ST: Office Cadets make aim with paintball guns
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What I think would be good is to maybe have a combination (for now) of close range (e.g. assault rifles using paintball) and long range (e.g. sniper and MGs using MILES). This is because the technology has not improved to the standard which we envision to be.Originally posted by storywolf:Well I agree, if more improvement is made to paintball technology to let longer range into play so that section automatic weapons, machine guns or even longer range engagement can be simulated will be good, or even a combination of other technology will be good.
Like the fact that I brought up the issue of m16 if in a good shooter hand can get head shot at 300m, already there is people who question on it, what about the soldiers that been drill by paintball, which after 100m, they are totally safe even if they show full body. Possible with that type of incorrect drilling, some soldiers will be even having a conference out in open thinking that at 200m or 300m people cannot shoot at them ( still thinking they are up against paintball).
Although well, technically speaking, the MILES system for long range weapons do not serve that well, I guess it would be better to use MILES rather than paintball for a long-range weapon when we know that the paintball, for now, have yet to reach that range.
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as someone else said, simmunitions.
but in the absence of this, i guess RAMs [the guns they use, made by Classic Army, who make airsoft guns] are a cheap alternative.
as long as theyre restricted to CQB, then theyre fine.
they really should look at the alternatives to the paintball rounds.
these RAMs are also available with non-frangible rounds - like 11mm rubber balls etc - these are used in training by other units around the world.
better than paintballs imho, and as the gas [power] is adjustable, you can theoretically get some better ranges out of these guns with the higher ratings.
at stock theyre about 400fps which is not much better than airsoft.
[which RAMs have also been modified to fire as well]
i think rather than poo-poo-ing an idea, any and all suggestions should be looked at.
RAM's are just one option, modfied RAMs should be the next step.
and if they have the money, go for simmunitions. -
Well I do agree on what you say, but the problem is they are training the OCS cadets (future instructors) with paintball, who knows maybe drill drill drill, till they became only too familiar with paintball than real guns.Originally posted by lwflee:I think paintball/airsoft/simunitions for Fibua trg is a sound idea. True, ppl might start discounting the threat of a sniper but then that's what instructors are there for.
"Right guys, gather here."
"CCB - YOU SQUAT IN THE OPEN! SQUAT SOME MORE! NB!"
Works pretty well i think!
Than how ? after a few cycle most instructors are the paintball expert then real gun expert as they are drilled on constraint of paintgun !!! haha ,
"Why you so far shoot ? waste round right !@E#@# go till 50m then shoot then paintgun can get target !!! Move closer to engage, here shoot bird also will miss"..... just imagine the horror result is may trigger ......... -
i don't know you, so i think that's a valid question, right?Originally posted by storywolf:Please kindly refer to your question to me first before you make comments !!! you ask if I even use a blank before ? isn't that a very stupid & insulting thing to ask ! Talk about degenerating into name calling ! Don't ask respect when you shown other non !
if you decided to take it as an insult, well, it's your choice. -
Since you put it that way.Originally posted by fett:i don't know you, so i think that's a valid question, right?
if you decided to take it as an insult, well, it's your choice.
I do not know you too. So I too think questioning you on your intelligent is valid question too, because you seem to did not know that everyone here in BMT, also get to shoot blanks till frightened as need to clean rifle after that.
Or maybe you only think in the whole army you get to shoot blanks only, while others never even shoot one round of blanks , just open mouth and shout "bang bang" !!!
If you feel insulted because I question you ? than it was your choice. -
anything that can inject greater realism into training is good.
one thing for sure if a fire fight take place using these paintball gun or whatever, the HQ staff ie CO, S2, S3 and all the signaller etc will more likely to take cover than to stand around... these are the groups of ppl who always given the wrong sign to the man who is taking cover.
another good example of these group of ppl giving wrong sign to the man is after capture of objective... they oso like to stand around as if war over (ex cut). can be seem many a time during ATEC... LOL. ended enemy reinforcement crip in and HQ over run... geee... how many CO was "KILLED"... i lost count. -
Being part of this project since the idea was mooted late last year, I am happy to tell you that training with the M-16 paintball guns have increased the training effectiveness full circle in some ways.
