ST: Office Cadets make aim with paintball guns
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From ST today. I don't have ST online access. OCS cadets using M16 replicas that fire paintballs in training. OCS commander Col Ong said that if current paintbal trials were successful, it would be implemented wider in the SAF. There is more realism to the training and painful bruises from paintball impacts make the soldiers learn and react faster. On Sat, OCS arranged a shootout between Foxtrot Wing and 5 NS men. Sounds like fun!
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Read in da papers
Cool!
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The trial shooters are NSman volunteers from the other forum, militarynuts.com. We've organised a few excursions amongst ourselves already. Several others couldn't make it for the shootout as they had to work on Sat and one was Attend B (Home).
May 9, 2005
Officer cadets take aim with paintball guns
SAF trainees use M16 assault rifle lookalikes in training, as a result of suggestion by NSman, and all who use them say guns inject greater realism
By David Boey
Defence Correspondent
TRAINEES at the SAF's Officer Cadet School (OCS) these days should be prepared to get messy in the line of duty.
Since January, the school has been using paintball guns to train future Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) officers to dodge enemy gunfire on the urban battlefield.
Last December, the school received 100 of these rifles as part of a training experiment suggested to the Defence Ministry by a national serviceman.
The rifles look and feel just like M16 assault rifles that were once the standard SAF infantry rifle. The China-made replicas even faithfully reproduce all the features found on real M16s.
The pea-size paintballs may be small and leave the barrel at a mere 100m per second - eight times slower than a real bullet - but they still pack a wallop.
And make a mess.
Each paintball is a gelatin sphere containing orange, yellow or green liquid dye. When the guns are set to full automatic, they can spit out three balls per second.
And just like real weapons, soldiers have to change the rifle's magazine once 20 'bullets' have been fired.
In an interview on Saturday at the Safti Military Institute, OCS commander Colonel Ong Yu Lin said that if the trials are successful, paintball training could complement existing SAF exercises.
Current SAF exercises have blank ammunition and a small laser emitter attached to soldiers' weapons to simulate gunfire.
Small disc-like sensors attached to their helmets and uniforms register when they have been 'shot'.
But soldiers 'hit' by the laser do not experience the impact and stinging pain that accompanies a paintball strike.
Col Ong said paintball guns add a new dimension to combat training.
Not only do soldiers get splattered with paint if they are hit, but they are also forced to apply their battle drills properly or risk the painful prospect of being peppered with paintballs - each of which leaves a bruise the size of a 20-cent coin.
He credited Mindef's Innovation Office, which helps fund ideas suggested by SAF servicemen, for helping to introduce the scheme.
The suggestion came from Lieutenant (NS) Shawn Fernando.
Now an engineer at Singapore Technologies Aerospace, he raised the idea with his superiors during his full-time national service when he was an OCS cadet.
The Mindef committee was bowled over by the suggestion and approved funding for 100 rifles, paintball ammunition and spares.
Officer Cadet Chen Jianping, from Foxtrot Wing OCS, said: 'Paintballs simulate gunfire much better than blanks because the projectiles coming your way force you to take cover.'
His fellow cadet Dennis Chia added that the pain of being hit helps drive home the battle skills they learn in the classroom.
He said: 'It reminds you of what to do and what not to do in battle.'
To demonstrate the benefits of paintball training, OCS arranged a shootout on Saturday between cadets from Foxtrot Wing and five operationally ready NSmen - including this reporter - who had not tried paintball before.
The NSmen who tested the new rifles for the first time all agreed paintball would inject greater realism into training.
Corporal (NS) Yip Chee Keen, an NSman from an armour battalion, said: 'It's an excellent training tool. Your mindset totally changes. When training with blanks, soldiers tend to just go through the motions.'
Corporal (NS) Sean Chua, who was hit several times during the shootout, added: 'When using blanks for training, we tended to walk here and there. The situation totally changes in a paintball shootout. You run instead of walk. You actually look for cover to protect you from incoming projectiles.'
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more fun than blanks
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Frankly paintball guns will do more harm as a training weapon then good !!!
Why ?
The problem is you are training soldiers, to fight with paintball, which will instill in them a lot of very wrong concept !
You will indirect make the soldiers using mistake tactics which suit the short range of the paintball than real rifles. Also as enemy is also using limit range paintball, a lot of tactics use is totally wrong. What happen in real life, would some of these soldiers, alway think that they must use close up to shoot tactics, or would they be trained think at 200m they are totally out of range, as you know, here a lot of us can easily take out anyone at 300m with a head shot with a M16. That however will never happen in paintball, which the soldiers will be train not to be expect.
I still think laser is a better option as it have the range to simulate a more real environment.
Paintball should only be use for close quater combat training and not general military training. -
seriously, have you had anything to do with MILES or blanks before?Originally posted by storywolf:Frankly paintball guns will do more harm as a training weapon then good !!!
Why ?
The problem is you are training soldiers, to fight with paintball, which will instill in them a lot of very wrong concept !
