Can SAR 21 replace M16 in US Army?
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US is calling for proposals to replace M16.See
US ARMY TACOM-Picatinny's solicitation,Procurement Network
http://procnet.pica.army.mil/dbi/DynCBD/solicitation.cfm
Post 11 May 2005
W15QKN-05-R-0449
FedBizOpps notice Date: 2005-03-04
Subject:10--Objective Individual Combat Weapon, Increment One, Family of Weapons(Note by poster,not XM 29)
Description:
Pre-Solicitation Notice for the Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW) Increment I family of weapons
Solicitation No. W15QKN-05-R-0449
The U.S. Army ARDEC, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ 07806-5000, on behalf of the Program Manager for Soldier Weapons (PM-SW), has a requirement for a non developmental family of weapons that are capable of firing U.S. standard M855 and M856 ammunition. The family consists of a Carbine, Special
ompact (SC), Designated Marksman (DM), and Light Machine Gun (LMG) weapon systems. This endeavor will be conducted in three phases consisting of a System Design and Development
(SDD) Phase, a Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP) Phase and a Full Rate Production (FRP) Phase.
The Carbine, SC and DM weapon systems shall share at least 80% parts
commonality and shall share at least 50% commonality with the LMG. Each weapon
system shall be equipped with a Multi Purpose Sighting System (MPSS) enabling
the warfighter to rapidly and effectively engage stationary and moving targets
both with reflexive fire at close ranges, and with precision fire out to the
maximum effective range of the variant (Carbine-500m, SC-150m, DM-600m, LMG-
600m). All OICW Increment I weapon systems shall incorporate a resident
limited visibility fire control with infrared aim light, illuminator and
visible red laser pointer. The infrared aiming light and illuminator shall be greater than, or equal to the capability of the AN/PEQ-2A.
A properly zeroed OICW Increment I Carbine (zeroed to 300 meters), SC (zeroed
to 150 meters), DM (zeroed to 300 and 500 meters), or LMG (zeroed to 300
meters) shall enable a warfighter firing from varying fighting positions, both
supported and unsupported to engage E-type silhouettes under conditions that
include target exposure times from 3 to 8 seconds and targets moving 2 to 4
meters per second to the following metrics: Carbine (moving targets to 300m)
with a Probability of Hit greater than .60 at 150m; SC (moving and stationary
targets) with a Probability of Hit greater than .40 at 100m; DM (stationary
targets, zeroed to 500m) with a Probability of Hit greater than .50 at 500m;
LMG (Hit on first 6-round burst against a single E-type silhouette in an 8
target array, zeroed to 300m) with a Probability of Hit greater than .04 at
600m.
The OICW Increment I Carbine, SC and DM shall demonstrate 18,000 Mean Rounds
Between Essential Function Failure (MRBEFF) for Class III malfunctions (i.e.,
for non-operator correctable malfunctions which cause the loss of essential OICW Increment I functionality) and 2,300 MRBEFF for Class I and II malfunctions combined (Class I malfunctions are operator clearable within 10
seconds, whereas Class II malfunctions require more than 10 seconds but less than 10 minutes to clear but can be corrected by the operator with available equipment). The OICW Increment I LMG shall demonstrate 18,000 MRBEFF for Class
III malfunctions and 1,900 MRBEFF for Class I and II malfunctions combined
The OICW Increment I Carbine, SC, DM weapon systems shall have a sustained rate
of fire greater than or equal to 45 rounds per minute without degrading
reliability. The OICW Increment I LMG weapon system�s sustained rate of fire
shall be at a minimum of 72 rounds per minute for ten minutes without degrading reliability and accuracy.
All OICW Increment I weapon systems shall have a minimum barrel life of 15,000 rounds.
All Proposals will include written submissions and test (bid) samples, both of
will be 60 days after Solicitation release. A pre-solicitation or a pre-
proposal conference will be conducted at a later date (to be determined).
The offeror shall submit four (4) of each variant for a total of sixteen (16) complete weapon systems, along with sufficient spare parts, to the Government
for bid sample testing no later than the closing date of the solicitation.
Should an offeror�s bid samples pass through the initial and subsequent go/no go screening criteria, the samples will be evaluated with live fire to
demonstrate the weapon systems� ability to meet the system requirements.
