Increase BMT Difficulty
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But how far and how long?Originally posted by quivalen:actually i did mention a few changes - longer route march, lengthened field camp duration.
also it'd be good if commanders were given some leeway to tekkan their men. no - tekkan isn't the right word - rather, discipline when justified.
i know this is rather like opening pandora's box - where do you draw the line at what's justifiable and all that - but what i'm angling at is to get rid of this saf-hotline-culture where the moment the recruit is made to do something he doesn't like, he calls the hotline, or goes crying bloody murder to his parents/uncle/grandpa/mp/maid etc. and i'm sure we all know what is most likely to happen in the event of a complaint - the commander who instituted the punishment will get his ass handed to him, regardless of whether it was justifiable or not. why? because the saf will bend over backwards to pacify parents/uncle/grandpa/maid if he/she's making a big enough ruckus.
Personally, i think BMT as it is serves its purpose.
And i think you have to much faith in the SAF hotline. Most likely, the commander involved will get sent an email. -
yes, i do realise it is hard to quantify how much more will bring BMT's difficulty up to required 'level'.Originally posted by lwflee:But how far and how long?
Personally, i think BMT as it is serves its purpose.
And i think you have to much faith in the SAF hotline. Most likely, the commander involved will get sent an email.
but the problem right now is that commanders are more and more having to treat their men with kid gloves, for fear of stepping on someone's toes - for a regular he has his career to think about, while for an NSF he just wants to finish his 2+ years without incident and get the hell out. in both cases these guys are probably not going to have the motivation to do any more than the bare minimum. and what sort of soldiers is this handling going to turn out?
no matter what, this is still the ARMY.
as for the hotline, i would've thought that the person involved would at least have some disciplinary action taken against him. for a regular, the fear of even getting an email - taking your word for it that an email will be the end of the matter - is probably going to make him apprehensive about doing anything anywhere near stern enough to warrant an email - career, remember? while an NSF is probably going to sign some.
for example a friend of mine who was a BMTC PC once signed 7 for knocking down a recruit. i can't remember exactly the details, but my friend hardly had the recuit crawling through con wire with his ali baba on his head - it was just more than 20 pushups and i trust my friend enough to take his word that the punishment was justified. for that - 7 weekends? hardly an incentive to try instilling discipline in your men. -
Heng,I have failings,but do not make the mistake of thinking you know me fully.A single face to face meeting and you choose to judge me?Ok.Originally posted by HENG@:lets put it this way. if u knew him fully and he was standing in front of u saying all these, u would be either inclined to laugh at him or punch him. at least he has the guts to post all these u say? hey its not too difficult to post something controversal here. I should know. I've been in more than my fair share of flame wars. But it does help when you truely believe in what you're posting here you know?
Anyways so what if BMT is getting more slack? there are plenty of opportunities to get tougher in the unit themselves. u want tough from the start, no one's stopping u from signing on. 
Just make sure you keep to the topic in this thread.My failings can be aired in public on another thread or through private message,or even through MSN chatting where you can say what you want to me.can or not? -
BMT is to get civilians ready for more army training. BMT does not make you a soldier. It just makes you ready to be trained as a soldier.
For most people, even very fit ones, BMT is a real life-changing event.
Definitely so for me. I found it to be the toughest 3 months of my life. But I really appreaciated what it brought out in me. I was physically AND mentally a weakling. After BMT, no more.
But all the money in the world would not make me want to go through BMT again.
Was it tough?
You bet. -
whaaaa?Originally posted by tvdog:BMT is to get civilians ready for more army training. BMT does not make you a soldier. It just makes you ready to be trained as a soldier.
sooo....all the rifle handling, grenade throw, fire movement...all that is just, like, playing at being soldiers? or maybe just a warm-up, huh?For most people, even very fit ones, BMT is a real life-changing event.
so a tough bmt was beneficial, then.
Definitely so for me. I found it to be the toughest 3 months of my life. But I really appreaciated what it brought out in me. I was physically AND mentally a weakling. After BMT, no more.
But all the money in the world would not make me want to go through BMT again.
Was it tough?
You bet. -
Someone who has learnt the multiplication tables in primary school is not ready to be an accountant.Originally posted by quivalen:whaaaa?
sooo....all the rifle handling, grenade throw, fire movement...all that is just, like, playing at being soldiers? or maybe just a warm-up, huh?
First of all, are you or were you ever part of a combat unit? And in case you ask, I was a rifleman.
Just because someone can shoot an M16 or have thrown a grenade doesn't make him ready to be part of a real combat unit. In a real infantry unit for example everyone has a specialised job like SAW gunner, sharpshooter, M203 grenadier, LAW gunner.
