think this has been discussed a coupla months before where i spit venom at the SAF's UC program. Good thing is that the SAF has recently revamped its program. Another good thing is that judging from the following video, the Iranians seems to be teaching crap too....
Watch for the one-step sparring:
http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ClipMediaID=53728&ak=null
Or
http://www.broadbandreports.com/r0/download/796352~b9b5b5df664da66c9dd2e2b88adab53e/2393152761.zip
And i think those are nunchakus they are twirling... -
Yea. About 1 year. At tampines safra. Abt. 6 years ago though.
-
so you were 5th r 6th kyu i suppose?Originally posted by lwflee:Yea. About 1 year. At tampines safra. Abt. 6 years ago though.
actually it is not that it is useless lah
it is just that in training those strokes seems rather flowery.
but when actual situations come, i dun expect you to excecute those stroke. Most likely you will be excecuting the most basic but the most efficient ones. The trick to akido is to be able to use the correct technique in the right situation. and thats the hard part.
Anyway as i said, it takes time to master akido or jujitsu to utilise it fully. So i wun really say that it is useless nor would i say it is overwhelmingly good.
personally, i feel that aikido focus too much on the offensive. For those taking aikido, they should pair it up with a more offensive type of martial arts, say TKD or KRT -
MMA is the way to go.. plus krav maga.
-
Yea, only a white belt. But i stand by my observations (Albeit arguably uninformed). But yes, i do agree that Aikido can, when practised by certain select practitioners be useful, but like i said above, i do not htink Aikido can consistently train fighters. Anyway, like you said, Aikido is too defensive in nature for it to be implemented in a soldier's UC program.Originally posted by CenturionMBT:so you were 5th r 6th kyu i suppose?
actually it is not that it is useless lah
it is just that in training those strokes seems rather flowery.
but when actual situations come, i dun expect you to excecute those stroke. Most likely you will be excecuting the most basic but the most efficient ones. The trick to akido is to be able to use the correct technique in the right situation. and thats the hard part.
Anyway as i said, it takes time to master akido or jujitsu to utilise it fully. So i wun really say that it is useless nor would i say it is overwhelmingly good.
personally, i feel that aikido focus too much on the offensive. For those taking aikido, they should pair it up with a more offensive type of martial arts, say TKD or KRT
Ok, a short list of my dis-satisfaction with Aikido:
- Trg Method is nonsense. As far as trg goes, Uke is supposed to follow the other's lead. No Resistance, No Spontaniety.
- I haven't seen any practitioner in the club that i felt could deal with the basic Jab-Jab-Cross or jab-Cross-Hook combo. None. Try catching those punches. This criticism can also be directed at the now defunct SAF UC program. I really dun think the inside outside block transitioning to an arm grab and coupled with a *HIA* and followed by a back fist to the nose will do.
Ditto for plum hold and knee to the face.
- As you said, too defensive in nature.
- BAsically, i think Aikido's philosophy sounds all fine and dandy except that it is very difficult to apply that philosophy in any realistic setting.
Now, some would say that if Aikido is so lousy, why is Morihei Ueshiba acknowledged as a great fighter? i dunno, though some have suggested that as he grew older, his style of aikido changed and became softer.
I learnt more in my first month at my MMA club and in my first month at my BJJ club than i ever did in Aikido, or SAF UC. Eg. First Jab of my first sparring session knocked the contact lens right outta my eye. So much for the inside-outside forearm block, and so much for blending.
That said, the elbow lock and wrist locks i learnt in aikido weren't really useless, esp the elbow lock. But, i can learn those in JJJ, Judo, BJJ, Wrestling, Sambo, etc etc etc. And when i used the elbow lock, i just powered by way into it., thereby contradicting the philosophy of aikido.
Another thing that i liked about Aikido is that it is simply beautiful to watch at times, when the demonstrator seemingly flows into the throws, etc. Beautiful, but i seriously doubt its effectiveness. -
I believe that any martial art form practised over time have its certain effectiveness and usage.. But when u encounter street fighting, all hell breaks loose. There's no rule, no fix pattern, no fix stroke..
