Coy support weapon.
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good this is healthy. stand you point why it good and that it. anyone think other wise than we can futher discuss.Originally posted by tvdog:The 60mm mortar last saw widespread use in WW2 and probably Korea. It was already obsolete after WW2 as the 81mm got introduced. The Soviets, if I'm not wrong, also switched from a similar light calibre (61mm?) to a medium (82mm) calibre for standard infantry mortar.
The 60mm was considered too weak.
The successful use of the 40mm GL during Vietnam completely made the 60mm obsolete as for almost the same bang, the 60mm was too heavy and not half as mobile or versatile.
Only the 81mm delivered a bang big enough to be considered artillery.
Tell you what I think is a definite must have for coy support. It is already in our arsenal and we probably already deploying this:
The AGL.
Our 40mm AGL is supposedly the lightest in the world blah blah blah...
This thing can lay down a fearsome amount of firepower - accurately - to completely saturate a small area. Furthermore, they also have a airburst mode, I think. This will kill people in trenches and behind cover. Can you imagine if you got a group of enemy infantry in the sights of your AGL? You would jsut tear them to peices.
The Chinese PLA also have developed a long barrel AGL that looks like a bazooka. The rounds are in a drum.
just want to know, any one carry/manpack a AGL 40mm b4? what is the weight? light role firing (if there is one, i am not sure because of the recoil), what are the hitting rate? anyone had any idea of the AGL 20mm that is going on? -
it's too heavy to be carried. it's mounted on vehicle.
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that will be the AGL... some have bring out the SLWAGL which is 14kg oni... just 0.2kg less than the 84mmRR without biopot and the scope i think...Originally posted by nismoS132:it's too heavy to be carried. it's mounted on vehicle.
which i think none have seem SLWAGL or i should say fired one at all. -
There are quite a number of manpackable AGL in the market or under development.
1)From Russian , we have AGS-30 30mm automatic grenade launcher:
Technical Characteristics
Calibre, mm 30
Rate of fire, shot/min 400
Range of fire, m up to 1700
Mass with a mount without a set of combat ammunition, kg 16
Mass of a box with 30 shots, kg 13.7
Set of combat ammunition of a system, pcs 90
Sight optical PAG 17,
mechanical
http://www.zid.ru/en/products/military/ags-30.html
2)From Slovek Republic , we have the RAG-30 30mm automatic grenade launcher:
Technical Characteristics
Calibre: 30 mm
Muzzle velocity: 185 m/s
Weight :11,7 kg with the empty magazine and bipod
13,2 kg with the full magazine and bipod
Effective fire range 600 m with mechanical sights
1,200 m with optical sights
Maximal fire range :1,700 m
http://www.technopol.sk/military/index.php?s=products/rag_30
3) PRC Type87 35mm automatic grenade launcher
The Type 87 (also known as QLZ87) 35 mm automatic grenade launcher (AGL) is an air-cooled, blowback operated, fully automatic weapon and is crew transportable (12~20 kg) with limited amounts of ammunition. It can fire a variety of 35 mm grenades stored in the 6-, 9-, or 12-round cartridge drum.
http://www.sinodefence.com/army/crewserved/mg_35.asp
4)US XM307, a lightweight, 25mm portable grenade machine gun
General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products
Specifications
System
Weight 50 Pounds (19.05 kg) (Gun, Mount, and Fire Control)
Fire Control Full Solution, Day/Night
Portability Two-Man Portable & Vehicle Mountable
Stability Up to 18-Inch Tripod Height
Environmental Operationally Insensitive to Conditions
Gun
Rate of Fire 260 Shots per Minute, Automatic or Semi-Automatic
Dispersion Less than 1.5 Mils, One Sigma Radius
Range Lethal and Suppressive Out to 2,000 Meters
Ammunition High-Explosive Airbursting, Armor Piercing, and Training Ammunition
5) Lastly of course is our ST Engg's 40mm SLWAGL:
Recoil suppose to be half of conventional AGL
Weight : 14kg( not sure whether with tripod)
Range :Max 2200m Effective 1500m
http://www.stengg.com/upload/193C4Bj7HPYd3nG5FYZ.pdf -
good...
i bring out 60mm handheld mortar. 4 tube and 6 round per tube. add 8 pax.
some say a pair of sniper should add in the coy support weapon. add 2 pax
one say AGL 40mm or less with all data.
just 2 ques, so how many AGL should be in the coy as a support weapon and how many pax are we going to add in?
anyone else have other weapon that you think will do good for the coy. -
The US 60mm mortar has a range of up to 1.8km. Weapon weighs 19kg. Each bomb weighs 1.36kg. Crew of 2 minimum (but who's gonna carry all your ammo?)