And you need further training for these kinds of specialised roles.
And after you are trained in these individual skills you to back to your assigned unit and train to be a part of this larger cohesive force playing your specific role.
And then there are others who go on for OCS or specialised arms like armour, arty, Navy etc.
That's why I say, someone with just 3 months' basic training is only ready to be trained as a real soldier. -
Quivalen, please understand that BMT prepares a soldier for his vocational training, it does not prepare him for war.It's like a foundation course.IF you can make the grade, then you can move on.What do you want?For a recruit to be thrown straight into CST?I think we have enough hoo-ha over there already.Gradual training and evaluation is the way to go.Throwing people into the deep end of the pool is over.Originally posted by tvdog:Someone who has learnt the multiplication tables in primary school is not ready to be an accountant.
First of all, are you or were you ever part of a combat unit? And in case you ask, I was a rifleman.
Just because someone can shoot an M16 or have thrown a grenade doesn't make him ready to be part of a real combat unit. In a real infantry unit for example everyone has a specialised job like SAW gunner, sharpshooter, M203 grenadier, LAW gunner.
And you need further training for these kinds of specialised roles.
And after you are trained in these individual skills you to back to your assigned unit and train to be a part of this larger cohesive force playing your specific role.
And then there are others who go on for OCS or specialised arms like armour, arty, Navy etc.
That's why I say, someone with just 3 months' basic training is only ready to be trained as a real soldier. -
i'll thank you not to imply that i'm another armchair general or specops wannabe so common in these forums.Originally posted by tvdog:Someone who has learnt the multiplication tables in primary school is not ready to be an accountant.
First of all, are you or were you ever part of a combat unit? And in case you ask, I was a rifleman.
i've ORDed from a combat unit, ok?Just because someone can shoot an M16 or have thrown a grenade doesn't make him ready to be part of a real combat unit. In a real infantry unit for example everyone has a specialised job like SAW gunner, sharpshooter, M203 grenadier, LAW gunner.
now that you've elaborated i get what you're saying although u gotta realise it was pretty weird you saying that "BMT does not make you a soldier" without explaining it.
And you need further training for these kinds of specialised roles.
And after you are trained in these individual skills you to back to your assigned unit and train to be a part of this larger cohesive force playing your specific role.
And then there are others who go on for OCS or specialised arms like armour, arty, Navy etc.
That's why I say, someone with just 3 months' basic training is only ready to be trained as a real soldier. -
if you take a look at my previous posts, i've never once suggested throwing a new recruit into anything near the deep end of the pool. in fact i've taken pains to reiterate that pretty often.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Quivalen, please understand that BMT prepares a soldier for his vocational training, it does not prepare him for war.It's like a foundation course.IF you can make the grade, then you can move on.What do you want?For a recruit to be thrown straight into CST?I think we have enough hoo-ha over there already.Gradual training and evaluation is the way to go.Throwing people into the deep end of the pool is over.
and yes, i accept tvdog's and your point that BMT is a preparation for further training. however i've also said before that my point is not to impart more technical skills to the recruit - like CST as you say - nor is it even to make the recruit particularly fit physically.
what i've always said is that the main benefit is mental - not some tangible one which will turn out an army of super-privates after 3 months. confidence in yourself is a useful thing to have, isn't it, no matter where you're posted after that. the realisation that "hey, i've managed to do something more difficult than anything i've ever done before, something i never thought possible" -
highly very suspicious that quivalen is sarduakar himself
look at the date which quivalen sign up as a forumite and the way quivalen spells similar to equivalent -
quivalen similar to equivalent == quivalen is sardaukar?Originally posted by G.I. Lim:highly very suspicious that quivalen is sarduakar himself
look at the date which quivalen sign up as a forumite and the way quivalen spells similar to equivalent
damn you're smart! shi.t, how'd you catch me out? well...since you with your omniscience surely know already, i might as well come clean:
yes, i shot JFK.
general yamash.ita's gold? in my bank account.
iraq's WMD? under my bed.
and osama is in my guest room.
dude i hope to god you meant this as some lame joke because otherwise, you're just demonstrating what an ass you are.
if you haven't anything constructive to say, don't say it. -
You seem surprisingly defensive for somebody who is not related to somebody else they say you are, what does it matter.
