F-15T compromised?
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you are really getting paranoid here. Anyway, I dun really care if you are anti malaysian or not, but if one bunch of them decide to come here for a flame war, you may be held responsible for it.Originally posted by tripwire:if every nation on earth are truely worried about political or diplomatic consequences, spies would be out of jobs!
i have no doubt there are smart malaysians, i just dont know if you are.
afterall... so what if we caught them doing it? what are we gonna do? start a war? at best boeing would just leave malaysia... and malaysian economy wont even feel its absence!
yet the consequences for such a breach on our security would be critical. NOT to mention the billions of dollars that we would need to spend, to make their information redundent. you think SAF too much money no where to throw!?
worst!! if we fail to detect such a breach and happily continue to talk cock sing song in sgforum, while malaysian spies and defence expert seeks ways and means to crack our F-15T.
MINDEF's intel reach can only go so far, its unable to bug every malaysian and keep track of their daily activities...
and why would we wanna put ourselves in a compromise position in the first place if we knew in advance the potential problem!?
lastly, i am not sowing discord... but politics are an ugly affair... naviety is the first step towards national disaster.
i hope MINDEF would take the neccessary precaution.. but it aint the first time MINDEF mess up in its acquisition... but you wont hear it in public... only that some crabs would be going for early retirement. -
Don't be like this lah pal.
you over paranoid man!
anyway, idwar is back...
i wanna hear what he has to say though.
Your really making a big fuss out of it.. -
are you out of your mind?Originally posted by CenturionMBT:you are really getting paranoid here. Anyway, I dun really care if you are anti malaysian or not, but if one bunch of them decide to come here for a flame war, you may be held responsible for it.
what is wrong with me expressing my concern over the security of my country?
and why should i be held responsible if a bunch of malaysians wanna come here for a flame war?
if you are so damn sensitive over the feelings of malaysians, you should shut down this defence forum to avoid any possible inflammation against our neighbours.
since our defence is most certainly geared towards defense against our neighbours just like most nation on earth LOGICALLY does.
or do you think SAF was built around the concept of fighting a faraway nation like PRC, EU, AUS, USA or perhaps argentina with a mere few LSD?
or maybe you think malaysian armed forces was built to fight on the moon?
why the hypocrasy? or did you change citizenship recently? -
paranoid? tell me... which weapons did malaysia bought from us? and which weapon did we buy from them?Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:Don't be like this lah pal.
you over paranoid man!
anyway, idwar is back...
i wanna hear what he has to say though.
Your really making a big fuss out of it..
most of our equipment are different... if we are truely gonna be fighting on one side... its sure very very odd to be operating very different systems.
and lastly.... paranoid? sorry chap... i am not a mind reader and i cant see the thoughts and hearts of men... that is why i lock my door at night before i go to sleep... that is also why every house has a door... because we are all paranoid.
if we believe that our neighbours will never attack us... why we bother to serve NS and burn our youth and continue to serve in reservist? eat too full, nothing else better to do isit?
tell me... which country in this world have house with no doors... because everyone trust their neighbours as much as themselves... or are we all paranoid?
do you lock your door at night? now... arent you paranoid... hahahahahaaa -
by the way centurion... is this a singapore forum or a malaysian forum?
you dont seem to mind trampling on singaporeans just to please malaysians... -
How many times must i tell you ?
Having a door means having a deterrent to prevent people from coming in..
NS is a deterrent...
F-15T is a detterent..
So what if our F-15T got compromised or something?
F-15T might not form the backbone of our airforce..
Rather its our F-16 Blk 52+ -
Paranoid:
1 : characterized by or resembling paranoia
2 : characterized by suspiciousness, persecutory trends, or megalomania
3 : extremely fearful
I don't see our nation's leaders behaving in this way though.
Dude, stop bashing them all because of a painful separation.....which is over 40 years ago..