Joshua describes the handheld version as I presume they are needed in the assault role and not simply support role.
Thee handheld version is much lighter at probably 4 - 5kg but has a range of only 320m and isn't accurate. Uses the same 1.36kg bomb, I assume.
But it seems to me that other than a bigger and heavier bomb, the light mortar is actually inferior in most aspects to a 40mm grenade platform - in general.
Besides being inaccurate, it is a crew-served weapon that is slower to deploy and aim, and because of the big calibre you carry less rounds of ammo.
So the existing M203 or a AGL with a range of 300 - 500m should do very well as the Rifle Company's own arty support.
Other options for coy support?
PLA is testing a laser rifle - no kidding... This laser rifle can fore a beam of laser that is so powerful that it can (theoretically) blind enemy tank crew or aircraft pilots. They already have this device mounted on most of their modern tanks as a kind of anti-aircraft defence.
Why is this laser good? The rifleman may not be able to carry a RR powerful enough to disable a modern day MBT. But the laser can blind a driver, gunner or cmd if you aim at the sight apertures and gun sights of the tank.
But since I feel that the 40mm platform for the company level is best, we should develop some more ammo for it.
I think there can be battlefield uses for the CS gas and flashbang if we can develop very powerful versions of these 2 SWAT favourites.
Another kind of 40mm ordnance should be some kind of a super WP round that's more flammable for burn longer than current WP.
The Swiss or the Swedes have developed a super fragmentation hand grenade that has ball-bearings glued to the outside of the grenade with resin for extra wounding possibilities. we should have that, too. -
Actually there are two type 40mm grenade, there is the low-velocity 40x46mm which used by handheld or attached type like M203.Originally posted by tvdog:So the existing M203 or a AGL with a range of 300 - 500m should do very well as the Rifle Company's own arty support.
The 40mm AGLs use the high-velocity 40x53 ammo which has max range of 2.2km, effective range 1.5km.
The Russain standard 30mm AGL has max range of 1.7km, effective range of 1.2km.
So for 40mm AGL, it certainly out range the older 60mm commando mortar by 50%, and also at a much higher rate fire than any 60mm mortar, thus give much more punch.
I have not fired a 40mm AGL before so I can't comment on the accuracy, but if I am to base on the accuracy of M203, then the AGL is certainly more accurate than the mortar. -
to add some visual. ok the pic show not the 60mm but a lighter version, the 51mm. for HE rounds it can go out to a range of approximately 750m and weight at 0.92kg. just for info oni.
carry of ammo had being discuss, anyway, here 1 tube 6 round each. gunner carry 2 and asst carry 4. take it 1.5kg(actual is 1.36kg) each round and about 6kg for the asst. i think it ok with 6kg compare with 2 X HEAT and 2 X HE that the 84mm asst have to carry of which 1 X HEAT is at 3kg. and i like to have 4 tube and 24 rounds in a Coy. just for refresh... the Hand-held mood will oni be barrel + base plate M1 ~ 16lbs + 4.5lbs = 20.5lbs. that is 9.299kg.
weight is one point i always think of. with all the data given, i did not count but looks heavy to me... more heavier than what i give for the 60mm mortar.
next to be mobile. the ST SLWAGL is at 14kg. round not counted yet. any 84mmRR gunner here?
next AGL hitting at 300m - 500m? rapid fire? recoil? check with light strike and they will tell you. you need not check at all, just think how is the recoil when you fire 40mm HEDP from a M203 will do. and how many piece do you wish to have in you Coy?
i dun think the laser thing can be in here yet. i will keep it to myself. btw it fcuking heavy back in 2001. maybe now lighter liao, i dun know.Originally posted by tvdog:The US 60mm mortar has a range of up to 1.8km. Weapon weighs 19kg. Each bomb weighs 1.36kg. Crew of 2 minimum (but who's gonna carry all your ammo?)
