Can SAR 21 replace M16 in US Army?
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Sorry..me no ammo junkie..me armt junkie.Originally posted by lwflee:Ask lazerlord. He was an ammo tech i think.
Anyway, before we can even convince the US Army to adopt the SAR21, even in field trials, ST must really convince our local operators that they can solve three main issues.
First issue, the scope fogging problem.This is very intriguing because scopes have fogged up, been replaced with new ones, and yet the same problem occurs time and time again, often within months.An Infantryman cannot be told his weapon cannot even take moisture or water occasionally, and the downtime caused by this problem is pretty bad.
Second issue, the LAD.Granted, it is integrated and poses less chance of this item falling off due to vibration from intense firing, however, in-field replacement is a pain and nightmare.You cannot do such a replacement in battle, and to take this weapon and send it back to rear lines is something that cannot be allowed in battle.
If you have detachable ACOG or Trijcon sights or floating red-dot reflex(which incidentally is better than a visible laser) on your MIL 1913 rail, repair or maintenance issue will be much easier and roving maintenance teams can reach the frontlines and find that they do make a difference.
Third issue is the magazine release catch.This is a niggling design flaw that operators have often feedback to DSTA that it poses a barrier to combat reloading.And seconds are lost when you have to transfer one hand to steady the gun while the other depresses the button to release the magazine and viceversa to load a fresh magazine.
These issues aside, the great thing going for the SAR21 is the center of gravity.I do not know if these flaws will be addressed for the next batch of rifles.However, I had the chance to handle the SAR21 MMS Rail version at Asian Aerospace last year and this enhanced model, though vastly heavier, seems like a better compromise.
I do know that STK has offered a version of the SAR21 with no LAD,but with a front grip.This version was used by the SAF peacekeepers in Timor Leste.Another export version has the MIL 1913 rail on the upper handguard.Perhaps these might stand a chance in the US market, however I thnk they would have solved the three issues before they decide to enter into the fray. -
Yes I do think that the SAR21 is better as a MOUT rifle.Has the range and the punch for short range and medium range urban warfighting.Originally posted by quivalen:like i said, let's be realistic when discussing range. the sar21 is more likely to be used in either BUA or close terrain - ranges of 200m or more aren't going to be too common. -
i still prefer the M16
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I prefer this SSW --Squad Support Weapon.Made in Spore lah.
http://www.stengg.com/CoyCapPro/detail.aspx?pdid=218SSW is the only infantry weapon developed in Asia with a Fire Control System (FCS) that fires next generation programmable ammunition like the 40mm Air Bursting Munition (ABM) directly from a handheld system. Weighing only 6kg with a full load 4 x 40mm rounds and 20 x 5.7mm rounds
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It was said that MINIMI M249 took 15 years from concept to full production.
ULTIMAX TOOK 3 YEARS TO full productions.
2.Why US has not improved M16 for so long and not improved partly,like
just change the sight to 1.5 optics sight? -
please seach on M16A4 and maybe you can find the answer for ques 2.Originally posted by lionnoisy:It was said that MINIMI M249 took 15 years from concept to full production.
ULTIMAX TOOK 3 YEARS TO full productions.
2.Why US has not improved M16 for so long and not improved partly,like
just change the sight to 1.5 optics sight?
a perm fix on optics sight... well some in here had say the fog up problem with SAR21 and the repleacement things. -
all i know is that this is the aftermath of a .50cal bullet hitting the head.....
http://www.ogrish.com/archives/iraqi_insurgent_taken_out_by_50_cal_sniper_May_27_2005.html[/img] -
I've handled a Steyr bullpup before and changing mags is a pain - as with all bullpups.
I don't like optics for though it allows even bobo kings to shoot with relative accuracy, it does slow down target acquisition and limits your awareness of the surroundings as you aim down the tunnel.
And as I suspected already, the scope has fogging problems. People who wear glasses or have simply used a pair of binoculars will know that optics are not the best thing to have in a humid environment like ours.
Therefore, the SAR-21 must also have a very good pair of open metal sights.
The SAR-21 is too heavy. The LAD is more likely to give your position away and give your enemy something to aim at.
Finally, the SAR-21 has no lug for bayonet attachment.
