Section/Platoon Fire Power.
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so it was said and still the strongest fire power that most say that we have. what do guys in here think of that?
how will you organize you section or platoon to get the max fire power it can give you.
again, there is not right or wrong answer but just which is the best.
lets have a look what are the "things" in a section.
5 X M16(old) 2 X M16 and 3 XSAR21 ~ 5.56mm, range 460m+/-. no problem for 600m
2 X SAW ~ 5,56mm, range 460m+/-. no problem for 600m
2 X M203 ~ HE and HEDP, range 31m to 150m point target, 350m, area target. White Star. rate of fire? arming distance 14m to 28m.
2 X LAW ~ HEAT(old) HEDP(new, not sure) 150m to 300m for armoured target and 500m for soft skin. arming distance 12m.
2 x SFG 82 each man ~ Fragmentation grenade.
2 X Bangalore Torpedo Charge ~
2 X Claymore Mine M18A1 ~ 700 ball bearing. back blast 16m.
2 X Pen Gun ~ LOL some say no more... i not sure.
2 X Parang ~
1 X P226?? ~ by right.
1 X GPMG under Platoon HQ.
so how will you organize you section for an assault. (note; assault will have a slight diff of an attack.)
for attack.
for defence.
for delay.
this was to know how sect comd, PC maximize the fire power within. again there is no right or wrong but just which is best that all. -
the answer should be straight out of any OCS handbook right??
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Ahh... you forgot the bayonets for the M16s !
In close combat, i.e. when in the last stage of assault on a enemy defensive position, the SOP (at least in my time and unit) was to fix bayonets and close in with the enemy (after lobbing some grenades of course). -
whatever is in the handbook, manual be it from OCS or SISPEC, my time SAFINCO, it is just a guide. how you were taught was another and how you execute it is another.Originally posted by spencer99:the answer should be straight out of any OCS handbook right??
one example...
Platoon close fire support. manual will used mostly the GPMG for that.
i dun. my MG team always stay next to me during an attack.
2 X SAW (LMG) can very well take care of what my MG can and even more than what MG cannot and with one more 1 X M203, any of the 2IC and he will take charge of this close fire support.
it still 3 X pax on the close fire but i had one more fire power, the HE and HEDP round. rate of fire increase, area cover increase, manpower remain the same.
note; the 2 X SAW are from diff section.
MG is the platoon best asset, has the most fire power, i dun see why not keep him close to me, give direct command of fire during an attack to kill/pin down enemies while i make my move. -
ya hor...Originally posted by specfore:Ahh... you forgot the bayonets for the M16s !
In close combat, i.e. when in the last stage of assault on a enemy defensive position, the SOP (at least in my time and unit) was to fix bayonets and close in with the enemy (after lobbing some grenades of course).
but i head that no more bayonets fighting training for man or i should say in SAF liao.
LOL.... i still remember "hold you muzzle and go roung the field."
chaaaarge...
forward trust, back turn trust, block, butt stroke, butt stroke upper cut, left/right slash... all the move = SIONG = memories. -
hmm bayonets quite interesting..some units still issue to their M203 gunners some don't. Any one can clarify ? My unit doesn't issue bayonets to the M203 gunners.which i think i still like a bayonet during attack ..Originally posted by specfore:Ahh... you forgot the bayonets for the M16s !
In close combat, i.e. when in the last stage of assault on a enemy defensive position, the SOP (at least in my time and unit) was to fix bayonets and close in with the enemy (after lobbing some grenades of course). -
u want? for what? open durian ah???
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have you ever try fix one on the M203Originally posted by one-niner:hmm bayonets quite interesting..some units still issue to their M203 gunners some don't. Any one can clarify ? My unit doesn't issue bayonets to the M203 gunners.which i think i still like a bayonet during attack ..
anyway each unit SOP, still i find it pointless to issue M203 with bayonets. -
yup thats why i was curious ..maybe it comes wit hthe weapon and armskote spec don't want to account for the bayonets.Originally posted by Joshua1975:have you ever try fix one on the M203
anyway each unit SOP, still i find it pointless to issue M203 with bayonets. -
Originally posted by one-niner:yup thats why i was curious ..maybe it comes wit hthe weapon and armskote spec don't want to account for the bayonets. dun get what you mean?
armskote spec dun want to account for? if there is 100pc and he issue 50pc, than there will be 50pc left, wat dun want to account for?
and it cannot be fix on M203 at all? er... you saw one or handle one b4 not? well i am straight forward.
in the 80s all weapon come with bayonet. till late 80s, some unit dun issue to M203 anymore as it was useless and as in defend, M203 gunner can borrow from his buddy to dig the grenade sump.
are you the one who had not seen a real drum mag b4? too many guys in here that sometime forget. -
bayonet i like.