The winning offeror will be awarded a contract for test quantities to proceed to a Milestone C decision, if required. After satisfying the requirements for a Milestone C decision, Low Rate Initial Production (LRIP) quantities (up to 4,900 weapon systems) shall be produced. Subsequent to the production of LRIP quantities, the Government may award multiple Full Rate Production (FRP) options to the winning offeror (up to 134,500 total weapon systems if the total number of options are exercised).
The OICW Increment I family of weapons is intended to replace current weapon systems to include the M4, M16, M249 and selected M9 pistols for the active army.
A Request for Proposal (RFP) to be posted on the TACOM-ARDEC Acquisition Center website located at: http://procnet.pica.army.mil is planned for release on or about 23 March 2005. Proposals, along with sixteen (16) bid samples, are required to be delivered within sixty (60) days from the date the RFP is released. Point of contact for this requirement is Mr. David DeCandia, Contract Specialist, AMSTA-AQ-APD, BLDG 10, Picatinny Arsenal, NJ 07806-5000, email: [email protected], telephone number: 973-724-4674. END OF QUOTE
Pl see http://www.emessell.typepad.com
for comments and the story for M16 secret replacement.
2.Can SAR 21 meet the minimun requirement oF the above TACOM-Picatinny ?
You guys as a old users can tell me somethings not classified?
XM 8 & HK416 are good.
As a Singaporean,you will be laughing if I ask the mighty US to consider the SAR 21--Singapore Assualt Rifle 21--to replace M16.But,pl read:
www.janes.com/regional_news/asia_pacific/news/idr/idr000531_1_n.shtml
by Charles Q Cutshaw .
2.SAR 21 has:
Intergrated laser hidden and protected inside the
handguard.No x'mas tree like attachment.
1.5 times sights inside the handle,factory zeroed.
very light recoil.
Produced in 1999 and field tested,and passed.
3.I tried it out few years ago and the recoil was very low.It was reported that even ladies could hit with high rate when they fired first rifle in their life.
4.pl see
http://www.stengg.com/CoyCapPro/detail.aspx?pdid=133.
5.Never mind it come from a red dot country(u can't find in map),but it can save GI's life.
6.Vision Technologies,A ST co., in US is selling Spore weapons
etc.
I think some of your civilian shooters have tried SAR 21.Ask them.
7.The laser sight 1.5 time is part of the handle for GI to carry the rifle when they walk or run for their life.The handle is very convenient.Also,the sling can be changed for combat mode in no time.
8.Wishing GI will get a real rifle to protect their life.
The attached sight and laser etc on XM8 and HK 416 will create problems,especially inside jungle ,brush etc.Why the builder could not intergrated them inside the rifle body,like Singapore Assualt Rifle 21?The 1.5 optics is inside the handle and laser inside the hand gurad.You may say what if soldier want to change them due to other requirement or the equipment damaged?You are right.But there is no perfect answer.Shall we cater for GI for a smooth actions inside jungle or we cater for the change which may not be so often?
9.http://www.mindef.sg/army/infantry_weapons_sar21.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAR-21
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as31-e.htm
Does the SAR 21 look better,outline so smooth,less chance to catch vegetation inside jungle.It will absorb better shock during actions for the round body.Other two have so many sharp angles,esp the sights which will easily be dameged due to the
position.Ask http://www.vt-systems.com/land_weapons.asp
to know more.
10.Military rifles is for fighting in tough situation,not used by softly spoken gentlemen or ladies to shoot in high class country club or for shooting movie.They must be designed to such situation.How can a big sight attachment to such rifle.The GI will find the rifle not balance and has to balancre it,affecting the aiming. -
Unlikely, most like Xm8 or SCAR
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yea our SAR21 might be good but politics-wise it's a whole new ball gameOriginally posted by Joe Black:Unlikely, most like Xm8 or SCAR
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Yes, this can be seen in the past acquisition on the Stryker instead of our special Bionix version. Although,it is debatable that our Bionix is superior to the Stryker due to lack of actual combat experience but there are some clear advantages such as being more capable in handling the additional weight of extra armour. The US will most likely choose a local design to create jobs in their own country even if the design is less capable. This is one of the bad points of real democracies.
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the LAD is attached with only 1 allan screw and comes loose easily during firing, even if tightened to the specified torque. when it comes loose, being 'protected' isn't going to help you very much in the field.
personally i think they should've used 2 rivets. -
The US Army is known to dislike the Bullpup design. They most likely go with XM8 :
ref: www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m8-oicw.htm
or the SCAR:
ref: http://world.guns.ru/assault/as70-e.htm[/url] -
wa .... the weapon seem so cool ....
