Coy support weapon.
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Apologies accepted and I take back what I said.Originally posted by Joshua1975:
some had say i like to put ppl down... that's my ways of put thing in. not tactful enough... nothing meant at all. -
uncle.. i did not say using mg nest is good.. but if there is a need why not? u can use anything if as long as u can get the job doneOriginally posted by Joshua1975:plese check what are the role of a sniper b4 making such comment like engage pinpoint target like MG nest. use in defense or block.
the role part i will let you guys check it up yourself.
pinpoint... MG nests? the LAW/SS for what? 1 round of 40mm from M203 isn't it better.
defence... ? where? which area of defence are you refering to? what can a sniper do when 100+ man come charging at you? little he can do from what i see.
block... ? most of the time your BN block what type of force? with 7.62mm lapua round, who is he going to block or "what" can he block?
and there also big different between 100 +man come charging at u with and without their OC and PC ....
and not everytime block are for tanks only.. even if it is, which u think will affect them more? tank commander got killed or 60mm raining on them? -
Sounds like you were part of the original PDF units that was suppose have V200 support. The platoon support fire will come from the V200 vehicles. Each vehicle with one infantry section. There is no space for additional GPMG or 84mm gunners, hence all are moved to a support company - just like the old armoured units.Originally posted by tvdog:We were 9-men sections.
Our entire battalion have only unarmed rovers and trucks. Several times we have ridden to excercise areas in civilian buses in full combat gear. We debus - literally - and then march on foot. People find it very funny to see buses full of fully-armed chaps all looking a bit sheepish at the very unmilitary transport.
Later on I think this is not because we have not enough trucks but it seemed like a good test of using civilian assets in times of war. (The Israeli did this during their mobilisation for the 6-Day War.)
Later on, we sometimes had the use of a fleet of V-200 but they are not a integral part of our unit. I guess they were trying out a lot of stuff with our unit but mostly, we were very lightly armed for a battalion.
And like I mentioned we always have a GPMG team with us but strangely, they are not an integral part of any of the rifle platoons. Definitely no 84 as none of us ever had to carry 84 spare ammo.
Our training is mainly assaulting FIBUA and FOFO. And once or twice, big coastal defence excercises.
Well - my last unit has taken over that role, together with the V200 ASU. Difference is - we were a guards brigade, but in PDF. But now ROD already. -
POI, if i am not wrong should be Protection Of Installation.Originally posted by tvdog:Please tell me what does "POI" stand for?
Was my unit formed from the first ICT? I guess so but I didn't join them till their 3rd ICT. I did my first 3 ICT in the S2 branch or a Guards unit. But since I wasn't heliborne qualified as I had always been in infantry, so I got posted back to infantry.
I was attached to another battalion within the same Brigade as Section Commander and they were organised the same way. (I shouldn't mention unit numbers so i will go back and delete from previous posts.)
Later on I did all the ICT with the unit I mentioned earlier.
I did feel our Battalion was very skeletal and simple. I always thought all PDF units were senang defense only but boy... was I wrong. We were mostly training for assaults. And like I mentioned before in other threads, the morale was extremely high and the training very tough and rigorous.
the V-200 was for some Guards unit back than but somehow KIV.
PDF, depend if it the red or blue lion as what most will say. can not remember which is more siong and the other is senang.
for the GPMG thing maybe you did not take note of the changes during your time. it was in support as a platoon by itself and att to coy when on mission at 1st and later take out from support coy, break up section level and become rifle coy asset which later break up again and become platoon asset. -
In one of your earlier post you quoted my post which I stupidly wrote my unit number. Please go and edit that out. Thanks.Originally posted by bcoy:Sounds like you were part of the original PDF units that was suppose have V200 support. The platoon support fire will come from the V200 vehicles. Each vehicle with one infantry section. There is no space for additional GPMG or 84mm gunners, hence all are moved to a support company - just like the old armoured units.
Well - my last unit has taken over that role, together with the V200 ASU. Difference is - we were a guards brigade, but in PDF. But now ROD already.
We did not have the V-200 at first. We were always on foot, trucks or taking the bus
Then one ICT, the parade square was filled with all these V-200 in different config.
But that was my last ICT, after that I left to work overseas.
Again, what is a "POI"? -
read proper lar... i quote 2 ppl not directing at you mah.Originally posted by I-like-flings(m):uncle.. i did not say using mg nest is good.. but if there is a need why not? u can use anything if as long as u can get the job done
and there also big different between 100 +man come charging at u with and without their OC and PC ....
and not everytime block are for tanks only.. even if it is, which u think will affect them more? tank commander got killed or 60mm raining on them?
b4 i go on, please check the role of sniper 1st in SAF context. why when it was in BN in the early days but now in Bde?
to train a sniper is not cheap and must make full use of it cap. it will oni limit his cap if he was to be in a rifle platoon. -
Yeah, maybe you are right about the GPMG team thing.Originally posted by Joshua1975:POI, if i am not wrong should be Protection Of Installation.
the V-200 was for some Guards unit back than but somehow KIV.