Anyway, ive read all your previous topics..its always malaysian bashing -
i trample on both if they want to have a flame war here. don't like how i do things here? You can jolly well leave. Otherwise, just shuddup and discuss on things that has nothing to do with country vs country kind of threads.Originally posted by tripwire:by the way centurion... is this a singapore forum or a malaysian forum?
you dont seem to mind trampling on singaporeans just to please malaysians... -
wow...... i would like to know if there are other singaporeans with the same opinion as yours.... anyone?Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:So what if our F-15T got compromised or something?
F-15T might not form the backbone of our airforce..
Rather its our F-16 Blk 52+
you obviously dont care about the lives of your fellow singaporeans... especially those pilots that would be flying the F-15T as well as the soldiers and troops that would be under their protection.
one weak link in an armor... could spell your death...
perhaps i am paranoid.. but i think you are too candid about the security of singapore... but then again ... you might not be singaporean... are you? -
as far as i see.. this thread was aimed at boeing... and unfortunate as it may be... military and politics are at times indivisible..Originally posted by CenturionMBT:i trample on both if they want to have a flame war here. don't like how i do things here? You can jolly well leave. Otherwise, just shuddup and discuss on things that has nothing to do with country vs country kind of threads.
its good to moderate so that discussion can be focused and not degrade into a shouting war... but its another thing if moderation is carried to the extreme... when it became a form of censorship.
the sad thing is that this forum is now in public view and presumably would be under the monitoring of both SAF as well as MAF, so... in a sense its not too nice to be too anti malaysia.
or MAF might construed the posting here as the act of SAF to conjure anti-malaysia feeling...
of course.. i might be reading too much into the tea leaves... but then.. once you are a "public figure", you have to act more "civilised", right? -
nothing to do with maf, nothing to do with saf. but already there are malaysians who have tried to stirr up feelings with their postings here. And i have deleted a hell lot of them. And like wise, i will be equally heavy handed on singaporeans who tries to start a flame war here. besides if you want to nitpick with the malaysians, you can always do it else where. Not here.Originally posted by tripwire:as far as i see.. this thread was aimed at boeing... and unfortunate as it may be... military and politics are at times indivisible..
its good to moderate so that discussion can be focused and not degrade into a shouting war... but its another thing if moderation is carried to the extreme... when it became a form of censorship.
the sad thing is that this forum is now in public view and presumably would be under the monitoring of both SAF as well as MAF, so... in a sense its not too nice to be too anti malaysia.
or MAF might construed the posting here as the act of SAF to conjure anti-malaysia feeling...
of course.. i might be reading too much into the tea leaves... but then.. once you are a "public figure", you have to act more "civilised", right? -
Dude, this forum is tame compared to other military forums.Whatever is in the public domain is fair game.Originally posted by tripwire:wow...... i would like to know if there are other singaporeans with the same opinion as yours.... anyone?
you obviously dont care about the lives of your fellow singaporeans... especially those pilots that would be flying the F-15T as well as the soldiers and troops that would be under their protection.
one weak link in an armor... could spell your death...
perhaps i am paranoid.. but i think you are too candid about the security of singapore... but then again ... you might not be singaporean... are you? -
well... i think it depends on the mods here...
prior to our public exposure in the newspaper... we are like a free wheeling nightclub...
after the exposure... the feelings is more towards that of a high class restaurant... very quiet.
frankly... i understand its quite difficult to come to a consenses about the level of censorship, and it would be impossible to please everyone.
but in my opinion... excessive censorship could kill the forum... or like my teacher said about singapore sand, that it isnt naturally white... its been bleached white.
if i may add.... moderators are like blood coagulant that saves a forum from going out of control... but a flamer is like an anti-coagulant that keep the blood liquid, so that it can rush throw the forums artery and veins..
if you have excessive coagulant, the forum die... if you have excessive anti-coagulant... the forum would also die.
just my opinion.... i have left this forum quite some time now... i wonder what is everyone's opinion.... do we now have too much coaglant or too much anti-coagulant? -
LHL used to say:"we don't identify our enemies, they identify themselves."Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:They aren't our enemies anyway.
