Re: Bayonets ?
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That's for sure, but every bit of kit, no matter how small, adds to the combat load. If something's going to be added to that load, it has to earn its place.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Like i have posted earlier on, I would definitely love to go into combat with one more weapon then one less weapon.How bout you? -
You are tenacious but you are thick.Originally posted by Gedanken:You still haven't addressed the point of your putting that article up.
This thread is about the relevance of bayonets.
The articles I posted are about bayonet use in recent times.
Can you put one and one together or do I have to spoonfeed you everything? -
Sorry, i haven't gone to search google about this incidents? But where there only 20 Argylls? I read the post that tvdog posted... never said anything about having only 20 argylls wad.
Besides, there isn't much point in arguing. We weren't there, we don't know the circumstances are exactly. But from what I heard, the iraqi insurgents aren't exactly the most proficient riflemen to begin with. Most of them would just stick out their rifles, and put a long squeeze on their AK-47s.
I'm not surprised if a regular infantry platoon can produce similar results. Besides, in the report, it mentioned mortar support. I figured the insurgent probably broke off and ran for it as the mortar barrage started.
As for the bayonet incident... well, I won't consider it a smart thing to do. Then again, I guess we won't know what kinda effects a demonstration of aggression such as fixing bayonet had on the opposition.
Its like the question I asked my sect comd in bmt. "Why do we charge at the enemy immediately?" It was about the "Enemy Right, Charge" Command. We were told that if we spotted the enemy less than 20 meters or 30 meters on either of our flanks, we'd charge immediately at them. The best answer he could come up with was, "Well, cos there isn't much else left to do." -
There has never been any dispute that the bayonet charge took place in the incident. But...Originally posted by tvdog:You are tenacious but you are thick.
This thread is about the relevance of bayonets.
The articles I posted are about bayonet use in recent times.
Can you put one and one together or do I have to spoonfeed you everything?
WAS THE BAYONET USED?
We don't know if those 35 dead Iraqis were shot or skewered, of if indeed they were still alive at the time the Argylls fixed bayonets, and we don't know if the nine captured gave up upon the sight of the bayonets or for some other reason.
The article does nothing to provide evidence in favour of bayonet use in modern day combat. You're the one being thick if you're going to leap to the conclusion that bayonets are effective, based upon what has been reported in the article. -
HELLO THIS IS NOT YOUR GRANDFATHER'S FORUM OK?
Keep up anymore personal attacks and i will see to it that this thread be closed and the culprit who started the flame war get banned.
Yours sincerely mod. -
Someone did not clean the gene pool well enough.Apparently they also did not place enough chlorine there too.But well, we shall move on and discuss this thread more objectively.Originally posted by tvdog:If you feel details are not enough for you, why don't you stop speculating yourself as to what happen. You think you know?
C'mon.
Yah, right. Fascimilie blah blah you have met people from the forum etc. Of course you have. Of course you exist, it's not some stupid machine who's typing under the name of Gedanken, is it? So you're a real person. But not a commando. So wake up from your fantasy. Nothing you've said so far gives anyone the impression of one.
For one, you're a little too bi.tchy to be a commando, all talk and nothing else. You've probably sucked a few of your commando boyfriends off but that doesn't qualify you as a Commando.
Seems we have a another little bi.tch in heat yapping here by the name of LaserLordz. Be still.
Let's just ignore this doofus. -
tvdog,please stop showing us your idiocy.Ged is a real-life commando.How do I know?I have met him.as he mentioned,a lot of other people on these forums have met him.I don't really want this discussion to degenerate into some flame war started by some troll with a personal grudge.if you want to sort it out,please meet him personally.He has already made that offer before to various persons and to you as well.
As for the bayonets,I figure it is a a good weapon for emergencies and CQB and still has it uses,but wouldn't a machete strapped to our thighs serve as a better weapon?It would certainly be more flexible in usage than a bayonet,and more lethal. -
i suggest this thread to be closed it down
With those junks in it just make this forum ugly -
i suggest we stick to the topic and stop mentioning anything about the commando thinngy. If everybody cooperates, this thread wouldn't need to be closed.
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Thanks. I started this thread because i think the lack of bayonet lugs, and the abolishing of bayonet fighting in our training syllabus are serious issues, it would be good to hear more opinions on this, so let's stick to knife talk huh ....
cheers . -
Lest I be misunderstood, I'm in favour of carrying a bladed weapon, just not necessarily a bayonet. The Kukhri and the Fairbairn-Sykes have their place in history and similar weapons have their place in modern-day combat. Rather than having it as an emergency weapon, though, I see the key function of such a weapon in situations where discharging a firearm would be a disadvantage.