You will indirect make the soldiers using mistake tactics which suit the short range of the paintball than real rifles. Also as enemy is also using limit range paintball, a lot of tactics use is totally wrong. What happen in real life, would some of these soldiers, alway think that they must use close up to shoot tactics, or would they be trained think at 200m they are totally out of range, as you know, here a lot of us can easily take out anyone at 300m with a head shot with a M16. That however will never happen in paintball, which the soldiers will be train not to be expect.
I still think laser is a better option as it have the range to simulate a more real environment.
Paintball should only be use for close quater combat training and not general military training. -
Legalising paintball gun is the best way!!! Help SAF to save money. We train ourselves. hehehe.... No need to restrain one stupid area.
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u can dodge the balls not bullets....
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Simunitions.
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it is use in Fibua. got read the story lah.Originally posted by storywolf:Frankly paintball guns will do more harm as a training weapon then good !!!
Why ?
The problem is you are training soldiers, to fight with paintball, which will instill in them a lot of very wrong concept !
You will indirect make the soldiers using mistake tactics which suit the short range of the paintball than real rifles. Also as enemy is also using limit range paintball, a lot of tactics use is totally wrong. What happen in real life, would some of these soldiers, alway think that they must use close up to shoot tactics, or would they be trained think at 200m they are totally out of range, as you know, here a lot of us can easily take out anyone at 300m with a head shot with a M16. That however will never happen in paintball, which the soldiers will be train not to be expect.
I still think laser is a better option as it have the range to simulate a more real environment.
Paintball should only be use for close quater combat training and not general military training. -
Tell me...are our current system of using the MILES and blanks workable?Originally posted by storywolf:Frankly paintball guns will do more harm as a training weapon then good !!!
Why ?
The problem is you are training soldiers, to fight with paintball, which will instill in them a lot of very wrong concept !
You will indirect make the soldiers using mistake tactics which suit the short range of the paintball than real rifles. Also as enemy is also using limit range paintball, a lot of tactics use is totally wrong. What happen in real life, would some of these soldiers, alway think that they must use close up to shoot tactics, or would they be trained think at 200m they are totally out of range, as you know, here a lot of us can easily take out anyone at 300m with a head shot with a M16. That however will never happen in paintball, which the soldiers will be train not to be expect.
I still think laser is a better option as it have the range to simulate a more real environment.
Paintball should only be use for close quater combat training and not general military training.
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No offense , but i think its stupid to send our precious troops into combat like this..just blow up the whole damned building..
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uh -huh.
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its okie if they send youOriginally posted by SMAPLionHeart:No offense , but i think its stupid to send our precious troops into combat like this..just blow up the whole damned building..
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the problem comes when u actually NEED TO KEEP THE BUILDING and SOME OF THE PEOPLE INSIDE, so that YOU CAN CAPTURE THEM ALIVE.Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:No offense , but i think its stupid to send our precious troops into combat like this..just blow up the whole damned building..
get the picture? -
same mistake germans made in Staligrad, blowing up the building makes it more difficult to clear enemy totally. Do you know how a building is imploded in all those videos done by professionals?? It takes weeks of preparatory work, planning, removing cladding, soft materials, weakening the interior walls (to prevent pockets) etc. Only in your dreams do you suggest blowing a building to remove the threat. Obviously U never done FIBUA.Originally posted by SMAPLionHeart:No offense , but i think its stupid to send our precious troops into combat like this..just blow up the whole damned building..
This I gotta to see, head shot at 300m!! man what kind of drugs are you on?? head shots more than 100m with scope, sniper rifle and lots of time to draw the bead is somthing only a sniper can achieve.Originally posted by storywolf:here a lot of us can easily take out anyone at 300m with a head shot with a M16.
If you have seen paper targets of hits at 300m (when we did butt parties for CTSS) you'd realize that most hits are anywhere but the head. 90% are within 10cm from edge of targets (much less within 20cm of Mean Point of Aim) -
from hereOriginally posted by baer:This I gotta to see, head shot at 300m!! man what kind of drugs are you on?? head shots more than 100m with scope, sniper rifle and lots of time to draw the bead is somthing only a sniper can achieve.
If you have seen paper targets of hits at 300m (when we did butt parties for CTSS) you'd realize that most hits are anywhere but the head. 90% are within 10cm from edge of targets (much less within 20cm of Mean Point of Aim)
http://sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=126431
how about at 200m??? well look like i am the oni 5% can... btw it oni the helmet and not with you whole head and the helmet was place on the ground where some can not even see where it was...
so can i say it lies with the shooter and not the weapon?
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Fett , is that a question of your intelligent ? because I frankly begin to wonder, as even 3mth BMT you get to play with blanks ! So if you don't even get to shoot blanks before, don't go around asking people if they had anything thing to do with miles or blanks , as it is kind of a idiot question !!!Originally posted by fett:seriously, have you had anything to do with MILES or blanks before?
by the way i did use miles and blanks before. -
Maybe the old miles system is not good enough, but with new technology , there is something out there that is good enough. Look if paintball is use to train swat team or special forces on close quarter combat that is one thing. But using it to train fibua for troops is another thing. In fibua, that make it idea for enemy troops to use sniper tactics & close quarter tactic together. If we train our soldiers using paintball, there is a high chance they will be drill and drill that engagement can only take place with 100m range only. That will cause more harm then good.Originally posted by deathscythe99:Tell me...are our current system of using the MILES and blanks workable?