PDF, depend if it the red or blue lion as what most will say. can not remember which is more siong and the other is senang.
for the GPMG thing maybe you did not take note of the changes during your time. it was in support as a platoon by itself and att to coy when on mission at 1st and later take out from support coy, break up section level and become rifle coy asset which later break up again and become platoon asset.
In the army you only know what they think you need to know and nothing more. So I was only aware that the GPMG team was not a part of my platoon.
Well, we were never trained in POI or protection of anything. Our training quite siong and involve a lot of marching and attacking, very little defence. Like I said, assaulting FIBUA and FOFO seemed to have been our specialty.
I think ours was the red lion PDF. Not something I paid alot of attention to. -
Josh - not KIV - my unit did operate with the V200s until ROD.Originally posted by Joshua1975:POI, if i am not wrong should be Protection Of Installation.
the V-200 was for some Guards unit back than but somehow KIV.
PDF, depend if it the red or blue lion as what most will say. can not remember which is more siong and the other is senang.
for the GPMG thing maybe you did not take note of the changes during your time. it was in support as a platoon by itself and att to coy when on mission at 1st and later take out from support coy, break up section level and become rifle coy asset which later break up again and become platoon asset. -
bcoy
thanks for making the edit. -
You are not POI - its counter-attack role.Originally posted by tvdog:Yeah, maybe you are right about the GPMG team thing.
In the army you only know what they think you need to know and nothing more. So I was only aware that the GPMG team was not a part of my platoon.
Well, we were never trained in POI or protection of anything. Our training quite siong and involve a lot of marching and attacking, very little defence. Like I said, assaulting FIBUA and FOFO seemed to have been our specialty.
I think ours was the red lion PDF. Not something I paid alot of attention to. -
i mean KIV after your unit went ROD. as we have add other so call 'tank' in SAF.Originally posted by bcoy:Josh - not KIV - my unit did operate with the V200s until ROD.
still in KIV, if not we will not be 'keeping' it for so long. will have sell off right after the last unit using had ROD. -
Maybe the V-200 was revived as a test-bed for possible future deployment of something like the Terrex?
I see the wheel vehicles as a fast platform but good only for roads or tracks. Definitely bad choice for cross country. -
Talking about V200,think u guys can improve /amend data in:
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=133686
thanks. -
ar har... some top brass foresee we will end up in FIBUA most of the time back in the 70s i think. and he is right on.Originally posted by tvdog:Maybe the V-200 was revived as a test-bed for possible future deployment of something like the Terrex?
I see the wheel vehicles as a fast platform but good only for roads or tracks. Definitely bad choice for cross country. -
thanks for posting in here.Originally posted by lionnoisy:Talking about V200,think u guys can improve /amend data in:
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=133686
thanks. -
Another very funny thing about my unit:
we were issued with short 20-round magazines!
At first I couldn't believe it and I thought it was a temporary thing.
But then when they issued us with the (then) new Israeli-type chest (bra) webbing, they came with pouches for 20-round magazines only!
A few years earlier when I was in the Guards unit we were already issued with the chest webibings and they all came with 30-round mag pouches.
So I was quite shocked as my whole life I had never used 20-round magazines. These were like Vietnam era, only brand new. Or very well preserved and unused.
The officers wouldn't comment or don't know. I asked one trainer and all he said was "we have a warehouse full of them".
But it's a damn funny situation. The SAW gunners were given 30-round mags but M-16 users all had 20-round mags. I felt very humiliated by this and until today did not understand the reason. Logistically, it made no sense to have 2 types of mags and webbings for such a small armed force like ours.
Sure, we were issued a lot of old and obsolete equipment like the 12kg PRC-77 radioset I carried, but since we were an assault force and not a static defence force, these 20-round mags were a joke. -
let get back to coy support weapon.
other than the 60mm i think should have been in coy level, what other SUPPORT weapon you think may have or should have been in the Coy level
or
it was the best that any army can have with the number of man in a coy have. -
Actually POI thingy only started in mid 90s, POI for PDF was added role after the incident where in MY, there was infiltration by a group of terrorist where a large cache of arms were stolen from an army camp.(remember that was before 911)
POI will only be in place for important stategic locations during the time of tension( certain readiness level, but dun ask me for more detail).