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My only gripe about the bayonets in the SAF is the poor quality and the lack fo any sharp biting point.Dammit..my bayonet could not even do a clean slice of my combat ration pouch.
I'm still in favor of the bayonet as part of the soldier's equipment.But the role of a back-up weapon should still be that of a pistol.The bayonet/rifle combination is only effective if proper training is given and received. -
Frankly, in the history of warfare,I'm pretty sure the bayonet has earned its place.But in modern times, how often is the bayonet used? As we are so accustomed to pushing the red button and resulting in massive death and destruction kilometers away and question the importance and significance of using a weapon that requires you to be upclose and personal with the enemy combatant.
Also consider this,lets say you are in a FIBUA situation now.You are firing your M16 or SAR21 and the next thing you know, your mag is empty or you encounter and IA. You have a Glock or Berreta strapped to your right thigh and a bayonet attached to your rifle.A single enemy trooper suddenly appears 10m infront of you, do you :
(a) Charge him with your bayonet equipped rifle? or
(b) Unholster your sidearm and start putting rounds in his direction?
I dunnoe bout you guys, but I would definitely pick option B and advance while shooting and once the mag is empty, charge him with the bayonet. -
OK, so the bayonet is a last resort. But then, carrying the pistol out to war also increases the combat load.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Frankly, in the history of warfare,I'm pretty sure the bayonet has earned its place.But in modern times, how often is the bayonet used? As we are so accustomed to pushing the red button and resulting in massive death and destruction kilometers away and question the importance and significance of using a weapon that requires you to be upclose and personal with the enemy combatant.
Also consider this,lets say you are in a FIBUA situation now.You are firing your M16 or SAR21 and the next thing you know, your mag is empty or you encounter and IA. You have a Glock or Berreta strapped to your right thigh and a bayonet attached to your rifle.A single enemy trooper suddenly appears 10m infront of you, do you :
(a) Charge him with your bayonet equipped rifle? or
(b) Unholster your sidearm and start putting rounds in his direction?
I dunnoe bout you guys, but I would definitely pick option B and advance while shooting and once the mag is empty, charge him with the bayonet.
How about unarmed combat? What is the purpose of us going for grading? -
Perhaps unarmed combat can be a combo with the bayonet fighting.
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Yes, if the bayonets that are issued, were just that bit better...
I remember once we were trying to open one of those biscuit tins with a bayonet, and the tip broke off!! A stupid tin broke the bayonet! Sheesh! Had to sign extra for that.
Also perhaps if the bayonet was made a tad longer. At least with the M16 there was some reach when you stuck it out. But now with the SAR21, the shorter length just lessens the effectiveness. -
But my first choice will still be a pistol.. Give me a Glock 19, SIG Sauer P228.. altho I still have a soft spot for the Browing M1935.
So between a bayonet and a pistol, I'll take the pistol anyday. -
Mind you, pistol in a thigh holster would be nice to have, but yeah, gedaken raised a good point about weight, a bayonet would be still be lighter than an SAF standard issue P226 and two spare mags, and, those who have fired a pistol would agree with me, firing a handgun is NOT easy ! ... learning how to shoot a pistol will take quite a bit more training and practise than learning how to shoot a rifle to pass ATP (read: more ammo costs), and good point again about an edged weapon being good for despatching sentries etc ... i'm sure even those who're not for bayonet fighting per se would agree that a good combat/survival knife would be good to have, armed combat beats unarmed combat any day ....
and longish bayonets would not be a good idea i think, it would only be an encumbrance ... of course bayonet fighting with a short bullpup rifle like the SAR 21 would be different from fighting with an M16S1, no buttstrokes for one,
.... and the key to fighting with a bullpup rifle is to parry the first thrusts and get inside the enemy's frontal arc of movement, with an M16, you'd parry and thrust at arm's length, with a bullpup however, you'd keep your rifle close in to your body, parry the thrust, and move in close to stick it in, because you're inside his frontal arc of movement, once his first thrust is parried away, because of your momentem and proximity, he basically will have no way to counter your own thrusts. conventional bayonet tactics doesn't work with a bullpup rifle, simply because there's not enough reach, but some pundits have claimed that a bullpup rifles are actually more effective bayonet fighting weapons than conventional rifles, because of what i've described above ...
over to you guys ...
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I posted 2 articles about recent bayonet use without reference to anyone or anything. This is the bayonet topic, am I right?Originally posted by CenturionMBT:i suggest we stick to the topic and stop mentioning anything about the commando thinngy. If everybody cooperates, this thread wouldn't need to be closed.
But from his vast dictionary of insults the sharp-tongued Gedanken quickly called it "wanton" and a "testosterone tornado".
