Bull-Pup vs. Conventional
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Oh well.Things never really change do they..and our carbines are one of the skimpiest in the world..metal fatigue too.Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:I wished they'd introduced SOPMOD for our carbines instead of forcing us into using the SAR21 wholesale. I really hate the feel of it. -
SOPMOD is still in reality an M4 carbine with a flat top, Full auto lower, in M4 profile 1:7 twist barrel. with the Knights industries RAS2 rails, forward grip, PAC4 laser and maybe a M68 Aimpint M2 scope or the ACOG TA-01NSN ..
THe basic problem of the M16 still exsisits which is fundamentally flawed.
Gas being blow back into the bolt carrier and creating that crystalized carbon in your bolt. We do 5 days training in Gunsite AZ that goes thru 4000 rds in that duration both semi and Full auto ! We see a lot of jams ( IA drills) in the AZ desert. with proper cleaning technique and maintainance this can be reduce but not eliminated. I have personally seen SIG 550 series and Valemet , AK and FNC weapons that does the same drills with no jam !
Not putting down the M16 system ( I do love them and own a few of them ) but it has an inherit flaw in the system.
Also, the magazine system of the M16 is another problem! You do not know "positively" if the mag is inserted properly espeically it is fully loaded. even the you tap it when you insert the mag...Also! if fullu loaded mags !sometimes after prolong use, the spring tension and the shitty follower ( we had to change to a newer type follower, I hope SAF look into that! ) . Well! the new Heckler and Kock design M16 magazine helps in curing some of the problem! but it is the weak link of the M16.!
Yes! the US ARMY, spec ops love the system, like any other system, if you train the user properly, and they know how to handle it ! the system will work good. However, if there is a better system and an improvement over it will help ease the inherit problem, than it may be a good idea to look into it.
IN fact Heckler and Koch recenlt release the HK M16 conversion that incorporate a piston ( like the AK, Steyr, SIG) system..... Hopfully this will be marketed soon! call the HK M416!
can;t wait to get my hands on them!
http://www.hkdefense.us/pages/military-le/rifles-carbines/hk416.html
DaveC! -
Care to elaborate more?Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:I wished they'd introduced SOPMOD for our carbines instead of forcing us into using the SAR21 wholesale. I really hate the feel of it. -
FOr INfantry use, the SAR21 seems to be the right choice!
A very compact ( shorter than any M4 with 14.5" barrel or an AK 74 with 16" barrel) but the SAR21 have the advantage of the 20" barrel!
The 20" will help in getting a 300 yd shot and having the round still effective! M4 would be good to 100 or less to be effective.
CHronographing a 20" Steyr AUG with SS109 62 grain ammo we getting 3000 fps compared to a 14.5" M4 which comes to 2650 fps!
DAveC!
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Are you sure about this? My 64 gr. reloads (Winchester 64 gr. PP projectile, 24 gr. AA2230, OAL 2.255" ) chrono about 2890 fps out of the 15" barrel of my M4, and about 3020 fps out of my 20" AR.Originally posted by davechng:CHronographing a 20" Steyr AUG with SS109 62 grain ammo we getting 3000 fps compared to a 14.5" M4 which comes to 2650 fps!
DAveC!
MG -
Doesn't really make a difference to me... Can't see more than 50 Meters in the jungle anyways.
And besides jungle, the only other terrain we'd be facing is urban terrain... Not more than 300meters there...
The SAR21 was built to our specifications, hence our "issued" version is strictly for our own usage. Export models will probably have custom specs. -
Yessir,
I am chronographing the ammunition from my Steyr AUG 20" and a Bushmaster M4, 14.5 barrel with 1:9 twsit barrel.
The ammunition use is the SPanish Santa Babbra SS109 62 grain and British Radway Green SS109. Also I did a comparison with the Winchester white box 55 grain Q3131a M193 ammunition
Using Shooting Chrony F2 chronograph... Temprature was in the range of 75 degree F.
Your load seems to chrono very hot ,,,
DaveC -
Well, going by Lyman's 47th Reloading Handbook, the "never exceed" velocity of a 63 gr. projectile (they don't have data for a 64 gr. projectile) with a maximum charge of AA2230 (24.5 gr.) is 3154 fps out of a 20" barrel, so 3020 fps should be comfortably within the envelope. 2890 fps out of the shorter 15" barrel should also be well within comfort limits.Originally posted by davechng:Yessir,
I am chronographing the ammunition from my Steyr AUG 20" and a Bushmaster M4, 14.5 barrel with 1:9 twsit barrel.
The ammunition use is the SPanish Santa Babbra SS109 62 grain and British Radway Green SS109. Also I did a comparison with the Winchester white box 55 grain Q3131a M193 ammunition
Using Shooting Chrony F2 chronograph... Temprature was in the range of 75 degree F.