As you all know,since 911, POI is done even in peace time for all possible terrorist targets. -
i know that they are bde asset which may be assigned to Bn if needed.Originally posted by Joshua1975:plese check what are the role of a sniper b4 making such comment like engage pinpoint target like MG nest. use in defense or block.
the role part i will let you guys check it up yourself.
pinpoint... MG nests? the LAW/SS for what? 1 round of 40mm from M203 isn't it better.
defence... ? where? which area of defence are you refering to? what can a sniper do when 100+ man come charging at you? little he can do from what i see.
block... ? most of the time your BN block what type of force? with 7.62mm lapua round, who is he going to block or "what" can he block?
maybe you can enlighten me with the roles of sniper with your extensive experience?
my point is, since we are talking about SUPPORT weapons here, an additional long range weapon system will be good to supplement the coy during assault. it may be deployed in the same way with the MG providing covering fire for assault force. in addition, they may also be useful in BUA situations.
in the context of defense, it's not the static defense where everyone digs a hole and fight from there. the sniper may be able to delay enemy advances much like the same way obstacles are use. it is also well known that sharpshooters are often deployed to watch over key strategic points where obstacles are to prevent or delay the enemy from overcoming the obstacles
blocking is mission dependant therefore i'm not implying that the sniper may be useful in every context. i just feel that sniper asset is a good complement at coy level. don't need too many, juz a pair at coy HQ would suffice
Thanks. -
SOP? i dun know how much you know about "SOP", SOP as SAF as a whole or each unit SOP. or you had oni 1 SOP for all type of OPS.Originally posted by gary1910:Is this SOP, no right.You are giving example where there is need of indirect fire,but none is available, or due to terrain where vehicle cannot reach etc.
my example... maybe INF had not done that at all or you had never come across but that is what CDO and GDS unit had done. for this i think you may put it as unit SOP.
And if you need every man to carry one mortar round, then that it is improvise, cannot be considered as standard coy level weapon, becos what happen if the coy is ambush before reaching FUP???Then what abt the 120mm mortar in SP coy, with range of 9km, where are they? With that range, it amybe able to manuever into position to support.
1st we must know that no way a 120mm can be manpack.
I heard that 120mm will replace the 81, it maybe due to the much longer range.
2nd not all position as you put it 'amybe' able to manuever into.
3rd maybe you had not come across where 1 coy had to be on it own and away from 120mm support.
from you above quote, do you know the deployment of mortar in the 1st place and after firing by what SOP(timing) the mortar must pull out?
FYI, 81mm had been fully replace, oni some reserve unit going ROD and CDO are still using 81mm. even CDO are replacing as some had say in the forums here.If the need to have more firepower, I will rather have my men carry more 7.62 for MG or more grenade for M203 or 5.56 for SAW etc.
good that you know standard weapon/ammo load or what most call contact rates.
Anyway , there is reason why there is standard weapon/ammo load for each man, they are calculated so that the men will not carry too much load and get too tired too soon before the mission and yet sufficient ammo for the mission.quote: becos 60mm mortar is an indirect weapon which is usually use in defilade. "to add range 75m to 1000m" we need to have arty trained officer for that squad. just hand-held 60mm we are talking here.
as for you quote. i like to refresh you that i am talking about handheld 60mm and not the standard full 60mm.
so can i say when i ask 4 X M203 to fire together in a box formation, an arty trained officer must be around because it oso an indirect fire type?
Becos it is an indirect weapon, at time it will be use behind a hill etc, so the mortar team will not know the exact location of the enemy, rey only on info from the friendly troops, thus it need a well trained arty officer to calculate the right elevation & azimuth.
M203 is more or less a direct fire weapon, the firer will see where the rounds land, mortar is not, they are totally different.
refresh again... i am talking about 60mm mortar and the inpact it has are diff from M203 40mm round. -
to bring in a new system, not oni must make full use of it cap, one must look into the command part. who can give detail ops to them? OC? he will be tied up with coy planning and meeting higher command order. with sniper under his command... hum, i dun think so.Originally posted by 12qwaszx:i know that they are bde asset which may be assigned to Bn if needed.
maybe you can enlighten me with the roles of sniper with your extensive experience?
my point is, since we are talking about SUPPORT weapons here, an additional long range weapon system will be good to supplement the coy during assault. it may be deployed in the same way with the MG providing covering fire for assault force. in addition, they may also be useful in BUA situations.
in the context of defense, it's not the static defense where everyone digs a hole and fight from there. the sniper may be able to delay enemy advances much like the same way obstacles are use. it is also well known that sharpshooters are often deployed to watch over key strategic points where obstacles are to prevent or delay the enemy from overcoming the obstacles
blocking is mission dependant therefore i'm not implying that the sniper may be useful in every context. i just feel that sniper asset is a good complement at coy level. don't need too many, juz a pair at coy HQ would suffice
Thanks.
with sniper cap... role of sniper will be clear to you and why SAF had move it up to Bde level.
good that you mention sharpshooters and we used to have oni 9 in 1 coy and now with SAR21 we have more.that is why i dun see the needs of 2 more sniper in a coy level...
i am not saying sniper is no good for a coy but i feel it should be better use and of better use at higher level to max it cap as we will be fighting in a very diff context from the rest of the world army.
hope this is tactful enough... -
one has bring in sniper as coy support. anyone else think we should have other support weapon in a rifle coy.Originally posted by Joshua1975:let get back to coy support weapon.
other than the 60mm i think should have been in coy level, what other SUPPORT weapon you think may have or should have been in the Coy level
or
it was the best that any army can have with the number of man in a coy have. -
SOP? i dun know how much you know about "SOP", SOP as SAF as a whole or each unit SOP. or you had oni 1 SOP for all type of OPS.