should issue to everyone lah. even though cannot use for bayonet fighting anymore, but still useful as a personal weapon and sometimes as a tool
remember the saving private ryan scene? can come in handy once in a while
it can be use for demolition purposes while setting up the charges and also for setting up wire obstacles. can't do without it... -
i have seen the drum mag on display. it dark ,except for the back which is translucent i i recall for the gunner to see how many rnds remaining. I never used nor my unit ever used the drum magazines. they cited the loading as the main issue though my RSM tell us that it was still loadable by hand.Originally posted by Joshua1975: dun get what you mean?
armskote spec dun want to account for? if there is 100pc and he issue 50pc, than there will be 50pc left, wat dun want to account for?
and it cannot be fix on M203 at all? er... you saw one or handle one b4 not? well i am straight forward.
in the 80s all weapon come with bayonet. till late 80s, some unit dun issue to M203 anymore as it was useless and as in defend, M203 gunner can borrow from his buddy to dig the grenade sump.
are you the one who had not seen a real drum mag b4? too many guys in here that sometime forget.
yes i have handled the M203 GL attached to the M16...i don't noe why some units still issue bayonets to the M203 gunners. maybe they want the men to use the 40mm rnds to blast the enemy ..but still depends on terrain and situation.thick vegetation with too many low branches also no point... -
whatever... just to get back to the topic.Originally posted by one-niner:i have seen the drum mag on display. it dark ,except for the back which is translucent i i recall for the gunner to see how many rnds remaining. I never used nor my unit ever used the drum magazines. they cited the loading as the main issue though my RSM tell us that it was still loadable by hand.
yes i have handled the M203 GL attached to the M16...i don't noe why some units still issue bayonets to the M203 gunners. maybe they want the men to use the 40mm rnds to blast the enemy ..but still depends on terrain and situation.thick vegetation with too many low branches also no point...
the topic is how to get the max fire power in a section or platoon. agreed on the terrain part. to fully use the M203, one must know the surrounding well as well as the arming dis. needed for the round.
like to add. low branches (thick ones) will oni get into the way when the round is leaving the tube. if it on the other side, it doesn't matter, the thing is to get the enemy take cover and by chance kill them.
looks like no one in here have other ways of deployment of section weapon or platoon asset (MG) for fire fight other than what was taught to them.
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41sar still got draw bayonet. but becoz everyone is using sar21, bayonet is just left hanging on the SBO as an additional weight and responsibility.
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Note: I am not a combat spec..but I believe that our SAW assets should be mobile and also be deployed in a one -up formation, never together.Mass rapid firing never served any purpose,only to wind down ammo supply at an unacceptable rate.The MG pointman can stay with the PS, to be the oblique angle of fire above and diagonal to te section advance route.Originally posted by Joshua1975:whatever... just to get back to the topic.
the topic is how to get the max fire power in a section or platoon. agreed on the terrain part. to fully use the M203, one must know the surrounding well as well as the arming dis. needed for the round.
like to add. low branches (thick ones) will oni get into the way when the round is leaving the tube. if it on the other side, it doesn't matter, the thing is to get the enemy take cover and by chance kill them.
looks like no one in here have other ways of deployment of section weapon or platoon asset (MG) for fire fight other than what was taught to them. -
good... i need to say again.. there is no right or wrong answer when it come to tactics. as you had put it that you are not a combat spec. let read back, the example was on attack where close support was used.Originally posted by Jedi Master Windu:Note: I am not a combat spec..but I believe that our SAW assets should be mobile and also be deployed in a one -up formation, never together.Mass rapid firing never served any purpose,only to wind down ammo supply at an unacceptable rate.The MG pointman can stay with the PS, to be the oblique angle of fire above and diagonal to te section advance route.
Platoon close fire support. manual will used mostly the GPMG for that.
i dun. my MG team always stay next to me during an attack.
2 X SAW (LMG) can very well take care of what my MG can and even more than what MG cannot and with one more 1 X M203, any of the 2IC and he will take charge of this close fire support.
it still 3 X pax on the close fire but i had one more fire power, the HE and HEDP round. rate of fire increase, area cover increase, manpower remain the same.
note; the 2 X SAW are from diff section.
MG is the platoon best asset, has the most fire power, i dun see why not keep him close to me, give direct command of fire during an attack to kill/pin down enemies while i make my move.
i need fire support for my maneuver and a norm for SAF dortrine will be using the MG as close fire support. from you "Mass rapid firing never served any purpose,only to wind down ammo supply at an unacceptable rate" which i think you must be disagreed with the dortrine of using MG as it oso wind down ammo supply.
unacceptable rate happen when you trigger happy. when the 2 saw are with the assualt group, dun they fire at the same rate as when in close support?
SAW was never together was right in some way. in fact in a section all weapon was line up in such a way that the same weapon was never side by side. but for my example it was for close fire support which i had say earlier it was for fire support for my maneuver during the attack.
next MG pointman? you mean the MG commander, gunner or the assistant? btw, sorry i never heard of MG pointman.
just to make clear, when i say MG stay near to me (a PS) it not with me in the back but at the front most doing the fire fight. dun know why but it a norm for me that my PC will die before the real assualt take place.
to side track and to add, if i really need to go war front as a PS. i will prefer my PC fall sick and dun go with me or really he get himself kill b4 the fire fight start. too bad for my platoon, i am CSM in reserve. -
So would Windu's tactics work in an urban setting?