Joshua describes the handheld version as I presume they are needed in the assault role and not simply support role.
Thee handheld version is much lighter at probably 4 - 5kg but has a range of only 320m and isn't accurate. Uses the same 1.36kg bomb, I assume.
But it seems to me that other than a bigger and heavier bomb, the light mortar is actually inferior in most aspects to a 40mm grenade platform - in general.
Besides being inaccurate, it is a crew-served weapon that is slower to deploy and aim, and because of the big calibre you carry less rounds of ammo.
So the AGL with a range of 300 - 500m should do very well as the Rifle Company's own arty support.
Other options for coy support?
PLA is testing a laser rifle - no kidding... This laser rifle can fore a beam of laser that is so powerful that it can (theoretically) blind enemy tank crew or aircraft pilots. They already have this device mounted on most of their modern tanks as a kind of anti-aircraft defence.
Why is this laser good? The rifleman may not be able to carry a RR powerful enough to disable a modern day MBT. But the laser can blind a driver, gunner or cmd if you aim at the sight apertures and gun sights of the tank.
But since I feel that the 40mm platform for the company level is best, we should develop some more ammo for it.
I think there can be battlefield uses for the CS gas and flashbang if we can develop very powerful versions of these 2 SWAT favourites.
Another kind of 40mm ordnance should be some kind of a super WP round that's more flammable for burn longer than current WP.
The Swiss or the Swedes have developed a super fragmentation hand grenade that has ball-bearings glued to the outside of the grenade with resin for extra wounding possibilities. we should have that, too. -
some time say the range but forget the weight, than when come to weight forget the range and the armament.Originally posted by gary1910:Actually there are two type 40mm grenade, there is the low-velocity 40x46mm which used by handheld or attached type like M203.
The 40mm AGLs use the high-velocity 40x53 ammo which has max range of 2.2km, effective range 1.5km.
The Russain standard 30mm AGL has max range of 1.7km, effective range of 1.2km.
So for 40mm AGL, it certainly out range the older 60mm commando mortar by 50%, and also at a much higher rate fire than any 60mm mortar, thus give much more punch.
I have not fired a 40mm AGL before so I can't comment on the accuracy, but if I am to base on the accuracy of M203, then the AGL is certainly more accurate than the mortar.
Russain standard 30mm AGL from the given data...
the Gun it self is 16kg.
Mass of a box with 30 shots, kg 13.7
oh... forget that i ever bring out this 30mm AGL from your given data.
40mm accuracy ~ better than the mortar? yes and it should be that way but it doesn't when it on light role (without tripod.) tripod = more weight. rapid fire without a tripod... i dun know what % of accuracy we are talking now?
care to give the weight of a box of 40mm HEDP rounds? if you are going to say bring less round, than i think the AGL is too heavy to carry around when rounds are used up. -
Standard AGL is all too heavy thus vehicle mounted and certainly not portable.
Thus military industry designed & produced the light weight version of AGL is mainly for infantry, manpackable.
Based on info gathered so far, the SLWAGL is abt 14kg, it is suppose to be have half the recoil of standard AGL like the Mk19 or CIS 40 AGL.
And all ST produced 40x53mm ammo weight 350gm.
If you add in ABMS , the FCS with batteries will add another 6.5kg.
Making the entire system to weight abt 20.5kg
I have already posted the US 25mm version, if the US adopt this, then the 25mm could be next NATO standard for light weight AGL.
Then it will be wise for ST Engg to produced a 25mm version SLWAGL which mean substantial weight reduction.
So it maybe wise for SAF to wait for development in US. -
caliber getting smaller.
anyway anyone know anything about the 20mm... -
I've seen this pic before. This could be the British new Light Mortar or the old WW2 2-inch mortar.
Specs for the British WW2 2-inch (50.8mm) mortar. The max range is 457m. Tube weighs 4.1kg. Bomb weighs 1.02kg each.
The old 2-inch has a lever (trigger) for firing, unlike conventional mortar where you drop the bomb in. Although this makes firing slow, having a trigger mechanism makes it possible to fire the old 2-inch almost horizontal like a grenade launcher.
The British still uses the old 2-inch for "firing flares and other pyrotechnics".