While the press tells us that the SAR-21 had received good comments from abroad, I think most people will wait for the Mk 2. -
Papua New Guinea: Dealer Admits Importing Guns
fr http://www.pacificislands.cc/pina/pinadefault2.php?urlpinaid=15572
Thursday: June 2, 2005
MEL Management Services, a nationally-owned gun and ammunition dealer, has admitted importing the three SAR-21 high powered firearms which were confiscated as they entered the country. .....
Mel manager Fintic argued that the arms were ordered for the Police Department for a 12 months trial with the 5,000 rounds of ammunition given to police for free.
What are the purposes of importing SAR 21 and 5000 5.56 ammo? -
Well...as with all laser sights,they are sighted in for specific ranges.A LAD on any weapon zeroed for a range of 100m will hit at exactly the point of aim at 100m,but if you wanna hit further,you gotta aim off (ie.aim higher)or if you wanna hit lower you gotta aim lower to acheive the hit.
Besides...the really really big turn offs about the SAR21 is that the magazine release and changing of a new magazine is really really clumsy and also,the positioning of the selector switch is really stupid.At the butt of the weapon...my goodness!!! perhaps should incorporate a H&K style of selector would be better.As for the lag of a bayonet lug,I belief we can make do w/o it,but then again..it would be a good to have.So yah,having a bayonet lug is quite essential too..
Yup,read in the magazine Guns & Ammo for Law Enforcement that the LAPD if not wrong and Maimi-Dade Swat were carrying out trials with the SAR21 and found it to be very useful to their work.So now...its up to them to decide to include it in their arsernal anot.. -
i dun think the US would ever buy the SAR-21 for military use. Firstly the defense spending is reviewed by the Senate( or the suits in congress) and of course weapon manufacturers have their backers in some senator they would definitely veto the idea(politics). the only way SAR-21 is used in US if its for law enforcement or Special Operations who have their on which weapon they want to use. of course there is will be also trouble if the US military uses SG rifles and got involved in a situation in combat (like the the movie Rules of Engagement). Surely SG dun want to be associated with such situations. lastly i think ST doesnot have the reputation of Colt, Heckler & Kochor Fn Herstal to win the bid to provide the weapons no matter how gd it is
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QBZ-95 / 97 [Type 95 / 97] assault rifle (People Republic of China)
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as39-e.htm
SAR 21
source of 97 image
http://jczs.sina.com.cn/2005-06-20/0945298862.html
SAR 21 with CIS 40mm Grenade Launcher (CIS 40 GL)
fr
http://www.stengg.com/CoyCapPro/detail.aspx?pdid=136 -
Photos got fr a site in Chinese.Details forgot.The Ultimax 100 is being fired against the nose,hand extended and standing position. It is very rare
for section automatic weapon which is so light recoil.
Have u seen people using other SAW to try like them?
The barrel is so long. -
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thanks .
Another version of SAR 21.
SAR 21 M203 GL, 5.56,back up combat sight located above optical,
Fr Vincent DeNiro,PRESIDENT,CLASS THREE SUPPKLY,US,site under construction.
This co. used to sell SAR 21.
Is the arch(projector) for grenade launching? -
It's used as a guide to the elevation of the launcher with respect to the distance you are firing at.Originally posted by lionnoisy:thanks .
Another version of SAR 21.
SAR 21 M203 GL, 5.56,back up combat sight located above optical,
Fr Vincent DeNiro,PRESIDENT,CLASS THREE SUPPKLY,US,site under construction.
This co. used to sell SAR 21.
Is the arch(projector) for grenade launching?
Same as the M16/M203 or M4/M203 combination.Except the M4 does away with this, because they normally place a floating reflex sight or a thermal sight where the carrying handle was. -
Can u calculate the rate of fire from the Ultimax 100 firing
against the nose position?See the photo 2 storeys above this posting. -
SAR 21 is just right fot most Asian men. -
As Joe Black mentioned, the US don't like bullpups. And yes, pride will prevent US from arming its army with weapons from a little island republic.
Someone mentioned that the scope fogs up - which I suspect in our climate is prone to do so. What if you've just crawled through mud or run through muddy water, will your scope be too dirty to see through?
With M16 iron sights this was never a problem.
