Coy support weapon.
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Do you guys think that we should have add on one more support weapon in the Coy level to add more fire power.
I had posted one topic on 60mm mortar in here b4. http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=88871
with just 84mmRR, do you think it enough for the coy or add in the 60mm mortar. in fact the 60mm can be in the platoon asset that is if we add more manpower to it but i think will not happen in any near future. -
60mm Soltam huh..that's not in use these days.In preservation I think.The Matador is supposed to complement and slowly replace the 84mm RR.However, the Swedish Army has come out with an upgrade to the M3 Carl Gustav, as the 84mm is known.
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The company will tired more easily to carry 2 heavy weapons.... not to mention the increase in ammo to carry.... which is also added by the supply chain.... it may seems easy to do but u need to think of the solution holistically...Originally posted by Joshua1975:Do you guys think that we should have add on one more support weapon in the Coy level to add more fire power.
I had posted one topic on 60mm mortar in here b4. http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=88871
with just 84mmRR, do you think it enough for the coy or add in the 60mm mortar. in fact the 60mm can be in the platoon asset that is if we add more manpower to it but i think will not happen in any near future. -
just to be clear, i did say add manpower which i dun think in any near future SAF will.Originally posted by hmsg:The company will tired more easily to carry 2 heavy weapons.... not to mention the increase in ammo to carry.... which is also added by the supply chain.... it may seems easy to do but u need to think of the solution holistically...
2 heavy weapon?
Weight:
45.2 lbs assembled; barrel 16 lbs; bipod 16.4 lbs; base plate 12.8 lbs. Base Plate M1 4.5 lbs.
just use Hand-held and it will oni be barrel + base plate M1 ~ 16. + 4.5 = 20.5lbs. that is 9.299kg.
maybe you mix up the 81mm with 60mm. anyway it really give more punch that's how i feel. i am saying let it be in the Coy level and not platoon asset. -
Obviously you never have stand to with full load.
You may be crazy to suggest add 60mm Mt when already we are trying to reduce basic combat load to XX contact rate from YY rate (classified). (those who know will agree with move to XX contact rate, personally I disagree, preferred older YY rate)
Any new system requires supply tail, rationale for use. BTW you seem to have missed the use of your M203 (between hand gren and min 120mm safety distance). -
My take on this is that the 60mm mortar is not suitable for our infantry units.
Yes, the weight of the weapons is relatively light, but does anyone here consider about the wieght of the ammo load??
The weight of the ammo is abt 1.4 ~1.85 kg per round, how many could one men carry , and many men needed for one 60mm mortar team?In the Marine Corps, our 60mm guns were usually in three gun-squads in a 20-man mortar section commanded by a lieutenant, reinforcing each Rifle Company. Each gun-squad consisted of a squad leader, gunner, assistant gunner and 3 ammo bearers. In deployment for action, the ammo carriers humped 6 loads, in addition to their weapons and equipment. On the move, the gunner carried the complete mortar w/o sight, and all other men carried ammo bags or packboards strapping 12 loads. In addition all men carried their equipment and a carbine, and the squad leader carried the M4 sight.
From the above, US team have a 6 men squad with 3 ammo bearers , here a bit confusing, 3 ammo bearers with 6 loads, that's mean 2 load each.
One the move , it is double?
Anyway, you need such a large team becos of weight of the ammo, the US coy level 60mm mortar support is practically a platoon level in SAF context.
Could SAF afford an additional Pl?
If you say only one mortar per coy, will it be effective?
Next is , we need to have arty trained officer for that squad, becos 60mm mortar is an indirect weapon which is usually use in defilade, thus higher prob. of situation like blue on blue, thus I believe we need a well trained arty officer for that squad.
All the info could be found from here :
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/60mm.htm
Then we already have 81/120mm mortar in support coy with max range of abt 3km for 81mm and 9km for 120mm( non rocket assist).
With 120mm mortar, the range is sufficient to support any coy, in Bn level missions, that should not be problem. If it is only coy missions, then some 120mm mortar could be attached to that coy.
Thus I think a small mortar for coy level is not needed.
But to increase the firepower of Pl/coy level, there is a great interest in producing a manportable automatic grenade launcher(AGL), I believe in US, they have developed 20mm manportable AGL. Not sure it is operational or not.
Likewise, ST also came out with 40mm SLWAGL(max range 2.2km) which weight abt 14kg, not sure this include the tripod or not, but becos of the much lighter ammo, I believe that this could be much smaller team, due to that you dun need too many ammo carriers for the required ammo load.