Just looking at the way the handheld tube is aimed gives you an idea of what kind of precision we are talking about. -
picture taken from here
http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0099.html
The 51mm Light Mortar is a Platoon level, indirect fire weapon that can be carried and fired by one man. The mortar is used to fire smoke, illuminating and HE rounds out to a range of approximately 750m; a short range insert device enables the weapon to be used in close quarter battle situations with accuracy.
Range 750m
Bomb Weight 800 grams (illumination),
900 grams (smoke),
920 grams (High Explosive)
Rapid Rate of Fire 8 rounds per minute
Length of barrel 700mm
Weight Complete 6.275 kg
Calibre 51.25mm
picture taken from here
http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/pw/pw_lm.htm
and all this was posted here way back.
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=88871
comfrim not the 2-inch.Originally posted by tvdog:I've seen this pic before. This could be the British new Light Mortar or the old WW2 2-inch mortar.
Specs for the British WW2 2-inch (50.8mm) mortar. The max range is 457m. Tube weighs 4.1kg. Bomb weighs 1.02kg each.
The old 2-inch has a lever (trigger) for firing, unlike conventional mortar where you drop the bomb in. Although this makes firing slow, having a trigger mechanism makes it possible to fire the old 2-inch almost horizontal like a grenade launcher.
The British still uses the old 2-inch for "firing flares and other pyrotechnics".
Just looking at the way the handheld tube is aimed gives you an idea of what kind of precision we are talking about. -
Interesting. But why is the Brits the only people still using this concept of a Squad/Platoon level Light Mortar? Most armies now depend on the M203-type grenade launchers. But it seems that the Brits have few M203 in their ranks as their SA-80 is sledom seen with any type of GL attached.
Anyone can throw any light here? Do they use rifle underslung 40mm GL at all?
In WW2, the US had the 60mm (both baseplate and handheld version), the Japs had the "knee mortar" and the Germans had a overly-complicated 50mm). The Jap version was more of a grenade launcher than a true mortar.
What are the pros and cons of modern day GL (Grenade Launcher) vs LM (Light Mortar)? -
Actually it is not whether AGL will be a standard infantry weapon in most army but rather when will it be a standard infantry weapon.
Handheld grenade launcher was already found to be very effective in Vietnam war, later came strapped on type like M203 which is so popular that practically every army have it now .
Next came the AGL with the higher velocity grenade, it is also became a standard weapon in most armies.
But the problem with conventional AGL, is that it is too heavy , thus only vehicle mounted, but that did not stop the AGL from been adopted.
I have posted number of manpackable version of AGLs that are either in the market or developing, it will next best thing for most army in the world. -
The Brits are now using the SA80s with the AG36 40mm grenade launcher made by HK. There are 2 per section. This is very recent - starting with units in Iraq.Originally posted by tvdog:Interesting. But why is the Brits the only people still using this concept of a Squad/Platoon level Light Mortar? Most armies now depend on the M203-type grenade launchers. But it seems that the Brits have few M203 in their ranks as their SA-80 is sledom seen with any type of GL attached.
Anyone can throw any light here? Do they use rifle underslung 40mm GL at all?
In WW2, the US had the 60mm (both baseplate and handheld version), the Japs had the "knee mortar" and the Germans had a overly-complicated 50mm). The Jap version was more of a grenade launcher than a true mortar.
What are the pros and cons of modern day GL (Grenade Launcher) vs LM (Light Mortar)? -
If the Brits already have 40mm in the sections, then what specific purpose do the 51mm Light Mortars serve?
What can the Light Mortars do that the 40mm GL cannot? -
Oh, most IDF tanks have a Light Mortar - probably 60mm - mounted on the turret roof for the commander for anti-personnel defence and battlefield illum.
On the new Merkava it is now internally mounted to fire through the turret roof. -
it the trajectory that the round has and oso of the diff in caliber meaning diff impactOriginally posted by tvdog:If the Brits already have 40mm in the sections, then what specific purpose do the 51mm Light Mortars serve?