The Real enemy is not malaysia , but the people who purposely want to disrupt the peace
Who are our "real" enemies, against whom we all kenna 2 and a half years NS?? the people who occupied us for 2 n 1/2 yrs and killed 50,000 people? those from whom we were "painfully separated"? or the big country which just woke up ?? What do OUR history tell us? We should not live with heavy historical baggage but it would be stupid to ignore history as if it never happened!!
Who are those militaristic countries? how do we define militaristic countries? Without prejudice, statistics show that USA spend US$420 billion in its military budget, and japan, who is supposed to have only "self defence force" is spending 41.4 billion US$ on military expenses, while China, who is way behind in military technology but with a land size similar to US, is spending US$30 billion. Who is more militaristic?
Malaysia spend US 2 billion, protecting an area of 329,000 km2 while singapore spend US 6 billion, protecting 4 million people on an island of 637 km2. Even Israel's 10 billion, to protect a population of 6 million on an area of 20,000 km2, against all the arab nations, who are known enemies, become relatively small money compared to singapore military budget. Countries around us should be happy if we just do verbal bashing. Is Singapore militaristic?
While I do not dispute the necessity for the higher military budget, I believe we must not lose sight of the real threats to our nation, and plan our hardware purchases based on realistic assumptions. Otherwise some military enthusiasts may want to play around with the US theatre missiles defence system.
I also pay a lot of income tax, you know. -
In terms of defence dollars, the Singapore soil is the most expensively protected.I think we can safely assume that our threats are fluid, and the biggest threat to our survival is a nation that seeks to attack and be prejudicial to our national interest.Originally posted by sgdiehard:LHL used to say:"we don't identify our enemies, they identify themselves."
Who are our "real" enemies, against whom we all kenna 2 and a half years NS?? the people who occupied us for 2 n 1/2 yrs and killed 50,000 people? those from whom we were "painfully separated"? or the big country which just woke up ?? What do OUR history tell us? We should not live with heavy historical baggage but it would be stupid to ignore history as if it never happened!!
Who are those militaristic countries? how do we define militaristic countries? Without prejudice, statistics show that USA spend US$420 billion in its military budget, and japan, who is supposed to have only "self defence force" is spending 41.4 billion US$ on military expenses, while China, who is way behind in military technology but with a land size similar to US, is spending US$30 billion. Who is more militaristic?
Malaysia spend US 2 billion, protecting an area of 329,000 km2 while singapore spend US 6 billion, protecting 4 million people on an island of 637 km2. Even Israel's 10 billion, to protect a population of 6 million on an area of 20,000 km2, against all the arab nations, who are known enemies, become relatively small money compared to singapore military budget. Countries around us should be happy if we just do verbal bashing. Is Singapore militaristic?
While I do not dispute the necessity for the higher military budget, I believe we must not lose sight of the real threats to our nation, and plan our hardware purchases based on realistic assumptions. Otherwise some military enthusiasts may want to play around with the US theatre missiles defence system.
I also pay a lot of income tax, you know.
Ii is interesting to note that the nation which called us a barrier to her national interest and insensitive to her historical demands, was never really on our radar as a potential threat.I believe that when the shit hits the fan, our region will stand up for itself and not be political on the basis of race. -
You think i don't pay income tax?
I wonder what kind of job allows you to pay alot of income tax and yet..
kpkb in forums....
knn....i wonder what did the instructors teach you in NS ...
"Malaysia is your enemy! identify those troops and shoot them! ...
this is what kind of uniform malaysian troops wear , their scorpion vehicles..
their military platforms ...etc...etc.........
Seriously , your an extremist... -
It is almost impossible though...unless we got shared history like Switzerland which lasted over hundreds of years...even the Swiss has its own conflicts between catholics and protestants...Originally posted by LazerLordz:In terms of defence dollars, the Singapore soil is the most expensively protected.I think we can safely assume that our threats are fluid, and the biggest threat to our survival is a nation that seeks to attack and be prejudicial to our national interest.
Ii is interesting to note that the nation which called us a barrier to her national interest and insensitive to her historical demands, was never really on our radar as a potential threat.I believe that when the shit hits the fan, our region will stand up for itself and not be political on the basis of race.