Anyway, as much as I would love BMT to be tougher, there are other dynamics to consider, and it does look like it's going not to be tougher, but prehaps, a smarter way of training... -
well, first of all its a patently untrue and unfounded accusation. and it impinges on my integrity, and, incidentally, sardaukar's as well.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:You seem surprisingly defensive for somebody who is not related to somebody else they say you are, what does it matter.
although perhaps you're right and i should have more faith in the good sense of most people here and let this idiot tarnish his own reputation with his baseless conspiracy theories.
ah, finally someone else who thinks BMT should be tougher. perhaps you'd like to elaborate?
Anyway, as much as I would love BMT to be tougher, there are other dynamics to consider, and it does look like it's going not to be tougher, but prehaps, a smarter way of training...
as for a smarter way of training...i don't know - what new initiatives which the SAF has introduced do you think actually works well?
take IMT for example - i feel its pretty useless, really. no substitute for actual range, and it isn't realistic anyway, especially in terms of target appearance and aiming. another example is STK's simulation cabin for driver trainees - i've used it and it is totally unrealistic - even the instructors admit that. yet a not-insignificant number of sessions on the simulator are a required part of the course. -
I am currently serving my NS now and i am not in a service vocation altough i very much hope to be in one... I am quite sure anyone wishes for that silently in their heart...
Frankly, if you want tougher training, go sign up as guards or commandos or something.... Many of us are just civilians the previous day and simply want to get our NS over and done with...
I do not enjoy crawling through mud, wearing grimy uniforms for 7days in a row all just for the sake of being 'tougher'....
As each day goes by, i simply lose sight of the aim of NS, am I doing it to protect all those chinese/asean scholars that study and compete with me for places in education yet not serve NS? Am I supposed to keep them safe so that they can study harder and get all the better courses and degrees and prehaps leave when they wanna....?
But i am glad theres people who are garang like you to protect me... -
Why question BMT training methods and the logic behind serving NS?
War is stupid and illogical. It's not likely Singapore will start any wars but in case someone is stupid enough to come and attack us, we want to make sure they all go home in little pieces.
That's all, nothing logical or meaningful about it.
When war comes to Singapore, I want to be shooting back instead of hiding. Even when I am 60, if I still have OK eyesight I want to be fighting instead of hiding. So, yes, I think everyone should continue serving NS.
Some srmy training methods should be questioned. But you must realized that the most important thing about military training is to train you to stop thinking and react automatically to situations.
Fir example, in Thailand training, the Thai soldiers refer to the SG soldiers as robots.
Why?
When patrolling in the forest, a shot is fired. All the Thai soldiers hit the ground. Some SAF soldiers, stood around looking for where the shot came from. Which, when you think about it, is the logical thing to do.
That's why military training is to stop you from thinking, but to react first.
Some training are stupid. During my BMT, the stupid instructors used to give us 10mins to clean our weapons after training. And then they give us "stand-by-rifle" where they found faults and happily punished everyone. These inspections and punishments lasts for up to TWO HOURS.
During our session with the OO, without the instructors present, I stood up and said that if the instructors really wanted our rifles to be clean, they should give us more time to clean our weapons, not 10mins.
We immediately got more time to clean our weapons from then on.[/url] -
adn i thot the SAF was based on the israeli model of their armyOriginally posted by jianfish:I am currently serving my NS now and i am not in a service vocation altough i very much hope to be in one... I am quite sure anyone wishes for that silently in their heart...
Frankly, if you want tougher training, go sign up as guards or commandos or something.... Many of us are just civilians the previous day and simply want to get our NS over and done with...
I do not enjoy crawling through mud, wearing grimy uniforms for 7days in a row all just for the sake of being 'tougher'....
As each day goes by, i simply lose sight of the aim of NS, am I doing it to protect all those chinese/asean scholars that study and compete with me for places in education yet not serve NS? Am I supposed to keep them safe so that they can study harder and get all the better courses and degrees and prehaps leave when they wanna....?
But i am glad theres people who are garang like you to protect me...
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sardaukar sardaukar... what i've told u on msn b4, i hope u still remember. seriously, this is singapore, not USA. maybe u've forgotten some of my advice? i don't think i've exactly aired your failings in public. i've merely pointed out that u have failings, i've not said WHAT those failings are. besides m'dear, have u not learnt that 1st impressions counts for a lot?Originally posted by Sardaukar:Heng,I have failings,but do not make the mistake of thinking you know me fully.A single face to face meeting and you choose to judge me?Ok.
Just make sure you keep to the topic in this thread.My failings can be aired in public on another thread or through private message,or even through MSN chatting where you can say what you want to me.can or not?