Your load seems to chrono very hot ,,,
DaveC
I use a different recipe for my 24" varmint AR: a 75 gr. Hornady HPBT projectile with 21.2 gr. of milsurp WC844 powder, at an OAL of 2.255", for a mean velocity of about 2450 fps. It took quite a bit of experimenting to work up to this load, but it seems to be fairly accurate. This is typical of the groups I'm getting with this load at 100 yards:
And at 200 yards:
There is certainly still room for improvement, as we have several competitive AR shooters in our club who, at 200 yards, shoot groups that can be covered with a quarter. I've seen it done!
MG -
Well, it says a lot about the common soldier that he can't find a way to enter this discussion about match ammo..
Sigh.Now you see the difference. -
Well, the "common soldier" has a lot more to worry about than keeping all of his shots in the ten-ring. Like trying to stay alive and not get shot on the battlefield.
Here's a "family portrait" of the cartridges that I currently handload and shoot:
From left to right: 223 Rem., 7.62 x 39mm, 8mm Mauser, 30-06, 44 Mag., 357 Mag., 38 Special, 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 9mm.
MG -
Just wondering, since my AUG and M16 are all 1:9 twist barrel, would the heavy 70 grain bullet stablized with this barrel twist??
Anyway! the 5.56 rifle that I am firing is not really match grade rifle, so I mostly use surplus M193 or M855 ammunition... so far, the cheapest M193 we are getting is the SOuth African and the WInchester Q3131 white box stuff. SS109 is mainly the Lake City M855 and the British Radway green SS109. All shot well with the Bushmaster M16 and the AUG ... also the Galil ARM.
YEs! Shooting precision and factory ammo is defeintly 2 different world ! I reload for my precision rifle mainly in 308 .
DaveC! -
Dave,Originally posted by davechng:Just wondering, since my AUG and M16 are all 1:9 twist barrel, would the heavy 70 grain bullet stablized with this barrel twist??
Anyway! the 5.56 rifle that I am firing is not really match grade rifle, so I mostly use surplus M193 or M855 ammunition... so far, the cheapest M193 we are getting is the SOuth African and the WInchester Q3131 white box stuff. SS109 is mainly the Lake City M855 and the British Radway green SS109. All shot well with the Bushmaster M16 and the AUG ... also the Galil ARM.
YEs! Shooting precision and factory ammo is defeintly 2 different world ! I reload for my precision rifle mainly in 308 .
DaveC!
Take a look at this website:
www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#m855zero
It explains the concept of barrel twist rate vs. projectile weight in great detail.
The 1:9 twist in your 223 barrels should be able to properly stabilize the majority of 55 to 62 gr. projectiles, such as the ones you've mentioned, out to a minimum of around 300 yards. Heavier projectiles will require a faster twist rate to properly stabilize over greater distances.
MG -
Thanks ! thats a good site.. good info also!
YEah! I treid some of the new 77 grain ammo and my 1:9 twsit barrel don;t do very well!
will stay with 63 grain or less for my rifle !Anywya !my setup is for not more than 400 yd enegament!
I am using an ACOG TA-01NSN and the ELcan scope, the calibration is done on a 62 grain M855 ammo ... so pretty much I have to stay with the SS109 loading since others will have different POI if I shoot it at diffeernt range and cannot use to pre-Cammed rectical or adjustments on the scope!
I tried the normal 55 grain M193 and the rectical cam do not coincide with the bullet drop compensation on the ACOG and elcan!
SIngapore INfantry use to have a sharp shooter scope ! I forgot what power it uses and also if they come with a bullet drop compensation.... Any comments on that??
DaveC! -
The SAF sharpshooter scope is 3x power. Very basic.
The common infantryman cannot assimilate so much information. Most infantry engagements in our environment is going to be 100m and less. And it will likely be instinctive shooting that would kill your enemy, not an aimed shot. Its the stress of the battle and the fleeting target that would cause the common soldier to squeeze off on an opportunistic and instincitve basis. Applies in urban and jungle warfare.
As for the officers and specs, we don't even get the chance most times to squeeze off a few rounds. Most of the time, is ensuring no one ends up shooting his friend, making sure that the troops are deployed and covering correct, spotting the enemy and directing fire (to the best ability, considering what I just said about instinctive shooting and battle stress). So, no chance even at officer or NCO level, to practice the theories , even if we have the ability to read up on it. -
I remeber using the sharpshooter scope once... but never remebr what type it is... So! no bullet drop cam or anything??
Such a shame!
Shooting scopes have evolved so muh nowadays! With the scopes like the ACOG and ELCAN! we can do very precise shot up to 500 meter with ease.