It's yr fitness, reflex, and ability to run tat is going to preserve yr life.
not any of those fancy beautifully executed strokes that u see in any movies. -
true in a way. But at the same time, what they are trying to train in you, is situation awareness and instinct, so that you have a slight upper hand when it comes to actual combat.Originally posted by carlover88:I believe that any martial art form practised over time have its certain effectiveness and usage.. But when u encounter street fighting, all hell breaks loose. There's no rule, no fix pattern, no fix stroke..
It's yr fitness, reflex, and ability to run tat is going to preserve yr life.
not any of those fancy beautifully executed strokes that u see in any movies. -
Imagine you are smelly and hungry too and filled with extreme fatigue.Executing one of those roundhouse kicks would not be excatly useful, you would also have to consider the environment factors which none of you do.
1.Supposing you are fighting with an enemy soldier surronded by shrubs and trees, you wouldnt have enough space for a roundhouse kick.
2.The jungle floor is muddy and wet after a day of rain.Executing certain types of moves would make you slip and fall, you may also lose the fight.
The saf needs a training system which is flexible, and can be used in confined spaces and when the soldier is fatigued.
To add to it,they should also practice fighting in confined spaces,muddy and slippery grounds and the worst conditions ever to get them rugged up when the time comes -
How Bout Muay Thai man. ?
-
In response,what is needed is to KISS(Keep is Simple & Stupid)
What you need is a system like Krav Maga and [maybe] BJJ(Brazilian Jujitsu).Krav Maga emphasises sometimes-lethal and swift action against enemies using simple techniques which are easy to learn and remember.
BJJ emphasises groundfighting and grappling techniques,which are the ones most often used in close combat. -
Agree with KISS.
End of the day, one should realise one capability and physical limits.
The training should be able to get you to realise yr limits and abilities.
Any training should also include recognition of one's weak spot or nodes of the body.
Certain vital spots could be easily deal with a single blow rather than multiple
strokes aim at other non-crucial parts.. -
The requirements for a military martial art are quite specific. It must be quick and easy to train, effective for situations that soldiers will encounter on the battlefield and allow a continuum of force. The last one means giving the soldier a range of responses, from non-lethal defense to lethal attack. No traditional martial art -- TKD, Karate, Aikido, etc -- meets all these requirements. Most of them fail the first one -- they take too long to train.
The best military martial arts are those specifically designed for the army that uses it, e.g. Krav Maga or the US Marine Corps Martial Arts Programme (MCMAP). They are "broad but shallow", drilling simple but effective responses to a wide range of common situations until they become reflex, along with body conditioning and hardening. They do not teach deeper aspects of unarmed combat, such as timing/distance, balance/position, movement or blending since they take too long. This produces an effective and powerful fighter quickly, but one that may not know how to respond to situations outside those he has been taught. For a soldier, that is often enough.
If the SAF is serious about teaching martial arts, it should design one itself, and continue to develop and maintain it. In this sense, the UC programme is a step in the right direction, though it has a long way to go. Otherwise, we should use Krav Maga, suitably renamed for political purposes, since we have access to Israeli trainers if we ask nicely. -
KISS = Basic Boxing + Wrestling + (2 x Personnel) + (2 x Gloves) + (3 x Rounds of 3 Mins).
Tried, tested, proven.
No *HIA* *HIA* (snigger...when was the last time you saw someone get knocked out by shouting a Kiai lol...). No "hold my wrist/shoulder/cock...no the other wrist/shoulder/cock".
Doesn't get ant simpler than that.
Edit: Even better: (1 x SAR 21) + (1 x Sandbag) + (1 x personnel) + (3 x 3 min rounds). That's all you need really. -
FYI, the GBs, like every other U.S SFs, have no specific UC following. In fact, its a mix of anything that works. There was a time when TKD was taught then it was some Russian martial art, etc, etc.Originally posted by Arena:the best is ju-jitsu for unarmed combat, where the americans spec forces like green berets learn too. aikido is also good
Personal recommendation for military UC should be anything that ensures a soldier to kill his enemy then by all means use it.