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Anyone know what is so special about the XM8?
Looks just like a G36 in a new casing so the US Military can say its a domestic design. Doesn't seem like a huge improvement over the M16, just that it is using a gas-piston system instead of direct gas system, slightly more reliable. There are AR15 uppers which uses gas-pistons, just slap one on a M16 and done a brand new weapon, cheaper too.
As for the chances of the SAR-21 ever being used by the US Military would be close to zero. If it ain't Made In USA they ain't gonna want it. Simply Politics.
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Which is why SIG Sauer and Heckler & Koch have US subisdiaries, so that they can claim locally made status..as in SIGARMS Inc and H&K US.Originally posted by Raptor937:Anyone know what is so special about the XM8?
Looks just like a G36 in a new casing so the US Military can say its a domestic design. Doesn't seem like a huge improvement over the M16, just that it is using a gas-piston system instead of direct gas system, slightly more reliable. There are AR15 uppers which uses gas-pistons, just slap one on a M16 and done a brand new weapon, cheaper too.
As for the chances of the SAR-21 ever being used by the US Military would be close to zero. If it ain't Made In USA they ain't gonna want it. Simply Politics. -
Ya, i've read that the G36 is based off the xm8. Dunno how true though.Originally posted by Raptor937:Anyone know what is so special about the XM8?
Looks just like a G36 in a new casing so the US Military can say its a domestic design. Doesn't seem like a huge improvement over the M16, just that it is using a gas-piston system instead of direct gas system, slightly more reliable. There are AR15 uppers which uses gas-pistons, just slap one on a M16 and done a brand new weapon, cheaper too.
As for the chances of the SAR-21 ever being used by the US Military would be close to zero. If it ain't Made In USA they ain't gonna want it. Simply Politics. -
it's the other way roundOriginally posted by lwflee:Ya, i've read that the G36 is based off the xm8. Dunno how true though.
And the XM8 was suppose to be the PDW for some other weapon. -
FYI, a subsidiary of STK opened up in United States....
their aim is to market the SAR 21 into the US law enforcement market.
last i know..they are selling it for US$1400. -
Heard the Virginia or North Carolina Police Department did a trial for the SAR 21.Originally posted by Ponders:FYI, a subsidiary of STK opened up in United States....
their aim is to market the SAR 21 into the US law enforcement market.
last i know..they are selling it for US$1400. -
No and will not in any near future...
XM8 or whatever was intend to replace M16 was never going to happen. it had been sometime news like this are going on, replacing the M16...
Most likely M16A4 will as it had done so for the USMC in 2004.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20040306-9999-news_1n6rifles.html
anyway, some had mention what if need to replace the sight in field, how to when it fix on for good.
talking about SAF, i had see so many problems a solder can come up with simple aiming with iron sight and for those with telescopic sight or the SAR21 sight, anyone can tell me what problems the man come up with???
they say cannot see anything in it... WTF
next the LAD, i had mention in here a few time that is man turn on LAD before even a fire fight broke off and for that, "they" give away the position.
question: do the round hit where the LAD point or lay on?
answer: logically yes. technically no.
how many of you know? -
Ask lazerlord. He was an ammo tech i think.
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Hmm - would that be be OICW?Originally posted by |-|05|:it's the other way round
And the XM8 was suppose to be the PDW for some other weapon. -
there is this thing call TRAJECTORY.
LAD is just one straight line, it does not react or act like the rounds do. -
it's supposed to be for helping you spot your aim at night. coz the crosshairs on your scope are black.
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and yet laser sights are still used, aren't they?Originally posted by Joshua1975:there is this thing call TRAJECTORY.
LAD is just one straight line, it does not react or act like the rounds do.
nobody is suggesting you aim exclusively with the laser sight and expect your round to land on the precise spot your laser is. but its enough for a rough idea of whether your round will hit nor not - even taking into account the trajectory of the round, its still going to land within a, say, 10cm radius, depending on range. let's be realistic and assume we aren't talking extreme ranges - or in fact anything above a 100+ or so metres. keep in mind also we aren't talking about a headshot - a 10cm radius will still give you a hit on the body. -
The last I heard about the xm-8 is that it did not fair well during its test run in the fields. Also, the U.S Army has put a hold on their replacement of rifle due to new requirements. They might start a new round of selection of rifle again but thats unconfirm yet.