What can the Light Mortars do that the 40mm GL cannot? -
this was in the other topic Section/Platoon Fire Power.
the point of bringing out this is not to put down that CO for asking an impossible from his OC.Originally posted by Joshua1975:just to bring out some points where i had come across many a time. and to let all keep thinking...
during ATEC, both side will have umpire with them. there is this 1 time(in taiwan) where i was task to be an O/FP. i had a section plus (OPFOR) together with GPMG and my section LMG on high ground looking over a river bed. distance 800m.
the ATEC ex. troop appear on the river bed with Coy strength. this 'good' umpire come to me and tell me that if i start firing my MMG for 5min i will cause them 1 casualty. i was like wtf.
i call in arty, take a smoke and wait... coy fast re-org after arty and carry on moving.(it was a very open area) they still have not spot my position yet. once near in 600m. i start to engage the Coy minus (due to the arty earlier.)
btw, OPFOR are using/simulate small arm of 7.62mm.
that it... the coy was like sitting duck right below me on the river bed. 600m away from me, other than the GPMG and 84mmRR there is nothing much that they can hit me with. (for ex. play, in real life i will take them out at 650m or even more if i can.)
with fire movement back to my final positions. the last man from that coy just manage to touch the bottom of my final position and it was game over for that coy.
there is no fire support for that coy at all which later i find out from the OC (he is my Coy 2IC in my last unit) his CO had told him to capture my position on his own without and fire support? wtf? just for that mission the BN fail.
the thing is do we need one more Coy Support Weapon? As with just 84mmRR, i saw and feel it just not enough. takes time to get in position. take note of black blast, heavy weight at 16.1kg, need 2 pax to operate.
that is why i feel the 60mm mortar is the best to have in the coy as a support weapon.
it light, easy one man operate, strong fire power. with 4 tube, it sure cause a big impact on the other side. i agree on the SLWAGL but weight is one thing we really need to look into and with smaller caliber the 30mm or even the 25mm, than what impact will it have than. yes it may have easy rapic fire but that means carry more rounds.
in this situation that the coy is facing. they are on the low/inferiors ground, the river bed where else i am on the high ground. trajectory are in play.
think about it. if you are AGL gunner and on the river bed, what are you going to face? what firing position are you going to take? -
Why no arty support? Why no air cover? Why moving along such a open terrain like a riverbed - a whole company?
Why no scout or advance party? Why no troops moving along the high ground providing flank security?
The coy you faced were doomed from the start. They don't deserve to win and from what you described, they sounded like a bunch of amatuers.
Whether or not they had their own mortars would not have saved them from arty or airstrike.
During the second phase when they were engaged by your GPMGs at 650m, your fire would not have been too devastating so there would still be time to plan something better thought out than a frontal assault of your position.
There were many similar real situations where US troops were tasked to take on enemy well-entrenched in high ground in Korea and Vietnam. Very very heavy US arty and airstrikes including napalm against these positions proved useless as the defences were so well-built.
So even if the company you faced had 4 tubes of 51mm mortars and 50 rounds of HE it may not have made a big difference if your position was well-dug-in. Furthermore, being handheld with no proper aiming device, these mortars aren't accurate to say the least, even less so at 650m.
If I had them, I would use them to fire smoke to cover my advance to your position.
In the end, it will still be up to infantry suffering very heavy casualties to take these hills. Hamburger Hill in Vietnam and Pork Chop Hill in Korea are only 2 of many examples. -
so nice see so many WHY was ask in here in this topic. more so from a platoon runner. where are all the 'planner' and tacticians. hazi...
no one can give you a good answer at all at this point of time even some of the STARs, BGs and MGs in SAF can't. even for me had done 1 BTEC, 2 ATEC with Operation Unit and later with ATEC, in the OPFOR and in ATEC HQ, those question you had ask i had asked and guys b4 me had as well. all can told us was that main point is to test the command and planning. soldiering skill are up to the unit to drill the man in. that is why now ATEC have 2 phases.
on the point of AIR Support, why it not in play? Air Force will tell you please dun waste their time??? believe it or not, someone from the top say it not ECONOMINCAL. when i heard that, i was like... WTF
anyone who had done the BDE live firing will know. our 'bomber' just do a 'Nation Day' fly pass without any drop.
one more point... what SAF have, i think the enemy oso have. it a MTC for the BN... put yourself in the enemy position or in this case, my position. dun i have air support with me? remember i can and have call arty on them. i think in real war it will be something like this... ground force fighting and in the sky we will have the dog fight going on at the smae time, same area.
on the fire support part... as i had say b4, some unit are are going to do ops which a Coy or even the whole BN will have minium support from the BDE up to DIV. if that is happening to the BDE, than within a BN, 1 of the Coy without the BN 81mm or now the 120mm support is NORMAL.