Singapore only had a nation building of 40 years...Somehow its an impossible task to intergrate everyone together...
In Switzerland, there are over 63% Germans who make up the majority..and yet there can be peace and no racial riot...
1. French and Germany they got the almost the same religion ..
2. They have the same skin colour
3. Most of them can speak each other languages ..
French speak german, german can speak french
Not to mention they got their own cultures which are intermixed...
Chinese, Malay and Indian culture are very very different , if social integration needs to be done , more effort need to be placed in...
Not to mention all of them are extremely different in terms of skin colour, so..
i think there's still a very long way to go... -
Hahahaha..... those who kpkb in forums don't pay or pay little tax?? No, you don't have to know what job I do and how much I make. I am a Chinese Singaporean, making use of this forum to voice some of my views, thats all you need to know. If my view differs from yours then you need to accept that not all singaporean think the way you do.Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:You think i don't pay income tax?
I wonder what kind of job allows you to pay alot of income tax and yet..
kpkb in forums....
knn....i wonder what did the instructors teach you in NS ...
"Malaysia is your enemy! identify those troops and shoot them! ...
this is what kind of uniform malaysian troops wear , their scorpion vehicles..
their military platforms ...etc...etc.........
Seriously , your an extremist...
Did I mention Malaysia is our enemy??? In NS, my enemy is my enemy, my instructor didn't say it was Malaysia or anybody, but somehow the scenario always say that enemy coming from the north, well, Japan also attacked singapore from the north so the british guns pointing to the south ended up only use for tourists 50 years later. If China were to attack us in the future, they are likely to come from the north too.
How do you conclude that I am an extremist?? interesting..... -
yup.... its naive to think that our enemy is definitely so and so... its better to be all prepared for the very worst against all possible scenario... least we get our pants caught down.
anyway... back to the topic... i still feel that its unwise to buy the F-15T from boeing when boeing has so little vested interest in singapore...
thus... i think its far better to go for the rafael given the huge amount of beneficial terms the french are offering us.
we need america as a close friend... but we need EU as well... its not wise for us to be too close to US as it might alienate our friends in EU and Asia, given the fact that RAFAEL is nicer then the F-15T, though it does seems abit "light" class. -
You are talking some sense here.Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:It is almost impossible though...unless we got shared history like Switzerland which lasted over hundreds of years...even the Swiss has its own conflicts between catholics and protestants...
Singapore only had a nation building of 40 years...Somehow its an impossible task to intergrate everyone together...
In Switzerland, there are over 63% Germans who make up the majority..and yet there can be peace and no racial riot...
1. French and Germany they got the almost the same religion ..
2. They have the same skin colour
3. Most of them can speak each other languages ..
French speak german, german can speak french
Not to mention they got their own cultures which are intermixed...
Chinese, Malay and Indian culture are very very different , if social integration needs to be done , more effort need to be placed in...
Not to mention all of them are extremely different in terms of skin colour, so..
i think there's still a very long way to go...
Switzerland as an independent country existed since 1648 and today there are still German Swiss, Italian Swiss and French Swiss, which shows that they have not truely and fully integrated to become Swiss Swiss, even though they have the same skin colour, or is it because the French and the german got "almost the same religion"? but how is it that the protestants and the catholics are still fighting, generation after generation in Belfast??
The true spirit of nation building of Switzerland, as I understand, is that they take pride in their policy of neutrality, established since the congress of vienna, recognised by the power of europe and maintained since the congress in 1815. Swiss history saw many wars with French and Austrian, and later it stood firmly neutral even under the threat of the Germans in both WW. The loyalties of the Swiss German and Swiss French were important to Switzerland but the trust of the other races in the same country was even more crucial in maintaining the country as a whole. There took hundreds of years, many wars and a persistant vision of staying neutral, to achieve what they are today.
Singapore is only a 40 years old. Singaporean may have different skin colours, and different, or very different religion, but that is not be the most difficult problem. Question is, Do we have a common vision?? or the same definition of "national interest"?