As I said , the procedure you mentioned is improvising becos as you mentioned, SP coy mortar might not able to support, thus:
my example... maybe INF had not done that at all or you had never come across but that is what CDO and GDS unit had done. for this i think you may put it as unit SOP.
1st we must know that no way a 120mm can be manpack.
2nd not all position as you put it 'amybe' able to manuever into.
3rd maybe you had not come across where 1 coy had to be on it own and away from 120mm support.
from you above quote, do you know the deployment of mortar in the 1st place and after firing by what SOP(timing) the mortar must pull out?
FYI, 81mm had been fully replace, oni some reserve unit going ROD and CDO are still using 81mm. even CDO are replacing as some had say in the forums here.
1) the some lower calibre mortar will have to manpack .
2) mortar ammo need to be carry by majority of riflemen (adding load to the men)
The problem is not all the time that you need to do that becos SP coy mortar coy could still support the coy like:
1) during BN level missions,or
2) SP coy might still able to manuever into poistion to support due to it's long range.
So , it is not neccessary to have a 60mm mortar as standard coy weapon, becos you dun need it all the time.Improvise could still be done if the need arises.
As I mentioned manpackable weapon like SLWAGL might be even better & practical option, becos :
1)the ammo load do not have to be shared within the coy, adding load to them.
2) the ammo will always be handy, whereas the mortar rounds will be all over with all the riflemen,based on the solution you have mentioned. -
The 60mm mortar last saw widespread use in WW2 and probably Korea. It was already obsolete after WW2 as the 81mm got introduced. The Soviets, if I'm not wrong, also switched from a similar light calibre (61mm?) to a medium (82mm) calibre for standard infantry mortar.Originally posted by Joshua1975:let get back to coy support weapon.
other than the 60mm i think should have been in coy level, what other SUPPORT weapon you think may have or should have been in the Coy level
or
it was the best that any army can have with the number of man in a coy have.
The 60mm was considered too weak.
The successful use of the 40mm GL during Vietnam completely made the 60mm obsolete as for almost the same bang, the 60mm was too heavy and not half as mobile or versatile.
Only the 81mm delivered a bang big enough to be considered artillery.
Tell you what I think is a definite must have for coy support. It is already in our arsenal and we probably already deploying this:
The AGL.
Our 40mm AGL is supposedly the lightest in the world blah blah blah...
This thing can lay down a fearsome amount of firepower - accurately - to completely saturate a small area. Furthermore, they also have a airburst mode, I think. This will kill people in trenches and behind cover. Can you imagine if you got a group of enemy infantry in the sights of your AGL? You would jsut tear them to peices.
The Chinese PLA also have developed a long barrel AGL that looks like a bazooka. The rounds are in a drum. -
many say i like to nitpick... hazi... but some like to drill on the not sure, never done b4, unknown...Originally posted by gary1910:As I said , the procedure you mentioned is improvising becos as you mentioned, SP coy mortar might not able to support, thus:
1) the some lower calibre mortar will have to manpack .
2) mortar ammo need to be carry by majority of riflemen (adding load to the men)
The problem is not all the time that you need to do that becos SP coy mortar coy could still support the coy like:
1) during BN level missions,or
2) SP coy might still able to manuever into poistion to support due to it's long range.
So , it is not neccessary to have a 60mm mortar as standard coy weapon, becos you dun need it all the time.Improvise could still be done if the need arises.
As I mentioned manpackable weapon like SLWAGL might be even better & practical option, becos :
1)the ammo load do not have to be shared within the coy, adding load to them.
2) the ammo will always be handy, whereas the mortar rounds will be all over with all the riflemen, the solution you have mentioned.
pick less than i think, hahaaaa...
60mm round, 1kg+/- each. 1 tube, 2 man, 1 X gunner 2 round and 1 X assit. 4 round.
1 coy 4 tube. just like 84mmRR section but less man than a 84 section. it is to supplement the 84mm.
and please, you bring in AGL, than please put in the data of range, how many you want in a coy, what are the inpact it will have on the enemy, and of cause what weight each AGL weights etc.
just keep it a healthy discussion.. i am sure you know some other stuff which i had no idea at all... and dun ask me to go to the other forums like the last time.