For example, 4 men team, section commander for sight( if they are using ABMS), the gunner with SLWAGL, asst gunner with tripod plus one box of ammo, and one ammo carrier with two boxes of ammo.
The advantage of this team over the 60mm is that a smaller team , most likely able to carry more ammo and we dun need to have arty trained officer. -
??? 80+HRS self sufficient. i think your max 30hrs self sufficient... must be a BIG FULL LOAD to you...Originally posted by baer:Obviously you never have stand to with full load.You may be crazy to suggest add 60mm Mt when already we are trying to reduce basic combat load to XX contact rate from YY rate (classified). (those who know will agree with move to XX contact rate, personally I disagree, preferred older YY rate)
crazy... i will be adding the 81mm and not the 60mm??? dun tell me about X or Y contact rate unless you had done OPS before... oh!!! i should say if you ever had the chance of getting fullly 'loaded'
whatever ex. you had with blanks are not LOADS at all. Contact Rate?
the point is on adding fire power into the coy. say the whole coy oni carry M16 or SAR21 with your X or Y contact rate and so what? there ain't any power at all. it not going to cause any great damage to the enemy.Any new system requires supply tail, rationale for use. BTW you seem to have missed the use of your M203 (between hand gren and min 120mm safety distance).
to be clear, the point on add manpower come into mind 1st before adding 60mm in Coy asset.
new system requires supply tail? dun get you at all for this whole of last part.
1. it just add into re-sup list... Log "O" can do that very well. or you telling me the re-sup for new system come in another way? another vehicle? another system?
2. please read the other link before making these comment on miss use of M203.
3. and for 120mm safety distance??? 12 cm??? what's that? -
humm... can anyone in here from 81mm platoon tell us am i right on manpack as how was the round carry to site?Originally posted by gary1910:My take on this is that the 60mm mortar is not suitable for our infantry units.
Yes, the weight of the weapons is relatively light, but does anyone here consider about the wieght of the ammo load??
The weight of the ammo is abt 1.4 ~1.85 kg per round, how many could one men carry , and many men needed for one 60mm mortar team?
From the above, US team have a 6 men squad with 3 ammo bearers , here a bit confusing, 3 ammo bearers with 6 loads, that's mean 2 load each.
One the move , it is double?
Anyway, you need such a large team becos of weight of the ammo, the US coy level 60mm mortar support is practically a platoon level in SAF context.
Could SAF afford an additional Pl?
If you say only one mortar per coy, will it be effective?
Next is , we need to have arty trained officer for that squad, becos 60mm mortar is an indirect weapon which is usually use in defilade, thus higher prob. of situation like blue on blue, thus I believe we need a well trained arty officer for that squad.
All the info could be found from here :
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/60mm.htm
Then we already have 81/120mm mortar in support coy with max range of abt 3km for 81mm and 9km for 120mm( non rocket assist).
With 120mm mortar, the range is sufficient to support any coy, in Bn level missions, that should not be problem. If it is only coy missions, then some 120mm mortar could be attached to that coy.
Thus I think a small mortar for coy level is not needed.
But to increase the firepower of Pl/coy level, there is a great interest in producing a manportable automatic grenade launcher(AGL), I believe in US, they have developed 20mm manportable AGL. Not sure it is operational or not.
Likewise, ST also came out with 40mm SLWAGL(max range 2.2km) which weight abt 14kg, not sure this include the tripod or not, but becos of the much lighter ammo, I believe that this could be much smaller team, due to that you dun need too many ammo carriers for the required ammo load.
For example, 4 men team, section commander for sight( if they are using ABMS), the gunner with SLWAGL, asst gunner with tripod plus one box of ammo, and one ammo carrier with two boxes of ammo.
The advantage of this team over the 60mm is that a smaller team , most likely able to carry more ammo and we dun need to have arty trained officer.
1 rounds was given to each man in the coy. all round will drop off at break off point where 81mm platoon will take over and bring to site.
look like weight itself is not an issue for 81mm whereby it need to support at BN level. so dun see 60mm will cause any when it for 1st line coy support.
becos 60mm mortar is an indirect weapon which is usually use in defilade. "to add range 75m to 1000m" we need to have arty trained officer for that squad. just hand-held 60mm we are talking here.
so can i say when i ask 4 X M203 to fire together in a box formation, an arty trained officer must be around because it oso an indirect fire type?
deployment, engaging of weapon depend on one how well he know one. how to full use the 60mm depend much on OPS as well such as used it for attack? delay? cover withdraw? numbers of tube in a team? numbers of tube to be use each time at 'that' position?
pointless on using US as example when we are in SE Asia. and the context is not 100% same at all. just look at the terrain.
but again, there is no right or wrong when it come to tactics. deployment. -
humm... can anyone in here from 81mm platoon tell us am i right on manpack as how was the round carry to site?