-
There are many meanings regarding the effectivness of taekwondo. This is the story on how taekwondo made a difference in real battle. The history is written by by LtCol James F. Durand. He writes how the Korean Marines saved their lives using taekwondo as selfdefence when they where almost overrun by Vietcong and NVA (North Vietnamese Army) soldiers during the battle of Tra Binh Dong.
In establishing the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP), Gen James L. Jones frequently recounted his observations of Korean Marines during the Vietnam War. The fact that Republic of Korea (ROK) servicemen were skilled in the Korean martial art tae kwon do was widely known, evoking respect among allies and instilling fear in the enemy. The former Commandant recalled that his own Marines envied this skill, believing the Korean Marines were the most feared adversary on the battlefield and that North Vietnamese soldiers and Viet Cong irregulars would bypass Korean units whenever possible.
Despite a long and rich martial arts history, the Korean martial arts program was in its relative infancy at the time of the Vietnam War; tae kwon do had yet to achieve its current status as a national pastime or an international sport. Nonetheless, tae kwon do was a martial art in the truest sense of the word, developed by a soldier to enhance the fighting abilities of his soldiers. By the time the first servicemen deployed to Vietnam, all branches of the Korean military had implemented martial arts training programs. Moreover, it was in Vietnam that the value of martial arts training in combat operations was conclusively demonstrated. Accordingly, the history of tae kwon do in the Korean Armed Forces provides valuable insight to American Marines as the MCMAP enters its fifth year.........continue on http://www.ttu.no/article.php?story=20050418204745578
Impt highlights:
The role of martial arts training in the battle has been a topic of discussion for nearly four decades. At the press conference following the battle, Capt Jung was adamant in his opinion that tae kwon do contributed greatly to the combat abilities and fighting spirit of the Korean Marines, both enlisted and officers.24 In a graphic description, Time noted that martial arts training was critical to the victory:
It was knife to knife and hand-to-hand—and in that sort of fighting the Koreans, with their deadly tae kwon do (a form of karate), are unbeatable. When the action stopped shortly after dawn, 104 enemy bodies lay within the wire, many of them eviscerated or brained.25
Asked to provide their opinions for this article, both Taeguk Medal recipients stated that martial arts training significantly contributed to the Marines’ victory. LtCol Jung, now retired and living in Seoul, emphasized two areas in which tae kwon do influenced his Marines:
First, the enemy suddenly overwhelmed our trenches and continuously piled up to the degree that we were unable to use rifles and bayonets as weapons. There were many instances in which we were pushing and pulling each other inside the trenches. At that time, Tae Kwon Do became the Korean Marines’ weapon and by hitting the enemy in his vital parts, we brought him under our control.
Second, it can be seen that the courage to be unafraid when facing your enemy was trained through Tae Kwon Do. Although we didn’t have a path of retreat and had to stay in our position, the fortitude to fight bravely while exposed to the enemy led to victory at the Battle of Tra Binh Dong.26
Retired MajGen Shin Won Bae, who later commanded the Blue Dragon unit (now the 2d ROK Marine Division) provided similar insights, noting:
Even though tactics call for fixing bayonets to rifles during close quarters to neutralize the enemy, our weapon at the time, the M–1 rifle, was not a weapon that could be wielded quickly. In urgent situations, the Marine in the front would fiercely strike the enemy’s face and vital parts using Tae Kwon Do, causing him to momentarily lose his will to fight. Then a second Marine would finish off the enemy with the rifle. Additionally, striking the enemy with an entrenching tool was highly effective in destroying the will to fight among the enemy’s lead elements. While Tae Kwon Do demonstrated its practical effectiveness on the battlefield, more importantly, martial arts training instilled the confidence to defeat the enemy in each Marine. I think this is the greater significance of Tae Kwon Do training.27 -
As if to underscore the strength of the ROKMC Martial Arts Program, the Korean Marine team won the National Tae Kwon Do Championship in November 1967, the same year as the battle of Tra Binh Dong.29 The following year ROKMC headquarters began to include tae kwon do with marksmanship qualification and physical fitness testing as measures of combat readiness. (Tae kwon do is now part of the ROKMC physical fitness test.)30 Despite the demonstrated success of the martial arts program, both the Marine Corps and Army continued to experiment with new styles and techniques. The Marines developed mu chuk do, a more lethal form of tae kwon do. However, after teaching this form throughout the Corps for several years, the Marines reverted to tae kwon do as the standard, reserving mu chuk do for Marines assigned to reconnaissance units.31 Similarly, Special forces units practice tu kong moo sul, while tae kwon do remains the standard for the ROK Army.