I don't start fights but everytime this boy attacks me without provocation I'm responding in kind, and I'm not seeking your permission, sorry.
If you don't like to see fights then you tell this CBM to stand down. He can disagree like a man without making personal attacks like a spiteful housewife.
What must have angered Ged was that someone should post evidence of recent bayonet use when he was building a case for how obsolete the bayonet has become.
Whether or not the 35 Iraqi dead were stabbed or shot is irrelevant. The important thing was that the Argylls ran out of ammo - the insurgents didn't.
And you can't really hide the fact that you have no ammo for very long.
So the Argylls gambled with a bayonet charge that somehow worked and drove/scared the insurgents away. With bayonet attached to rifles, the insurgents would not immediately know the rifles are empty. But had the Argylls ran at the enemy with knives, machetes - and someone mentioned "entrenching tool" - the results would've been very different.
Furthermore, the modern-style bayonet used by the Brits SA-80 is no longer the crude piece of steel that our M-16 bayonet was. They look and function like fighting knives with a wire-cutting capability when combined with the scabbard.
So anyone who says there is a need for a "edged-weapon" but not a bayonet, well... the bayonet is now also a knife.
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Sorry mods, but the post above is so far off the mark I'm compelled to set things straight.
Time to wake your ideas up, tvdog. The "testosterone tornado" comment clearly referred to the journalists and publications that jumped on the bandwagon after The Sun published its article.
If you read it as a reference to yourself, you're either seriously egocentric or astoundingly paranoid.
I didn't attack you - you imagined you were being attacked and started a fight that you now claim you didn't.
I wasn't angered at all, although I'll admit I was a bit annoyed by The Sun's usual brand of gonzo journalism. I expect that some of the more widely-read amongst us will be well aware of The Sun's poor reputation, and would appreciate that the comments I made about it are not at all surprising.
On to other points:
Again, there's nothing to state that the insurgents had ammo while the Argylls ran out - please read carefully. All subsequent conclusions, being based upon this unsubstantiated assumption, are therefore invalid.
As for the remainder of the post, I'm glad you agree. -
Not to stray off-topic, but I am curious: what aspect(s) of operating a handgun would you consider as being difficult?Originally posted by Fatum:and, those who have fired a pistol would agree with me, firing a handgun is NOT easy ! ... learning how to shoot a pistol will take quite a bit more training and practise than learning how to shoot a rifle to pass ATP (read: more ammo costs)
MG -
firing a handgun takes lots of practice to achieve some type of accuracy.
it isn't as easy as just point and shoot.
then of course there is the maintaining it.
actually now, lose bayonet, sign extra (lots) or minor charge (no db), sign 1206. can you imagine lose P226? -
I lost mine during a night exercise. Had to sign 3 confinements for that, in addition to the 1206.Originally posted by insouciant:actually now, lose bayonet, sign extra (lots) or minor charge (no db), sign 1206. can you imagine lose P226? -
i've shot Glock 17s and Beratta 92Fs before, the recoil and posture takes a lot getting used to, because of the slide's actions, there's a tendency pistols to jump upwards, unlike a full sized assault rifle, a handgun's recoil would be felt full along the wrist ... perhaps it's because i'm just a neophyte handgun shooter, but i think, certainly, that attaining a reasonable level of proficiency with a pistol would take more cost (in time and ammo money) than learning how to shoot an assault rifle properly. and i doubt if the average built SAF trooper can handle a full sized 9mm cartridge ...Originally posted by Meia Gisborn:Not to stray off-topic, but I am curious: what aspect(s) of operating a handgun would you consider as being difficult?
MG
and, even if you set costs issues aside, there's the logistic aspects to consider, another small arm means another type of ammo to cater for, magazines, spares, maintenance personnel to be trained, etc, yet another load on your logistics train ...
actually, Ged got me thinking with his posts about how an edged weapon would be good for certain functions (when discharging your weapon would not be appropriate ) i think the utility for a bayonet would perhaps differ with vocations and specialities ... certain vocations would have different space and weight constraints, and would also use the bayonet differently too. I think LRRP coys and recce folks would no doubt want as short and handy a weapon as possible, and a bayonet for tankees and AI troopers would probably be next to useless, but the infantryman i think, would still find the bayonet (on the rifle) useful for certain situations.
over to you guys again ... -
Wouldn't know - my bloody OC cancelled all the 9mm weapons lessons (MP5, Uzi, P226 and P7) because he couldn't be arsed indenting the ammo. I was bloody looking forward to those lessons too.Originally posted by Meia Gisborn:Not to stray off-topic, but I am curious: what aspect(s) of operating a handgun would you consider as being difficult?
MG
Ah well, I may as well sign up for IPSC some time next year.