on why move in the open ... you dun get to plan where the enemy position himself. do you?
if you need to get to him even you have to move in the open you have to. (i had say it a very open area, meaning no high ground to your advantage) if your advance party or the scout can give you this much info, this will be that much and that it.(btw, in real war, you will have air photos with you that it still fresh, it can be taken just 3 hours ago b4 you had it)
if you had to be in the open than you will had to be in the open or you telling me wait for the trees to grow...
using of smoke for cover... yes but it a double edge sword.
for that ex...(ATEC can't plan so many types of ex for all unit, some ex are used and ue=sed again.) the norm for that ex is the BN do movement to contact from point A to my position which will be the last point. i dun know why that CO had ask his OC to take my position right at the start. as you can see from here. the other 2 Coy are moving from point A, ie to say all fire support will be given to the main body, that is why this coy had no fire support at all.
again, there is no wrong or right answer when it come to tactics. 
it last man standing that WIN.
forget, btw my position was oni a O/FP, which was about 1k away from my base. it was so open that my PC from the top over look what is happening at my position..i dun think any one will dug in for this position when it was oni a O/FP. the real dug in will be the final position which they are going to take.
i dun know what make you think that the 60mm are not accurate when fire handheld. had you drop off a round into the tube b4? if yes, i had nothing to say. -
The route was probably already scouted by both BRC and CRT. However, their job is only to find a route that is passable by a coy and that will bring the coy into position to attack the enemy. So probably, by the time you set up your ambush, both BRC and CRT is long gone.Originally posted by Joshua1975:so nice see so many WHY was ask in here in this topic. more so from a platoon runner. where are all the 'planner' and tacticians. hazi...
no one can give you a good answer at all at this point of time even some of the STARs, BGs and MGs in SAF can't. even for me had done 1 BTEC, 2 ATEC with Operation Unit and later with ATEC, in the OPFOR and in ATEC HQ, those question you had ask i had asked and guys b4 me had as well. all can told us was that main point is to test the command and planning. soldiering skill are up to the unit to drill the man in. that is why now ATEC have 2 phases.
on the point of AIR Support, why it not in play? Air Force will tell you please dun waste their time??? believe it or not, someone from the top say it not ECONOMINCAL. when i heard that, i was like... WTF
anyone who had done the BDE live firing will know. our 'bomber' just do a 'Nation Day' fly pass without any drop.
one more point... what SAF have, i think the enemy oso have. it a MTC for the BN... put yourself in the enemy position or in this case, my position. dun i have air support with me? remember i can and have call arty on them. i think in real war it will be something like this... ground force fighting and in the sky we will have the dog fight going on at the smae time, same area.
on the fire support part... as i had say b4, some unit are are going to do ops which a Coy or even the whole BN will have minium support from the BDE up to DIV. if that is happening to the BDE, than within a BN, 1 of the Coy without the BN 81mm or now the 120mm support is NORMAL.
on why move in the open ... you dun get to plan where the enemy position himself. do you?
if you need to get to him even you have to move in the open you have to. (i had say it a very open area, meaning no high ground to your advantage) if your advance party or the scout can give you this much info, this will be that much and that it.(btw, in real war, you will have air photos with you that it still fresh, it can be taken just 3 hours ago b4 you had it)
if you had to be in the open than you will had to be in the open or you telling me wait for the trees to grow...
using of smoke for cover... yes but it a double edge sword.
for that ex...(ATEC can't plan so many types of ex for all unit, some ex are used and ue=sed again.) the norm for that ex is the BN do movement to contact from point A to my position which will be the last point. i dun know why that CO had ask his OC to take my position right at the start. as you can see from here. the other 2 Coy are moving from point A, ie to say all fire support will be given to the main body, that is why this coy had no fire support at all.
again, there is no wrong or right answer when it come to tactics. it last man standing that WIN.
forget, btw my position was oni a O/FP, which was about 1k away from my base. it was so open that my PC from the top over look what is happening at my position..i dun think any one will dug in for this position when it was oni a O/FP. the real dug in will be the final position which they are going to take.
i dun know what make you think that the 60mm are not accurate when fire handheld. had you drop off a round into the tube b4? if yes, i had nothing to say.