Yup, its true that some SWAT teams are trying out the SAR-21 & though there are some problems as you guys have pointed out, overall review was that most of the SWAT officers prefer the SAR-21 to the M-4 when carrying out CQC. They like the fact that its also using 5.56 ammo, the weapon being compact, etc. As for whether it'll become part of the SWAT teams armoury that depends on the individual county SWAT teams' fundings, etc. -
Originally posted by quivalen:and yet laser sights are still used, aren't they?
nobody is suggesting you aim exclusively with the laser sight and expect your round to land on the precise spot your laser is. but its enough for a rough idea of whether your round will hit nor not - even taking into account the trajectory of the round, its still going to land within a, say, 10cm radius, depending on range. let's be realistic and assume we aren't talking extreme ranges - or in fact anything above a 100+ or so metres. keep in mind also we aren't talking about a headshot - a 10cm radius will still give you a hit on the body.
dun tell me that tell that to the soldier that are using it now. tell that to those who are conducting the lesson now in school.
LAD alignment max are done at 100m, most of the time will be oni at 25m. if soldier dun know about what trajectory is... hummm try just shooting anything that is 200m and more with 25m alignment. see will the round land on where the point is. with LAD, you are to get a kill with all your shot and not any wounded and worst a miss.
for alignment done at 25m, and target at 200m, the point you lay on chest will not get a hit at all. it will be a miss for sure.
LAD are good for BUA but for conventional... it boils down to each soldier skill.
as i feel, SAF can have the best "toys" but it still the "player" who can make full used of it count.
btw pleace read all i had put up in here. -
I want fine tune my post.
Just consider fr technical point of view
1.Pl just evaluate if SAR 21 can match the TRACOM of US army 's requirement as a whole.Just see from technical point of views.Ignore other factors,such as US sure will not adopt for national pride,ColtIndustries lobbyists, etc.
No rifle is perfect,A will better than B in certain aspects,same as B.
Give your rating if u know SAR 21.
2.If it is fully match,give 100.If it exceed sat 10%,give 110.If only match 70%,say 70 lah.U can send private message to me.
How to compare with XM8
3.This clip can help u to compare.FOX News Tuesday, August 10, 2004
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,128512,00.html -
Originally posted by lionnoisy:
lets look at it from a pratical point of view. have you use the weapons before ?
I want fine tune my post.
Just consider fr technical point of view
1.Pl just evaluate if SAR 21 can match the TRACOM of US army 's requirement as a whole.Just see from technical point of views.Ignore other factors,such as US sure will not adopt for national pride,ColtIndustries lobbyists, etc.
No rifle is perfect,A will better than B in certain aspects,same as B.
Give your rating if u know SAR 21.
2.If it is fully match,give 100.If it exceed sat 10%,give 110.If only match 70%,say 70 lah.U can send private message to me.
How to compare with XM8
3.This clip can help u to compare.FOX News Tuesday, August 10, 2004
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,128512,00.html[b][/b] -
the topic at hand is the merits of the sar21 vs the m16; or to be more specific, the desirability of the laser sight. just because some soldiers don't know how to use it effectively doesn't mean it isn't useful.Originally posted by Joshua1975:
dun tell me that tell that to the soldier that are using it now. tell that to those who are conducting the lesson now in school.
no arguments there - thats what i said, too.
LAD alignment max are done at 100m, most of the time will be oni at 25m. if soldier dun know about what trajectory is... hummm try just shooting anything that is 200m and more with 25m alignment. see will the round land on where the point is. with LAD, you are to get a kill with all your shot and not any wounded and worst a miss.
for alignment done at 25m, and target at 200m, the point you lay on chest will not get a hit at all. it will be a miss for sure.[/quote]
like i said, let's be realistic when discussing range. the sar21 is more likely to be used in either BUA or close terrain - ranges of 200m or more aren't going to be too common.
LAD are good for BUA but for conventional... it boils down to each soldier skill.
as i feel, SAF can have the best "toys" but it still the "player" who can make full used of it count.
[quote]
btw pleace read all i had put up in here.
in your other post under this topic you only bring up the case of soldiers misusing the LAD - like i said in my first para, that doesn't make the LAD any less useful. its a problem easily rectified, anyway. -
crazy monkey:I only shot total 20 rounds? in Army
Open house.I am a 95% layman lah.Pl give ur valuable info to share.
See XM 8 is firing.
See clip http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,128512,00.html
10Aug 2004 fr FOX NEWS.Pl wait 2 mins to down load and another clip.
Pl share other 2 weapons ,50 cal remote and rifle shot 2000m.