We side with the Americans in its conquest of Iraq but are we sure our fellow muslim singaporean or even non muslims agree with what the americans are doing?
Some singaporeans are calling China a threat, but many singaporeans have to go to China in order to find jobs, and more chinese are settling in singapore as singaporean! How do they feel?
If china and america clash over taiwan, do we stand with the americans, because we firmly believe in what the american stands for, or because we view china a threat to our "national interest", or we side with the one who give us greater economic benefits?
We talk about greater social integration among the races, but some local singaporeans are openly expressing discomfort mixing with the new immigrants from India and china! Is that conducive in shaping a singaporean singaporean?
Our education system was designed to help all students learn at least two languages for greater social integration among different races, but many singaporean are migrating because they believe that english alone is good enough, and their children should not be penalized due to poor "other language". Are we all accepting that we should have chinese speaking malays, and indians speaking chinese...just like the Swiss French speaking German and the Swiss German speaking French, or all should speak english and english is enough?
We have a long way to go....and of course it is natural that we disagree, but there must be something we share in common, lets find out what this is. Singapore should not be just a place to do business, and our common interest should be more than just wanting to survive..... -
Not agreeing with your previous arguments and am not sure about "the huge amount of beneficial terms the french are offering us", but i fully agree we should not put all our eggs in one basket.Originally posted by tripwire:yup.... its naive to think that our enemy is definitely so and so... its better to be all prepared for the very worst against all possible scenario... least we get our pants caught down.
anyway... back to the topic... i still feel that its unwise to buy the F-15T from boeing when boeing has so little vested interest in singapore...
thus... i think its far better to go for the rafael given the huge amount of beneficial terms the french are offering us.
we need america as a close friend... but we need EU as well... its not wise for us to be too close to US as it might alienate our friends in EU and Asia, given the fact that RAFAEL is nicer then the F-15T, though it does seems abit "light" class.
Will it come a day, when we stand along side with Indonesia or somebody on international issue which the US does not approve, will we have our supplies from the US for all our F16 and F15 cut, rendering the whole RSAF ineffective? (Indonesia is under US embargo now. ) or forever we will have to say yes to the america. -
I think the concern over Boeing OHQ in MY is perhaps paranoid. Who knows, it could be set up just for their commercial products?
Also, bear in mind this point if SG bought Rafale, who's to say Dassault wouldn't one fine day set up an OHQ in MY? Then how? Sell all the Rafales and look for another plane?
I guess if you want to have 100% certainty of security, build ALL of SG's military equipment in-house, without even a component sourced from overseas. -
nope... the boeing malaysia sdn bhd is not purely for commercial buissness only... its also involved in military products...
that is why i was asking if anyone knew if the F-15T bid and future subsequent support service would be handled by boeing malaysia...
they are also a key supporter of a malaysia EW conference in 2004 held in KL.
and i quote from the CEO of boeing malaysia...
"The Boeing Company found this 'Electronic Warfare 2002 Conference' to very worthwhile, well organised and professionally worthwhile. Mr Gil Bredow, Boeing Electronic Warfare expert, St. Louis, Missouri, USA had the opportunity to meet and interact with many EW experts both in the government and private sector. The Boeing Company definitely plans on supporting and attending the next EW Conference and Exhibition scheduled to be held in 2004."
DON MORAN
Director, International Business Development
Boeing Aerospace (Malaysia) Sdn Bhd
why would a commercial product company be interested in electronic warfare? -
anyway... i am not being paranoid...
i just hope that RSAF would take into account the potential leak in intel if boeing malaysia is to be permitted to handle the bidding as well as subsequent service support for RSAF F-15T.
if RSAF wanna buy F-15T... i have no objection as long as there is sufficient safeguard against possible enemy HUMINT....
i still remember the time when SAF actually employed malaysian doctors to work in singapore army camps as MO... what a mess up....
just because SAF got a good repute does not mean it cannot mess up....
i hope that SAF would NEVER be that goondo again and lock all our front door but left the back door open for enemy intel... damn malu....