Anyways just so u know, i have nothing against u personally, but this call to increase BMT difficult is just absurd. perhaps u need to remember the world are not made up of your clones, and that when they plan BMT they have to do so with a broad range of people in mind. Of course, when u complain that BMT is too easy, just bear in mind that LOTS of people here have gone thru BMT, but few have complained that it is too tough. Tough or not, majority of the people here grin and bear it. Seriously, if u asked around, many others would not tell u they found it that tough either. But they do what they have to, and do it well, and thats all that matters. For you come out and complain that its too easy, well, smacks a bit of arrogance. so you don't wonder why so many people didn't exactly look at u in a rosy way do you? -
Originally posted by quivalen:
Bolded Points:
i'm not suggesting we[b] insert tekkan sessions into the training who can deny its benefits?
big picture, y'know?
[/b]
As far as you, me, and the rest of the RECs know, there is no official training called "TEKAN session" anywhere in the training program. Tekan Sessions are handed out as and when the instructer/PTI wants to.
A very common reason: Cannot Echo.
[/b] -
Originally posted by Johnston:
As far as i and the rest of the RECs know (but not you, obviously), i meant that figuratively only. if you take everything you read so literally...you must be very confused most of the time.
Bolded Points:
As far as you, me, and the rest of the RECs know, there is no official training called "TEKAN session" anywhere in the training program. Tekan Sessions are handed out as and when the instructer/PTI wants to.
A very common reason: Cannot Echo.
[/b]
n.b. Johnston's cut-n-pasting has made my original post seem like it was endorsing tekkan - that isn't the case. -
Good point.Though appearing arrogant was not the intended effect of my message.And yes,I have forgotten the advice.Originally posted by HENG@:sardaukar sardaukar... what i've told u on msn b4, i hope u still remember. seriously, this is singapore, not USA. maybe u've forgotten some of my advice? i don't think i've exactly aired your failings in public. i've merely pointed out that u have failings, i've not said WHAT those failings are. besides m'dear, have u not learnt that 1st impressions counts for a lot?
Anyways just so u know, i have nothing against u personally, but this call to increase BMT difficult is just absurd. perhaps u need to remember the world are not made up of your clones, and that when they plan BMT they have to do so with a broad range of people in mind. Of course, when u complain that BMT is too easy, just bear in mind that LOTS of people here have gone thru BMT, but few have complained that it is too tough. Tough or not, majority of the people here grin and bear it. Seriously, if u asked around, many others would not tell u they found it that tough either. But they do what they have to, and do it well, and thats all that matters. For you come out and complain that its too easy, well, smacks a bit of arrogance. so you don't wonder why so many people didn't exactly look at u in a rosy way do you?
Please note that GI Lim and I are in the same company.Quivalen and I are not the same.I am not so eloquent. -
Just a point to add..Originally posted by tvdog:Some training are stupid. During my BMT, the stupid instructors used to give us 10mins to clean our weapons after training. And then they give us "stand-by-rifle" where they found faults and happily punished everyone. These inspections and punishments lasts for up to TWO HOURS.
During our session with the OO, without the instructors present, I stood up and said that if the instructors really wanted our rifles to be clean, they should give us more time to clean our weapons, not 10mins.
We immediately got more time to clean our weapons from then on.[/url]
I guess u have never cleaned your arms till it was around 3am in the morning(4 hours of cleaning)?
Anyway toughening BMT is not needed..I treat it as more like an inductance to a combat life and it does a pretty good job in doing so -
doh... i'd like to see u go thru the fire fighter training sia. carry 2 20kg hoses and wearing the fire jacket and legging and that smelly helmet. being chased by a psycho encik who is swinging his stick trying to hit you, running around a cemetery at mid day. heat stroke sia..
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har? wat fire fighter training?Originally posted by dumbdumb!:doh... i'd like to see u go thru the fire fighter training sia. carry 2 20kg hoses and wearing the fire jacket and legging and that smelly helmet. being chased by a psycho encik who is swinging his stick trying to hit you, running around a cemetery at mid day. heat stroke sia.. -
SCDF ah? training involves running around with the hose in a cemetery? got a nice SCDF academy in Boon Lay don't use?Originally posted by dumbdumb!:doh... i'd like to see u go thru the fire fighter training sia. carry 2 20kg hoses and wearing the fire jacket and legging and that smelly helmet. being chased by a psycho encik who is swinging his stick trying to hit you, running around a cemetery at mid day. heat stroke sia.. -
when i say clones, i mean literally, physical clones of yourself, in the context that i mean it in, NOT sgforum clones.Originally posted by Sardaukar:Good point.Though appearing arrogant was not the intended effect of my message.And yes,I have forgotten the advice.
Please note that GI Lim and I are in the same company.Quivalen and I are not the same.I am not so eloquent.