Bull-Pup vs. Conventional
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As per above topic..which is more ergonomically suited to the soldier?
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Well, it's something like SAR-21 vs M-16.
SAR-21 is highly ergonomical. The shooter can easily hold it snugly against his shoulder. The center of gravity is also much closer to the shooter's body. In contrast, M-16 can't really be snugly held, and its center of gravity is further out.
Of course, SAR-21 is still heavier.
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I feel conventional more efficient for fast combat reloading. I personally have no hint of love for the bull-pups.
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Well,SAR21 is actually not a bad weapon but look at the procedures one have to go through just to actually change a magazine in combat. And besides this,the selector is in the butt...hate this part most!
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I guess you can't have it all....
Until someone can design a perfect weapon with the ergonomics of bullpups and the weight and ease of reloading of conventional weapons, we're going to have to make do with what we have. -
Conventional, definitely.
I don't ride in a armoured vehicle, while I did a lot of FIBUA and FOFO, I never felt the M16 to be too long. And I love the balance as the weight is very evenly distributed. And it's light and accurate. Also the conventional layout is good for buttstrokes and bayonet fighting.
For the sake of saving a bit of length by switching from M16 to bullpup SAR-21, the tradeoffs are too much.
Slow magazine change. Heavier. Odd selector switch location. No bayonet lug. No provision of good iron sights (optical scopes are prone to damage, fogging and fungus).
M16 is one of the few weapons you can reload super fast using just one hand.
To be really fast you should reload before your existing magazine completely empties. This eliminates the need to ease spring, re-cock etc.
You can simply press the mag release so the existing mag with a few rounds left can drop out. While you're releasing the existing mag your left hand is already pulling out a fresh mag from your ammo pouch. As soon as the old mag falls out you can plug in the new one and continue firing. -
how does conventional look like?
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picture the M16Originally posted by martin_lim85:how does conventional look like?
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One of the members in our gun club recently bought a Bushmaster M17S Bullpup carbine, and I had the opportunity to shoot it recently.
As I recall, the trigger was pretty awful (it felt very "spongey" and had an indistinct break), and the pistol grip was raked a bit too far forward for my comfort. But it seemed to be pretty accurate (I managed a sub-4" group at 100 yards with a standard red-dot sight).
However, I was exceedingly uncomfortable with the fact that the firing chamber was RIGHT NEXT to the shooter's head. On a conventional AR-15, the firing chamber is located at the front of the upper receiver, some distance from the shooter's face, where a chamber rupture (caused by an overcharged cartridge or obstructed bore) would probably not cause any injuries. On a Bullpup design, if the chamber lets go, I wonder if the shooter will get a faceful of shrapnel.
MG -
Not with the SAR-21 -- it has a patented Kevlar plate that will protect you from any chamber explosion. It's the only bullpup with this feature. And yes, it has been tested against real faces with real chamber explosions.
I think it comes down to what you're used to. If the first gun you shot was conventional, your muscle memory will favor it and bullpups will always be awkward. And vice versa. -
Actually,I've got no chance to perform a combat reloading for the MP5 series of weapons yet.But so far feel that the M16/M4/Car-15 series of weapons does allow really really quick reloading.
The magazine release for MP5 or G3 are like the Ak style...so perhaps needs alittle more time to perform a perfect change. -
not tt i dislike sar21... but i hate the fact tt i can't attach a bayonet onto it
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Originally posted by SpecOps87:Actually,I've got no chance to perform a combat reloading for the MP5 series of weapons yet.But so far feel that the M16/M4/Car-15 series of weapons does allow really really quick reloading.
The magazine release for MP5 or G3 are like the Ak style...so perhaps needs alittle more time to perform a perfect change.
The MP5 has BOTH the AK-style lever mag release AND the M16-style button release. It is located above the lever release just behind the mag housing. Only problem is that it is too far away for my finger and needs a lot of strength to operate. It sits in the depression. -
bull pup looks more cool ok so stfu.
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Its not a matter of how the weapon looks...its about how practical the weapon is in combat.You can go into combat dressed to look like a spaceage warrior...but then...it will not gurantee 100% survavilability also no point what.Even if you get Styer AUG or SAR21,you can't fight well...also LPPL wat...
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Sar 21
+Good for use in the jungle...small..compact...
-Ironsights like crap
-Scope fogged up..die liao
-LAD down at nite...lagi chialat
-front heavy...bad for long patrols(depending on user)
M16
+kinda balanced..