Yes the old miles system may not be good enough, but I am sure there is better ones available now that at least can have better range simulation then the limited paintball range which reflect more realistic training and situation. -
Just because you cannot do it, does not mean other have to take drugs to do it. Also at 300m, a head size target is still clear enough to take aim.Originally posted by baer:This I gotta to see, head shot at 300m!! man what kind of drugs are you on?? head shots more than 100m with scope, sniper rifle and lots of time to draw the bead is somthing only a sniper can achieve.
If you have seen paper targets of hits at 300m (when we did butt parties for CTSS) you'd realize that most hits are anywhere but the head. 90% are within 10cm from edge of targets (much less within 20cm of Mean Point of Aim)
Of course in most range, everyone will not go for the head, as they will go for the chest, so that it can cater for small mistakes. You will know who the good shooter is and who can get head shots, by the consistent grouping of rounds in the center of the chest. Those are the ones, that can get head shot if they want to.
At 300m, with my zeroed m16, I can easily get head shots. Frankly a lot of others also can do it. We alway on the first day of range to new recruits, we alway put balloons at 300m and shoot them to demo that if you zeroed your M16 properly and learn to shoot correctly you can get a balloon which is a head size target even at 300m. Alway others and me alway is one shot one balloon. -
I hope more improvements could be made to paintball technology to let the sniper rifles come into playOriginally posted by storywolf:Maybe the old miles system is not good enough, but with new technology , there is something out there that is good enough. Look if paintball is use to train swat team or special forces on close quarter combat that is one thing. But using it to train fibua for troops is another thing. In fibua, that make it idea for enemy troops to use sniper tactics & close quarter tactic together. If we train our soldiers using paintball, there is a high chance they will be drill and drill that engagement can only take place with 100m range only. That will cause more harm then good.
Yes the old miles system may not be good enough, but I am sure there is better ones available now that at least can have better range simulation then the limited paintball range which reflect more realistic training and situation.
Or maybe...(just a thought) combine both?
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not during my time that blanks was used in BMT.Originally posted by storywolf:Fett , is that a question of your intelligent ? because I frankly begin to wonder, as even 3mth BMT you get to play with blanks ! So if you don't even get to shoot blanks before, don't go around asking people if they had anything thing to do with miles or blanks , as it is kind of a idiot question !!!
by the way i did use miles and blanks before.
Frankly, I don't really find MILES and blanks quite so effective.
When using MILES, concealment can become cover because some
leaves are blocking the laser receiver one is wearing. As for blanks,
we're always seeing people arguing who shot who first. Worst, most
trainees and NS men can't even be bother do proper fire and
movement drills.
I mean, if paintballs as part of a training tools, can at least get
trainees do get a better sense of a 'real shooting' environment, I don't
see why we should just condemn the system.
anyway, often i see thread here degenerating into name calling/pissing
contest. why can't we discuss things without 'idiot', fcukers' etc? -
Well I agree, if more improvement is made to paintball technology to let longer range into play so that section automatic weapons, machine guns or even longer range engagement can be simulated will be good, or even a combination of other technology will be good.Originally posted by deathscythe99:I hope more improvements could be made to paintball technology to let the sniper rifles come into play
Or maybe...(just a thought) combine both?
Like the fact that I brought up the issue of m16 if in a good shooter hand can get head shot at 300m, already there is people who question on it, what about the soldiers that been drill by paintball, which after 100m, they are totally safe even if they show full body. Possible with that type of incorrect drilling, some soldiers will be even having a conference out in open thinking that at 200m or 300m people cannot shoot at them ( still thinking they are up against paintball). -
I think paintball/airsoft/simunitions for Fibua trg is a sound idea. True, ppl might start discounting the threat of a sniper but then that's what instructors are there for.
"Right guys, gather here."
"CCB - YOU SQUAT IN THE OPEN! SQUAT SOME MORE! NB!"
Works pretty well i think! -
Please kindly refer to your question to me first before you make comments !!! you ask if I even use a blank before ? isn't that a very stupid & insulting thing to ask ! Talk about degenerating into name calling ! Don't ask respect when you shown other non !Originally posted by fett:not during my time that blanks was used in BMT.
Frankly, I don't really find MILES and blanks quite so effective.
When using MILES, concealment can become cover because some
leaves are blocking the laser receiver one is wearing. As for blanks,
we're always seeing people arguing who shot who first. Worst, most
trainees and NS men can't even be bother do proper fire and
movement drills.
I mean, if paintballs as part of a training tools, can at least get
trainees do get a better sense of a 'real shooting' environment, I don't
see why we should just condemn the system.
anyway, often i see thread here degenerating into name calling/pissing
contest. why can't we discuss things without 'idiot', fcukers' etc?