Is this SOP, no right.
1 rounds was given to each man in the coy. all round will drop off at break off point where 81mm platoon will take over and bring to site.
look like weight itself is not an issue for 81mm whereby it need to support at BN level. so dun see 60mm will cause any when it for 1st line coy support.
You are giving example where there is need of indirect fire,but none is available, or due to terrain where vehicle cannot reach etc.
And if you need every man to carry one mortar round, then that it is improvise, cannot be considered as standard coy level weapon, becos what happen if the coy is ambush before reaching FUP???
Then what abt the 120mm mortar in SP coy, with range of 9km, where are they? With that range, it amybe able to manuever into position to support.
I heard that 120mm will replace the 81, it maybe due to the much longer range.
If the need to have more firepower, I will rather have my men carry more 7.62 for MG or more grenade for M203 or 5.56 for SAW etc.
Anyway , there is reason why there is standard weapon/ammo load for each man, they are calculated so that the men will not carry too much load and get too tired too soon before the mission and yet sufficient ammo for the mission.becos 60mm mortar is an indirect weapon which is usually use in defilade. "to add range 75m to 1000m" we need to have arty trained officer for that squad. just hand-held 60mm we are talking here.
Becos it is an indirect weapon, at time it will be use behind a hill etc, so the mortar team will not know the exact location of the enemy, rey only on info from the friendly troops, thus it need a well trained arty officer to calculate the right elevation & azimuth.
so can i say when i ask 4 X M203 to fire together in a box formation, an arty trained officer must be around because it oso an indirect fire type?
M203 is more or less a direct fire weapon, the firer will see where the rounds land, mortar is not, they are totally different.
Here the quote from the same link:Infantry mortars are normally employed in defiladed positions, such as the reverse slope of a hill or ridge, so as not to be vulnerable to enemy direct fire positions. Hence direction and altitude settings are normally controlled indirectly by a forward observer, or an aiming stake about 10-25 yards forward of the gunner, ..........l.
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Hmmm..... - reminds me of an exercise whereby the guys in the battalion had to carry the rounds for the mortar platoon. Every section was given a few rounds (81mm canisters with sand) to carry to a drop off point. The mortar crews took over from there. It was so long ago, almost forgot about it.
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let not go to far away...
the topic is on Coy Support Weapon. the 1st line of support fire. 120mm mortar is for BN level. please.
most unit go in as BN level but some do send Coy level mission where BN support was not anywhere near them... and i am not talking about CDO here.
keep an open mind and not oni on attack. what about delay? using oni 84mmRR dun really work so well if those know what i am talking.
another thing, doesn't mean US use an arty trained offr in the 60mm we must as well. maybe some can check up what the VC do with 60mm back in viet war and how it affect the US all in all.
note; read back, i oni say hand-held mod. -
Can you please tell me what type of unit you served in? Infantry, Guards etc?Originally posted by Joshua1975:let not go to far away...
the topic is on Coy Support Weapon. the 1st line of support fire. 120mm mortar is for BN level. please.
most unit go in as BN level but some do send Coy level mission where BN support was not anywhere near them... and i am not talking about CDO here.
keep an open mind and not oni on attack. what about delay? using oni 84mmRR dun really work so well if those know what i am talking.
another thing, doesn't mean US use an arty trained offr in the 60mm we must as well. maybe some can check up what the VC do with 60mm back in viet war and how it affect the US all in all.
note; read back, i oni say hand-held mod.
I was in infantry (Res) until about 9 years ago and we had no weapon heavier than a Ambrust LAW in the Rifle Company.
Anything heavier would be in the Support Company like the GPMG, 84mm and 81mm.
I am curious to know how your unit was structured.
And, btw, when you say the "coy" should have a 60mm mortar, I assume you are referring to the Rifle Company and not Support, right? -
if i'm to choose, i rather have a pair of snipers in the coy HQ.
then OC can use them as support fire to engage pinpoint targets like MG nests while the coy assault the obj.
the snipers can also be use in defense mission or block mission.
juz my opinion. -
You in some POI unit?Originally posted by tvdog:Can you please tell me what type of unit you served in? Infantry, Guards etc?