Why did you choose that position btw? I did POL for one coy before, and i realise that the CRT is not very tactical in marking out the route. Instead of relying on map, memory and gps, they threw cylume straws on the ground. At Night, the cylume straws would have been very obvious. Sure enough, the enemy diverted the coy into an ambush later in the night (i heard).
Re air support, i think even if CAS was available, i dun think it would have helped them. This is because there is usually no Forward Air Controllers in the coy and the airplane will not dare to attack for fear of friendly fire. -
hope you did not mis read... my position... i am the opfor if you had miss out.Originally posted by lwflee:The route was probably already scouted by both BRC and CRT. However, their job is only to find a route that is passable by a coy and that will bring the coy into position to attack the enemy. So probably, by the time you set up your ambush, both BRC and CRT is long gone.
Why did you choose that position btw? I did POL for one coy before, and i realise that the CRT is not very tactical in marking out the route. Instead of relying on map, memory and gps, they threw cylume straws on the ground. At Night, the cylume straws would have been very obvious. Sure enough, the enemy diverted the coy into an ambush later in the night (i heard).
Re air support, i think even if CAS was available, i dun think it would have helped them. This is because there is usually no Forward Air Controllers in the coy and the airplane will not dare to attack for fear of friendly fire.
those had met us, the 1st OPFOR in 96 to 97 knows very well that the scout and CRT can't give much info to the BN and Coy at all and many unit Scout platoon, CRT and FOs were capture by us.
the best, most talk about was CDO ATEC in Thailand,(the case where my OC was butt stroke that very night) the whole scout platoon was capture during the day and some 'technical adjustment' was done that the PS was to 'give back' to the BN.
the BN basically go in blind during the nite.
and just another example happen in SG, another unit, the CRT was capture by my platoon and out of 'good will' we had mark out the route for the BN... -
Well, I may just be a runner but there is one thing I know is: how to save my ass. (But I also spent a great deal of time during NS in the Bde S2 branch.)Originally posted by Joshua1975:so nice see so many WHY was ask in here in this topic. more so from a platoon runner.
no one can give you a good answer at all at this point of time
using of smoke for cover... yes but it a double edge sword.
i dun know what make you think that the 60mm are not accurate when fire handheld. had you drop off a round into the tube b4? if yes, i had nothing to say.
If my coy is tasked to walk across a wide open ground with surrounding high ground, I'm sure every man and his dog will be thinking the same questions. It's no't a matter of "if" the enemy will be on the high ground, but a question of "where and when" they will strike. The scenario you described is like those guys below just offered themselves for target practice.
Of course, I have read enough to know that a lot of stupidity occur in even the best armies and a lot of stupid orders are always handed out so men can get slaughtered on hopeless missions.
For sure I am only speculating that the handheld mortar is inaccurate. But, as there are no aiming devices as far as I can see, I cannot comprehend how you can fire it accurately, especially at the engagement distance you discribed. 600m is damn far away. Even on a clear day in an open ground, a human at 600m is a mere speck. A human sitting is a trench or behind cover you will likely not be able to see without optics.
Firing the handheld mortar will be like firing from the hip: you have to "walk" your rounds onto target. And a hand can't be that steady. And you need the whole shebang to accurately walk your rounds onto target at 600m.
You would need a commander/spotter to direct your rounds. For a handheld mortar, it would sound something like this: "...OK OK, now bend your elbows a little bit. Next your wrist you have to turn 3 degree to the right. Now hold it steady and give me one round of HE." And when you reach for the ammo your hand holding the mortar tube shifts.
Also, from all that I have read of all the WW2 handheld mortars, they all said the same thing. That's why the M203 quickly replaced them.
Smoke will not be a double edged sword cos you engaged me at a distance of 600m. Only my GPMG and 84mm can return fire. This is beyond the effective range of my infantry with their 5.56mm weapons. So all they can do is to advance under the cover of smoke to get close enough to return fire.
All those who survive the initial 300m can redeploy to a leap frog type attack. And I think casualty rate from 2 GPMG firing from 600, 500m will be manageable. One platoon cover, 2 platoons move. All their weapons like M16, SAW and M-203 can be brought into play at this point.
One more thing I don't understand is how come after the initial barrage you don't continue to call for more arty on the attacking infantry?