+ergonomic(to me at least)
+sights are tried and tested
-not hip maybe....
dunno wat else to add... -
SAR21 is better for a temperate forest or grassland than a jungle due to the optics fogging.Originally posted by Rockhound:Sar 21
+Good for use in the jungle...small..compact...
-Ironsights like crap
-Scope fogged up..die liao
-LAD down at nite...lagi chialat
-front heavy...bad for long patrols(depending on user)
M16
+kinda balanced..
+ergonomic(to me at least)
+sights are tried and tested
-not hip maybe....
dunno wat else to add...
As I have said, producing a SAR21 with a picatinny rail is better than the OEM integrated scope/LAD combi at the moment -
dont need to recock when combat loadingOriginally posted by tvdog:To be really fast you should reload before your existing magazine completely empties. This eliminates the need to ease spring, re-cock etc. -
No, we dun have to stfu. This is a forum for discussion, not for arse-kissing.Originally posted by the.raven:bull pup looks more cool ok so stfu.
If length is the factor, carbines more then make up for it. Combat effeciency-wise, my lot is currently with the M4. The SAR21 has too much useless clutter. -
Obersturmfuhrer, wat unit are you in mate?
Btw..tot that SAF using the Car-15 all along...only time I saw M4 is SOF.Pardon my ignorance.. -
kinda forget the complete combat reloading procedures for sar 21 and m16...
anyone cares to take the trouble to post here? thanks -
m16...Originally posted by TVaddict:kinda forget the complete combat reloading procedures for sar 21 and m16...
anyone cares to take the trouble to post here? thanks
bang bang bang
Oh crap....empty.....chialat..
unload magazine...
put in new magazine...
ease spring
start killing more ppl -
sar21?Originally posted by Rockhound:m16...
bang bang bang
Oh crap....empty.....chialat..
unload magazine...
put in new magazine...
ease spring
start killing more ppl -
I own all these types of weapons! although I wish I get to play with the SAR21 !
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/davechng/Guns/guns.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/davechng/Guns/IMG_0472.jpg
Here is my opinion to the bullpup!
Bullpup has its advantage over conevntional but also has its down side.
1) Advantage being it is very well balance compared to the conventional which usually have a muzzle heaviness becasue of the heavier barrel ( on HK G3, FAL, M16A2 type weapon) the bullpup having the barrel push back actually makes it balance much better.
2) Bullpup can have much longer barrel, My AUG having 20" barrel is shorter than my 14.5" M4 or the AK74. thus for little bullet like the 5.56 that requires hi velocity for the 5.56 to do its wonder, the barrel length will help significantly.
3) Ergonomics, some people like it but I do not ! the mag release is in a awkward position! but again a toss since some people argue they like it!
Disadvantage,
1) not able to switch left to right..The AUG do have an left hand bolt ! but do not know if the SAR21 is capable of switching!.FAMAS can be swithc over to lefthadn also! and during tactical movement your strong sweep is easier but the weak sweep side you have to shift your body position much more.
2) basic ergo I feel the M16 series weapon is much easier to handle faster!
3) trigger is much more difficult to be as crisp ! due to the design of the bullpup , the trigger bar is far forward and needs and actuating rod to the disconnector ! thus in pure physics its harder to tune a good trigger ( but again we are not talking about sniper or precision rifle so this factor is usually overlook)!
As for the MP-5 over the M16, well! mag release is of the latch AK type ! the button release ( unless you have very looong finger) you can never reach it ! not even my Special forces freinds here in the US can reach it... the cocking lever is awkward, you have to reach out to get to the cocking handle ! MP5 is easy! but the G3 or the HK33 is very difficult ! and the MP5 do not hold the bolt open on last round( unless you get the newer MP-5 40 or 10 which has the bolt release add on)! to load a fully loaded mp5 mags !it is usually easier to load it with the cocking handle open! this goes with teh G3 and HK33. ! ergonomically the HK system really is BAD compared to the M16! in all ways! Howevr it does have a better sights than the M16 ! but than when we are using Aimpoint, EOtech or ACOG ! who cares about the iron sights!
The M16 family still have its place But I wish someone will come out with a good , perfect piston system and we can all live happily ever after!
DAveC! -
I wished they'd introduced SOPMOD for our carbines instead of forcing us into using the SAR21 wholesale. I really hate the feel of it.