I was in infantry (Res) until about 9 years ago and we had no weapon heavier than a Ambrust LAW in the Rifle Company.
Anything heavier would be in the Support Company like the GPMG, 84mm and 81mm.
I am curious to know how your unit was structured.
And, btw, when you say the "coy" should have a 60mm mortar, I assume you are referring to the Rifle Company and not Support, right?
All standard Guards/Infantry companies have 4 x 84mm guns. Each platoon also has an MG. The support company has a 81mm or 120mm mortar platoon, and also a anti-tank platoon (milan/spike/106mm). That's what I've seen for the last 15 years in NS and reserves. -
trying to get all fool in here??? good try. so how many rifle coy are there in a BN?Originally posted by tvdog:Can you please tell me what type of unit you served in? Infantry, Guards etc?
I was in infantry (Res) until about 9 years ago and we had no weapon heavier than a Ambrust LAW in the Rifle Company.
Anything heavier would be in the Support Company like the GPMG, 84mm and 81mm.
I am curious to know how your unit was structured.
And, btw, when you say the "coy" should have a 60mm mortar, I assume you are referring to the Rifle Company and not Support, right?
9 years ago... that will be 1996 and your last in-camp if i get you correctly.
so some where in 1982/83 will be you enlistment date.
even in the old structured of 9 man section as in reserve. a rifle coy will have the asset of a GPMG section.
if you cannot remember what in a GPMG section, let me refresh you. 3 X GPMG. made up of 3 gunner, 3 asst, 1 comd and 1 2IC if i remember correctly.
1 more point. you mention GPMG, 84 and 81 but why did not mention the 106mmRR at all??? -
During reservist I was in a PDF unit - ???SIR, Bravo Company, Platoon 5, where I was the platoon runner. All the 3 companies Alpha Bravo & Charlie were organised just like I described. No heavy weapons.Originally posted by bcoy:You in some POI unit?
All standard Guards/Infantry companies have 4 x 84mm guns. Each platoon also has an MG. The support company has a 81mm or 120mm mortar platoon, and also a anti-tank platoon (milan/spike/106mm). That's what I've seen for the last 15 years in NS and reserves.
Delta, on the other hand, was purely Support Company. I'm not sure how they were organised but they were all GPMG, 84mm and 81mm people.
However, the RIfle Companies always had some people from the Support Company attached to us depending on the mission.
For example, there would be a GPMG team attached to my Platoon 5 while we are assaulting our sector of the FIBUA village. Or the next time it could be 84 team. At the same time, of course, the rest of the Support Company assets are similarly distributed amongst the other Rifle Companies and platoons. Some Support Company assets like the 81mm remain wholly intact and take no part in the Rifle Company activites other than to provide indirect support fire.
I guess this is a good thing as a lightly-armed company like ours can move easier especially since some fellas get quite out-of-shape as the years goes by. Of course, our being a PDF unit must have something to do with us not having 84 as part of the company strength as we are expected to just defend Singapore. But oddly, we rarely train for defense but mostly for assaults. -
and where are the sniper?
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one more, so are you in a 9 or 11 man section?
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snipers are good.. i think russian army got snipers in their platoon level...Originally posted by 12qwaszx:if i'm to choose, i rather have a pair of snipers in the coy HQ.
then OC can use them as support fire to engage pinpoint targets like MG nests while the coy assault the obj.
the snipers can also be use in defense mission or block mission.
juz my opinion.
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Erm...What would I gain from fooling you? Jesu.s...Originally posted by Joshua1975:trying to get all fool in here??? good try. so how many rifle coy are there in a BN?
9 years ago... that will be 1996 and your last in-camp if i get you correctly.
so some where in 1982/83 will be you enlistment date.
even in the old structured of 9 man section as in reserve. a rifle coy will have the asset of a GPMG section.
if you cannot remember what in a GPMG section, let me refresh you. 3 X GPMG. made up of 3 gunner, 3 asst, 1 comd and 1 2IC if i remember correctly.
1 more point. you mention GPMG, 84 and 81 but why did not mention the 106mmRR at all??? -
Was your unit was "formed" only from the first ICT? You must be from the old POI units found in PDF. Also, your unit lack a number of other platoons found in the standard Guards/Infantry units (I won't mention them).Originally posted by tvdog:All the 3 companies Alpha Bravo & Charlie were organised just like I described. No heavy weapons.