-
Tae Kwon Do is a very effective Korean martial art that is only around 50 years old. It is a practical martial art that proved itself during the Vietnam war in the ‘60s and the ‘70s. As the result of the effectiveness in the war, this pure TKD has been incorporated as special forces training in the military around the world after the Vietnam war.
There are four main components of pure TKD. Basic techniques, forms, sparring(one, two, three step, semi-free, and free), and self-defense. As commercialism arose in TKD for the point sparring(sport TKD), only kicking became the rage and emphasis in training in most schools. Techniques that did not involve kicks were de-emphasized. From the late ‘80s on, techniques that did not involve kicking slowly disappeared from most TKD schools around the world. Black belt instructors and senior students from this time frame could not and did not match the quality of skills of the best TKD instructors of the ‘70s.
PURE TKD as it was meant to be: The basics, forms(now called tuls), sparring, self-defense and other practical aspects of TKD(falls, throw, joint locks, manipulation, pressure points, and power generation) that has been lost or de-emphasized in modern sport TKD. This is the reason why TKD is losing to other martial arts not because it is useless.It is due to commercialism as a sport and not many pple in spore practice pure tkd as a martial arts -
I'm surprised SAF placed so little faith in chinese schools of martial arts.
This is where many forms of Asian martial arts is adapted from. The Korean TKD is probably 3rd grade compared to chinese martial arts.
But of all the chinese style, the Bruce Lee style of Jit Kuen Do is probably the most effective. It is an amalgamation of many chinese traitional styles. It is the best for street fighting.
He adapted his 1-inch punch from Weng Tsun (which I learnt for a short while in HK), and his kicks from somewhere else probably Shaolin. So it is a combination of both northern and southern China styles.
Southern style Weng Tsun is best for small stature people and it emphasises on punches to the sensitve areas like nose, throat, jaws and kidneys for quick despatch of opponents. Kicks are less empahsised and are directed only to the lower sentive areas like groin and knees.
Weng Tsun also teaches you to flow with the enemy's movement and use his own forward momentum against him.
Weng Tsun and Jit Kuen Do are the most popular forms of chinese martial arts in western countries. Shaolin are less common as it is very hard to find true masters to teach this very demanding martial art form.
But while Weng Tsun is an extremely devious form of street fighting it does not fit a military's demand for a very aggressive-looking fighting form. Therefore, Shaolin Kung Fu would still be the best. All PLA Spec Ops take Shaolin Kung Fu. -
Errm - JKD is a philosophy, not a style. It is like MMA. Also, Bruce Lee abandoned Wing Tsun...Originally posted by tvdog:I'm surprised SAF placed so little faith in chinese schools of martial arts.
This is where many forms of Asian martial arts is adapted from. The Korean TKD is probably 3rd grade compared to chinese martial arts.
But of all the chinese style, the Bruce Lee style of Jit Kuen Do is probably the most effective. It is an amalgamation of many chinese traitional styles. It is the best for street fighting.
He adapted his 1-inch punch from Weng Tsun (which I learnt for a short while in HK), and his kicks from somewhere else probably Shaolin. So it is a combination of both northern and southern China styles.
Southern style Weng Tsun is best for small stature people and it emphasises on punches to the sensitve areas like nose, throat, jaws and kidneys for quick despatch of opponents. Kicks are less empahsised and are directed only to the lower sentive areas like groin and knees.
Weng Tsun also teaches you to flow with the enemy's movement and use his own forward momentum against him.
Weng Tsun and Jit Kuen Do are the most popular forms of chinese martial arts in western countries. Shaolin are less common as it is very hard to find true masters to teach this very demanding martial art form.
But while Weng Tsun is an extremely devious form of street fighting it does not fit a military's demand for a very aggressive-looking fighting form. Therefore, Shaolin Kung Fu would still be the best. All PLA Spec Ops take Shaolin Kung Fu.