I think yours work well in a jungle setting.Overwhelming force is good when you are fighting a battle in a rapid advance.To hold ground, I think perhaps ammo conservation might be needed.But I agree, most of us rather have the PC out of the way and let the CSM/PS lead the charge or advance.The PC can be better utilised at the signal post and not too far up in the attack. -
Bayonet is required for the following reasons,
1) prope for mines in breaching or obstacles.............
2) CQC
3) take out enemy silentlyOriginally posted by nismoS132:41sar still got draw bayonet. but becoz everyone is using sar21, bayonet is just left hanging on the SBO as an additional weight and responsibility. -
Originally posted by Slywong:Bayonet is required for the following reasons,
1) prope for mines in breaching or obstacles.............
2) CQC
3) take out enemy silently the bayonets issued are a bit blunt .... -
Just a quick qn: Do sg sections have the benefit of close air support? I dun remember receiving such trg but then i wasn't an infantry sec com.
So far, it appears that only the US army is able to regularly provide close air support to its soldiers. -
Prope too much mine liao..........
That means more agony for the enemy..........
Originally posted by crazy monkey: the bayonets issued are a bit blunt .... -
That will be in the Brid or Div levelOriginally posted by lwflee:Just a quick qn: Do sg sections have the benefit of close air support? I dun remember receiving such trg but then i wasn't an infantry sec com.
So far, it appears that only the US army is able to regularly provide close air support to its soldiers. -
i cannot tell will it work in urban setting or not but for FIBUA, i have another set up.Originally posted by LazerLordz:So would Windu's tactics work in an urban setting?
I think yours work well in a jungle setting.Overwhelming force is good when you are fighting a battle in a rapid advance.To hold ground, I think perhaps ammo conservation might be needed.But I agree, most of us rather have the PC out of the way and let the CSM/PS lead the charge or advance.The PC can be better utilised at the signal post and not too far up in the attack.
it very much depend on the surrounding. say b4 going in or i had yet to capture a foot-hold. the close fire support i will choose will be 1st LAW/SS (my time) but now most using SAR21 with scope so any one will do with another M203 (section 2IC again). MG will not be of much use till i in.
in BUA, i need a kill if not every short and not enemy darting away from my firing and come shooting at me when my man reload.
once in than MG will be deploy on high level to cover open area where most likely enemy withdraw route or enemy reinforcement will be coming from. the rest will be drill taught during FIBUA, nothing change much. the oni thing i like to see changes is maybe the SAW can change to the PARA version. it just too long for BUA.
for the ammo conservation part. it come down to what training the guys get.
and for the PC, no i wish for and very much still need a good PC to lead the attack, as PS we have other jobs need to be done. more so in FIBUA. if i have to take over PC role, i must have a very good section comd who can take over my job. (most of the time i have all 4 who can)
if PC are to be at signal post, why in the 1st place SAF send him go OCS? btw, he got a runner with signal set next to him most of the time. -
The Para issue makes much sense, so does your PC idea.However, given that we have a huge force of NSF 2LTs and LTAs, it seems that the regular PSes might have to take on a larger responsibility.And they and the CSMs are sandwiched between two groups of commanders which are primarily reserve in nature.Originally posted by Joshua1975:i cannot tell will it work in urban setting or not but for FIBUA, i have another set up.
it very much depend on the surrounding. say b4 going in or i had yet to capture a foot-hold. the close fire support i will choose will be 1st LAW/SS (my time) but now most using SAR21 with scope so any one will do with another M203 (section 2IC again). MG will not be of much use till i in.
in BUA, i need a kill if not every short and not enemy darting away from my firing and come shooting at me when my man reload.
once in than MG will be deploy on high level to cover open area where most likely enemy withdraw route or enemy reinforcement will be coming from. the rest will be drill taught during FIBUA, nothing change much. the oni thing i like to see changes is maybe the SAW can change to the PARA version. it just too long for BUA.
for the ammo conservation part. it come down to what training the guys get.
and for the PC, no i wish for and very much still need a good PC to lead the attack, as PS we have other jobs need to be done. more so in FIBUA. if i have to take over PC role, i must have a very good section comd who can take over my job. (most of the time i have all 4 who can)
if PC are to be at signal post, why in the 1st place SAF send him go OCS? btw, he got a runner with signal set next to him most of the time. -
The PS know more and should be doing the leading the platoon while the PC keep out of harm's way.....
The above theory is more applicable for career military force like the US Army.
The PC is probably a fresh LT in a "entry level" position. Whereas the PS is a career soldier with many years of experience and possibly even work his way up as an infantryman.
So in combat, it would make sense that the PS would be a more valuable asset and make more contribution to the platoon compared to the greenhorn PC.
However, in the SAF, the bulk of our fighting force are made up of NS units and NSmen.
In this case, both PC and PS have the same level of experience, in this sense, i would think that the PC with more extensive training in OCS would be qualified to lead.
Just my 2 cents.