Note that now when you are "shot" you will feel a sharp sting on you, a brusing will happen. This will make the operator more aware of the body parts that will be very likely be targeted during FIBUA or CQB. When they notice and feel the hit, they learn never to make that mistake again.
Also, the main stumbling block noticed when this excercise was conducted, the team leader and operators were overcome with fear and so fixtated with the target that the whole ops went out of the window. From intel planning, to execution, to leadership when under fire had to be rethinked when the rounds start flying. Imagine a simple 20mins ops window, extended into a 45mins gun fight, thats failure. And because of this, doctrines have to be reconsidered as the variables have changed. Doctrines of yore, were outdated and based loosely on 2nd hand experience.
All that I am say it this, the programme is still new. Leadership and operators are using this to hone their skills, technical and tactical. And they are really pushing the envelope for perfection. Even simple drills like reloading, and clearing your weapon while taking fire needs to be addressed, why? Because fear takes control. At this time, I have noticed at all students have placed their firm priority in their training and not just going thru the motions as before. I have faith in this new system, it may not be the best out there, but give the moot team credit as they pushed hard for this sytem to be in place. As some day, when you fight in apartment blocks and clear staircases, you have this paintball system to thank and save your live. You are what you train, and you train as you are willing to fight, and the more you sweat and bleed when you train, the less you suffer in a gun fight.
No gung ho bullshit here, just guts and a cool head. -
i agree paintball is better than exisiting system
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the main purpose of Fibua is to let soldiers learn the tactics of fighting in a built-up enviroment. BN live firing will let them get a feel of the range and effectiveness of live roundsOriginally posted by storywolf:Well I agree, if more improvement is made to paintball technology to let longer range into play so that section automatic weapons, machine guns or even longer range engagement can be simulated will be good, or even a combination of other technology will be good.
Like the fact that I brought up the issue of m16 if in a good shooter hand can get head shot at 300m, already there is people who question on it, what about the soldiers that been drill by paintball, which after 100m, they are totally safe even if they show full body. Possible with that type of incorrect drilling, some soldiers will be even having a conference out in open thinking that at 200m or 300m people cannot shoot at them ( still thinking they are up against paintball). -
this just cross my mind...
CROSS FIRE!!!
using of paintball gun not oni will we see "guys" pay more attention to the ground situation, surrounding etc.... we will oso see who is the one that trigger-happy, going around cross fire...
Coy Comd horlaned and bring the coy into friendly killing zone... Drills are not well pratice causing man get shoot from behind by platoon mate. At FUP, miss fire causing KIA to own ppl and give away positions...
anyway it oni for FIBUA, and oni 100pc, hope it will get fully expand to othe field ex.
other than the range and the rate of fire is not on par to the real gun... with the simlab in play as well, most of the things we will get to see are as real as it can get. -
hahaa... couldn't agree more!Originally posted by Joshua1975:anything that can inject greater realism into training is good.
one thing for sure if a fire fight take place using these paintball gun or whatever, the HQ staff ie CO, S2, S3 and all the signaller etc will more likely to take cover than to stand around... these are the groups of ppl who always given the wrong sign to the man who is taking cover.
another good example of these group of ppl giving wrong sign to the man is after capture of objective... they oso like to stand around as if war over (ex cut). can be seem many a time during ATEC... LOL. ended enemy reinforcement crip in and HQ over run... geee... how many CO was "KILLED"... i lost count.
imagine whole BN at file formation taking cover by side of road at start line...
meanwhile, those "S-club" ppl walking balonglong in the middle of the road and kpkb to their runners -
i think they dun have paint ball for the MG
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Right now, as we speak... a small development team will work on expanding the current Paintball gun system to have more NATO small arms replicated. So till then, will keep pushing for perfection in all quarters.
As some of the posts have suggested, MILES and other "established" training aids do provide some form of training purpose, as well as paintball. This system mainly focus on the skills and reactions that are required to see the mission gets done right, and safe handling of arms in confined spaces and around blind corners. As some of you who have done BUA fighting, know damn well, that friendly fire is the main problem for attacking troops, and failure to command and control your fire movements and troops to secure the objectives.