I understand also that the SAR-21 iron sights are next to useless and good only for very very short distance. So if your scope is broken or for some reason unusable, you'd be shooting bobo?
I actually like the M16 a lot, not surprising since I spent years with it. Though not suitable for one-handed firing the M16 is still a very well-balanced weapon that's light and comfortable to carry. I never found the length to be a big problem.
Though later on as a runner I would've preferred a shorter weapon, the SAR-21 will not be my choice as it is heavier, and all its buttons and switches are apparently in hard to reach places.
On the M16 I can always put my weapon to safe as in an instant, I can switch from safe to auto in an instant with an intinctive flick of my thumb without having to make awkward movements.
Can you on a SAR-21? -
I have more confidence on SAR 21 over XM 8 after viewing this clip.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,128512,00.html
This clip was shown in 'Take Cover--XM 8 is shooting'
The comment from Col Mathew Clarks of US Army Product Manager for Individual Weapons under Product Manager for Soldier weapons makes me sit up.Extracted fr JDW 20.10.2004 by SCOTT GOURLEY:In FY 2004,testing began with about 200 XM8 Sprial 1 and recently shifted to Spiral 2.We found a couple of issues we need to fix.For example,we look at different types of flash suppressors and just to stuck... with a standard
The cover of that issue shows a Future Warrior.
closed-prong flash suppressor ,or bird-cage design,with a compensator ....that deflests the blast UP,SO THAT YOU DONT GET CLIMB ON YOUR WEAPON.
2.As a layman,to reduce the climb up is throwing back the rifle and redesign the
internal mechanism ,not just applying suppressors.SAR 21's recoil is much better!
I dunt think they can improve much on the recoil.
3.XM 8 dunt get laser .
4.fr http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/001107.html
There are some good news of XM8 fr the same site:This is a great picture. One of the first things that I noticed is the good view of the semi-clear ammunition clip. This one is empty (you can clearly see the spring inside), but you get a good idea of how easy it will be for our guys to check how many rounds they've got left with a quick glance.
Somewhere I read a remark that an electronic indicator in the sight would allow soldiers to monitor their ammo without taking their eyes off their target, and that's certainly true. In any event, the clear clip is an improvement over the current ones, as long as it's durable enough. -
The SAR21 is a better weapon for MOUT and as a weapon for HRTs who might need longer range and better punch in exfiltration missions.Originally posted by tvdog:As Joe Black mentioned, the US don't like bullpups. And yes, pride will prevent US from arming its army with weapons from a little island republic.
Someone mentioned that the scope fogs up - which I suspect in our climate is prone to do so. What if you've just crawled through mud or run through muddy water, will your scope be too dirty to see through?
With M16 iron sights this was never a problem.
I understand also that the SAR-21 iron sights are next to useless and good only for very very short distance. So if your scope is broken or for some reason unusable, you'd be shooting bobo?
I actually like the M16 a lot, not surprising since I spent years with it. Though not suitable for one-handed firing the M16 is still a very well-balanced weapon that's light and comfortable to carry. I never found the length to be a big problem.
Though later on as a runner I would've preferred a shorter weapon, the SAR-21 will not be my choice as it is heavier, and all its buttons and switches are apparently in hard to reach places.
On the M16 I can always put my weapon to safe as in an instant, I can switch from safe to auto in an instant with an intinctive flick of my thumb without having to make awkward movements.
Can you on a SAR-21? -
Hmm, why?Originally posted by lionnoisy:Can u calculate the rate of fire from the Ultimax 100 firing
against the nose position?See the photo 2 storeys above this posting.
Anyway, the SAW is a weapon cheap to repair and easy to use.One of our classics. -
Someone mentioned some US SWAT team is testing the SAR-21. I think the SAR-21 would be very ideal for SWAT operations.
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I know the North Carolina and Maryland PDs have trialled the weapons.Yes,its a good weapon for SWAT.Originally posted by tvdog:Someone mentioned some US SWAT team is testing the SAR-21. I think the SAR-21 would be very ideal for SWAT operations. -
SAR 21 fr STimes fr 2003 to 2004?What is the versions?
I know the latest one with nite sight and laser weighs only 5 kg ,3 kg
lighter.