Delta, on the other hand, was purely Suport Company. I'm not sure how they were organised but they were all GPMG, 84mm and 81mm people.
However, the RIfle Companies always had some people from the Support Company attached to us depending on the mission.
For example, there would be a GPMG team attached to my Platoon 5 while we are assaulting our sector of the FIBUA village. Or the next time it could be 84 team. At the same time, of course, the rest of the Support Company assets are similarly distributed amongst the other Rifle Companies and platoons. Some Support Company assets like the 81mm remain wholly intact and take no part in the Rifle Company activites other than to provide indirect support fire.
I guess this is a good thing as a lightly-armed company like ours can move easier especially since some fellas get quite out-of-shape as the years goes by. Of course, our being a PDF unit must have something to do with us not having 84 as part of the company strength as we are expected to just defend Singapore. But oddly, we rarely train for defense but mostly for assaults.
PDF has a number of different "styled" units, although I suspect these days, the new core will be from those finishing the NS in 6 SIR. -
Originally posted by 12qwaszx:if i'm to choose, i rather have a pair of snipers in the coy HQ.
then OC can use them as support fire to engage pinpoint targets like MG nests while the coy assault the obj.
the snipers can also be use in defense mission or block mission.
juz my opinion.
plese check what are the role of a sniper b4 making such comment like engage pinpoint target like MG nest. use in defense or block.Originally posted by I-like-flings(m):snipers are good.. i think russian army got snipers in their platoon level...
the role part i will let you guys check it up yourself.
pinpoint... MG nests? the LAW/SS for what? 1 round of 40mm from M203 isn't it better.
defence... ? where? which area of defence are you refering to? what can a sniper do when 100+ man come charging at you? little he can do from what i see.
block... ? most of the time your BN block what type of force? with 7.62mm lapua round, who is he going to block or "what" can he block? -
Joshua1975:
Stop being so suspicious. Being a platoon runner in a PDF unit is nothing to boast about, I assure you.
NO, we DO NOT HAVE 106 in my battalion. Don't ask me why. And by that time the 106 are well and truly obsolete.
We do not have snipers - only sharpshooters in the sections. If there are snipers, they probably belong to the Brigade for I have never seen them in our bn.
We were 9-men sections.
Our entire battalion have only unarmed rovers and trucks. Several times we have ridden to excercise areas in civilian buses in full combat gear. We debus - literally - and then march on foot. People find it very funny to see buses full of fully-armed chaps all looking a bit sheepish at the very unmilitary transport.
Later on I think this is not because we have not enough trucks but it seemed like a good test of using civilian assets in times of war. (The Israeli did this during their mobilisation for the 6-Day War.)
Later on, we sometimes had the use of a fleet of V-200 but they are not a integral part of our unit. I guess they were trying out a lot of stuff with our unit but mostly, we were very lightly armed for a battalion.
And like I mentioned we always have a GPMG team with us but strangely, they are not an integral part of any of the rifle platoons. Definitely no 84 as none of us ever had to carry 84 spare ammo.
Our training is mainly assaulting FIBUA and FOFO. And once or twice, big coastal defence excercises. -
Originally posted by tvdog:Erm...What would I gain from fooling you? Jesu.s...
some had say i like to put ppl down... that's my ways of put thing in. not tactful enough... nothing meant at all. -
Please tell me what does "POI" stand for?Originally posted by bcoy:Was your unit was "formed" only from the first ICT? You must be from the old POI units found in PDF. Also, your unit lack a number of other platoons found in the standard Guards/Infantry units (I won't mention them).
PDF has a number of different "styled" units, although I suspect these days, the new core will be from those finishing the NS in 6 SIR.
Was my unit formed from the first ICT? I guess so but I didn't join them till their 3rd ICT. I did my first 3 ICT in the S2 branch or a Guards unit. But since I wasn't heliborne qualified as I had always been in infantry, so I got posted back to infantry.
I was attached to another battalion within the same Brigade as Section Commander and they were organised the same way. (I shouldn't mention unit numbers so i will go back and delete from previous posts.)
Later on I did all the ICT with the unit I mentioned earlier.
I did feel our Battalion was very skeletal and simple. I always thought all PDF units were senang defense only but boy... was I wrong. We were mostly training for assaults. And like I mentioned before in other threads, the morale was extremely high and the training very tough and rigorous.