Frankly, when the ops order for BUA has been delivered to the attacking troops, the intel situation will change and the foilage surrounding the objective becomes "hot" too. Thus it is important for the mission leader or commander to see beyond the main target and expand his mission scope to ensure all is taken care of. Commands and clear signals form the basis for success.
Any one who has done ambush raids, intel ops, snatch ops, or any specialized small patrol ops will surely understand the greater need to get the fire movement and C&C right. In this aspect, paintball comes into play, telling the aggressor, and operators where you have made mistakes, and by looking at the shots on the buildings and bodies, you will know whats expected, and need to be worked upon.
A far greater need for the operators to work on is the need to shoot instinctively, aim faster, engage the aggressor and make the shot. Far too many times, the students are shot, because they are just reluctant to fire until they see a sure shot, which makes their movents very slow and expose their positions. Sharpening shooting skills, weapon handling, "Shoot and scoot" drills are just some of the technical skills the students did take note during their BUA ops. -
pain..........pls dun, i have seen simunitions wound before, not your standard 20cent size bruiseOriginally posted by palmerised:Simunitions.
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RAM's are already made in the form of M4 variant, M16 variant, MP5 variant and Glock.
Classic Army , who manufacture the receivers, based it on the same models as they do for Airsoft.
They produce M4, M16 and MP5 variants.
They also produce G3 parts, though have never produced the whole gun, just [upper/lower] receiver, cocking tubes, stock, etc.
They are releasing their version of the M249 SAW.
[Look out for a review in the new international Airsoft magazine Airsoft Impact - sort of like ARMS but in English and no girly pics]
So given the G3 and forthcoming M249, there may yet be an opportunity to see RAM variants of these weapons.
no other RAM types are around afaik. -
If I had money to spend on this, I'd rather spend it on stuff like air-cond enhanced mobility powered suits rather than on air powered rifles. After all, those who went through uni (esp those mech engineering trained) should have
A while ago, there was such a (non-working) display concept of something like that in the Army 3G exhibition awhile ago.
There are too many old, fat and handsome reservists running around singapore. Most of them can't follow NSFs on a mountain hook.. -
you want gudam also ?Originally posted by RussianPower:If I had money to spend on this, I'd rather spend it on stuff like air-cond enhanced mobility powered suits rather than on air powered rifles. After all, those who went through uni (esp those mech engineering trained) should have
A while ago, there was such a (non-working) display concept of something like that in the Army 3G exhibition awhile ago.
There are too many old, fat and handsome reservists running around singapore. Most of them can't follow NSFs on a mountain hook.. -
Well, in yesterday's ST, Japan came out with a working exo-skeleton prototype, which lets the wearer carry 40kg more than what he could normally carry.Originally posted by crazy monkey:you want gudam also ? -
Instead of Japan, shouldn't we be the ones doing the cutting edge research/engineering here? We need these more than anyone else in the world..Originally posted by LazerLordz:Well, in yesterday's ST, Japan came out with a working exo-skeleton prototype, which lets the wearer carry 40kg more than what he could normally carry.
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ya we need nuke bombs also how much is russia selling for each of them ?Originally posted by RussianPower:Instead of Japan, shouldn't we be the ones doing the cutting edge research/engineering here? We need these more than anyone else in the world..
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well lets try this on for size the united states marines/navy seals/delta force/rangers use paintballs for trainings but the only difference is their guns fire at a speed of 700fps to a range of 300m unlike the singapore one which only fires at 290fps and a range of 150m so if saf upgrades them to the one united states is using it will be as gd look how well they shoot
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duh!Originally posted by alienxxx:well lets try this on for size the united states marines/navy seals/delta force/rangers use paintballs for trainings but the only difference is their guns fire at a speed of 700fps to a range of 300m unlike the singapore one which only fires at 290fps and a range of 150m so if saf upgrades them to the one united states is using it will be as gd look how well they shoot
They use simmunitions - utilising modified real firearms, not real action markers!
[identifiable by the blue barrels these weapons are issued with]
and if you'd read anything, you'd know that the RAM's themselves can ship out at something like 400fps and then can be adjusted.