I guess SAF will take a while to realize that!
DaveC! -
I used the sharpshooter's scope once.
We were deployed at the beach and some angmo girls in bikinis were waterskiing. We all took turns to have a look through the section shaprshooter's scope.
Damn, all I can say is magnification not enough! -
Hahaha.... you actually stumbled on one of the useful features of the sharpshooter scope. It is commonly used by the infantryman as a sort of spotter scope, since not all chaps are issued with the binoculars.
By the way, it is not meant to be a sniper scope, since this is a different instrument altogether. The sharpshooter scope is just to enhance the infantry sections firepower by enabling some of the chaps to lay down more accurate covering fire. It is not meant to pick-off targets at long distances... but it enables the section leader to have more options for covering fire during an assault. -
Using a mounted riflescope as a spotting scope might be useful out in the battlefield, but doing likewise in a non-military situation (say, when hunting) can potentially get you into deep trouble, especially if you use it to identify people. Why? Something else besides the scope is being aimed at the subject.
MG -
Am alittle curious here...is the section marksman's weapon a specially modified M16S1 fitted with a scope and is only able to fire in the semi-automatic mode or is it just a standard "stock" M16S1 fitted with a scope?
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I may be wrong, but I would imagine the latter, the reason being that if the scope is damaged, it can quickly be dismounted and the rifle reverted back to a standard-issue M16S1 with iron sights and full-auto capability.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Am alittle curious here...is the section marksman's weapon a specially modified M16S1 fitted with a scope and is only able to fire in the semi-automatic mode or is it just a standard "stock" M16S1 fitted with a scope?
MG -
The sharpshooter weapon is a stock M16S1, no modification or refinement as far as I could tell. Maybe they were specially pre-selected for their accuracy.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Am alittle curious here...is the section marksman's weapon a specially modified M16S1 fitted with a scope and is only able to fire in the semi-automatic mode or is it just a standard "stock" M16S1 fitted with a scope?
They can fire full-auto.
Our CIS license permits only producing the standard M16S1. All the CAR-15 I saw were imported from Colt USA. -
The sharpshooter rifle during our times in the early 1990s are stock M16 rifle. the scope is mounted on top of the carrying handle ! From my experience with M16, this way of mounting would havemounted the scope way too high! and a cheek piece will be necesary to get the correct sight alignment.
People may argue with me that it will work but trust me, with these kind of scope setup, the cheek position is important and without the cheekpiece on the buttstock, shooter will not have proper sight alignement. thus POI will change at furter distance.
Reason why the newer M4 and M16 A3 has the flat top to properly mount the scope!
DaveC! -
Well...read somewhere that the H&K G3 Assualt rifles in the sharpshooter config. as well as the IMI Galil were specially picked fpr their accuracy.So wondering if the SAF has the same policy for adoption.
Anyway...anyone has anything to say about the use of 3 round burst settings on automatic weapons?feel that its pretty useless...as most operators will select the mode to be in SEMI or AUTO.read somewhere that US miitary is also doing away with the 3-round burst function. -
The sharpshooter scope is nothing more than a tube with 2 lenses that sits snugly into the channel of the carrying handle. When mounted the reticle will be about 1cm higher than the iron sights - if I remember correctly. You are right in that it is less comfortable and providing a cheek piece would help.Originally posted by davechng:The sharpshooter rifle during our times in the early 1990s are stock M16 rifle. the scope is mounted on top of the carrying handle ! From my experience with M16, this way of mounting would havemounted the scope way too high! and a cheek piece will be necesary to get the correct sight alignment.
DaveC!
The thing about SAF rifle platoon sharpshooters is that the people selected to be sharpshooters are not necessarily the best shooters.
On the other hand, I constantly achieve marksmen grade at CTSS since recruit but I ended up as the platoon runner. I hardly get a chance to fire any shots during contact as I'm too busy talking on the 12kg PRC-77 radioset and trying to keep up with the PC. (Once in the confusion I called for MG fire too early and would've wiped out one of our section had the PC not quickly countermanded the order.)
Have you noticed that in the Russian army, the infantry sharpshooters are all armed with the SVD Dragunov? This is the same weapon that their true snipers use. I think this is because there isn't anything you can do to make the AK47 round accurate enough. The Dragunov uses the old 7.62x54mm. -
The section sharpshooter is not meant to be a sniper in the true sense. They are supposed to be "upgraded" riflemen with a low mag scope, just to give the rifle section some accurate covering fire. Accurate fire can also be used as harassing fire on the enemy, without wasting too much ammo.
Anyway, I heard many cases of the scope being damaged or lost in close terrain. It is an expensive piece of kit for the rifleman to pay up. Most of the time, the platoon chips in to help pay for the lost scope. More trouble than is worth.