Re: Bayonets ?
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I think the bayonet has its place in the mordern army. However, the SAF bayonet that i was issued was pretty much useless. I think it needs to be designed so that it can be used not only as a thrusting weapon, but also as a cutting weapon. Anyway, If i were to have to charge the enemy, i would rather have a bayonet at the end of my weapon than not.
Re the inscresing emphasis on UC and the removal of bayonet trg, i think the army made a mistake. Instead of learning how to kick, i think a soldier should first know how to properly use his weapon as an effective melee weapon. It wont take long, and would be infinitely more useful.
In Summary, Bring back the bayonet! But make sure there is Proper and comprehensive trg on bayonet use (You can lose the pugil? stick fighting thank you very much)!
Edited for spelling -
Well, i've fired a couple of revolvers and handguns before (No, i do not know what they were) and TBH, i think its a no brainer. Obviously, i did not shoot with much accuracy but in the context of CQB, and in the context of using it as a backup weapon. i think point n shoot accuracy is good enough.Originally posted by insouciant:firing a handgun takes lots of practice to achieve some type of accuracy.
it isn't as easy as just point and shoot.
then of course there is the maintaining it.
actually now, lose bayonet, sign extra (lots) or minor charge (no db), sign 1206. can you imagine lose P226? -
Again, it's a question of what purpose it serves. From my experiences, I don't think it's necessary as a psychological weapon.Originally posted by Fatum:actually, Ged got me thinking with his posts about how an edged weapon would be good for certain functions (when discharging your weapon would not be appropriate ) i think the utility for a bayonet would perhaps differ with vocations and specialities ... certain vocations would have different space and weight constraints, and would also use the bayonet differently too. I think LRRP coys and recce folks would no doubt want as short and handy a weapon as possible, and a bayonet for tankees and AI troopers would probably be next to useless, but the infantryman i think, would still find the bayonet (on the rifle) useful for certain situations.
Example: BTEC exercise against Guards in 1992. We're going up one side of a hill in section strength and right on the crest we bump into a platoon of enemy. Both sides are caught off guard, but we're the first to react, yelling at the tops of our voices and charging at them. I swear, it was the funniest sight watching a section chasing a platoon. Anyway, as we ran, our guys dived into the bushes one by one (we regrouped later), so that by the time the Guardsmen thought to stop and check six (if they ever did) we were long gone.
Not that this was a form of action I'd recommend in actual combat, but the combination of surprise and aggression was enough to get a numerically-superior enemy running, and the very act of charging when we should have been retreating was enough to set the enemy on the back foot and buy us time to get out of a tight spot. This was done without the bayonet, so I'd question if the bayonet is entirely necessary in this respect.
It's a good question about the application of bayonet fighting to different vocations, though. Certainly, apart from the obligatory bayonet fighting lesson in BMT, my instructors focussed on training us to make sure we didn't get a dead-man's click, and I expect that they left the rest to unarmed combat. As an aside, I honestly don't think I'd be using the stylised knife fighting moves they covered in UC - I'd be too busy trying to turn my opponent into a pincushion.
Maybe it's different within the infantry role and there is a role for bayonet fighting in infantry ops - what say you infantrymen? -
Ged, if memory serves, you're in Australia, right? I understand the handgun laws there are rather strict.Originally posted by Gedanken:Ah well, I may as well sign up for IPSC some time next year.
What equipment do you plan to use if you sign up for IPSC?
Here's the pistol I'm currently using to shoot in the Production Division of IPSC. It's a slightly modified CZ 75B in 40S&W.
MG -
Not sure of the details, but you're not allowed to carry here. I believe that handguns are to be stored in clubs, while manual loading rifles and shotguns have limited magazine capacity. Semi and full autos are out.Originally posted by Meia Gisborn:Ged, if memory serves, you're in Australia, right? I understand the handgun laws there are rather strict.
What equipment do you plan to use if you sign up for IPSC?
Here's the pistol I'm currently using to shoot in the Production Division of IPSC. It's a slightly modified CZ 75B in 40S&W.
MG
I've heard good things about Glocks, but what I might do is sign up for a club and try out the different ones they have before deciding on anything.
Nice piece - is that based on the 1911? -
Ged, from what I've read, the situation for handgun owners in Australia currently looks pretty bleak. These two threads from a firearms forum called The High Road seem to sum up the situation with the recent handgun confiscation program pretty well:Originally posted by Gedanken:Not sure of the details, but you're not allowed to carry here. I believe that handguns are to be stored in clubs, while manual loading rifles and shotguns have limited magazine capacity. Semi and full autos are out.
I've heard good things about Glocks, but what I might do is sign up for a club and try out the different ones they have before deciding on anything.
Nice piece - is that based on the 1911?
Thread 1
Thread 2
Although I do not own any Glocks, I have shot them often enough to know they are accurate and reliable handguns, if somewhat undersprung in their factory configurations. Their prevalence in IPSC competition is a testament to their popularity and capabilities; I don't think you would regret getting one. My only reason for not getting a Glock is the fact that they have unsupported firing chambers, which tend to stress reloaded brass to the point of possible failure (brand-new commercial ammo is not a problem, though).
The CZ 75 series of handguns is not based on the 1911. The former is double-stack SA/DA design while the latter is a single-stack SA design. Both are fine choices for IPSC competition, however.
MG -
AFAIK, you're still allowed to own handguns here, as long as they're stored in a gun club and not at home. That's perfectly fine by me - as it is, I'm worried about my place not being secure enough to store my watches, much less a handgun.
Anyway, I'll give the shooting association a call one of these days and clarify that. -
this reminds me...anyone here plays MSG3? in it snake uses this pistol/knife-fighting combo called CQC...i actually thought it was invented for the game... but when i read the game guide, they interviewed the military advisor for the game, and it seems he came up with the idea and has been teaching it to certain SF all over the world, and also including the Japanese SWAT team...
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Originally posted by Gedanken:Again, it's a question of what purpose it serves. From my experiences, I don't think it's necessary as a psychological weapon.
Example: BTEC exercise against Guards in 1992. We're going up one side of a hill in section strength and right on the crest we bump into a platoon of enemy. Both sides are caught off guard, but we're the first to react, yelling at the tops of our voices and charging at them. I swear, it was the funniest sight watching a section chasing a platoon. Anyway, as we ran, our guys dived into the bushes one by one (we regrouped later), so that by the time the Guardsmen thought to stop and check six (if they ever did) we were long gone.
Not that this was a form of action I'd recommend in actual combat, but the combination of surprise and aggression was enough to get a numerically-superior enemy running, and the very act of charging when we should have been retreating was enough to set the enemy on the back foot and buy us time to get out of a tight spot. This was done without the bayonet, so I'd question if the bayonet is entirely necessary in this respect.
It's a good question about the application of bayonet fighting to different vocations, though. Certainly, apart from the obligatory bayonet fighting lesson in BMT, my instructors focussed on training us to make sure we didn't get a dead-man's click, and I expect that they left the rest to unarmed combat. As an aside, I honestly don't think I'd be using the stylised knife fighting moves they covered in UC - I'd be too busy trying to turn my opponent into a pincushion.
Maybe it's different within the infantry role and there is a role for bayonet fighting in infantry ops - what say you infantrymen?
with regards to your guys charging @ a platoon. i think its more of a natural reaction due to the training that all of us recevie.I do belive those who have did BMT would have covered the basic IA drills when contacted with an enemy.
Such training is to allow the section or platoon to react quickly, almost a 2nd nature form of respond to overcome the enemy.thats why the instructors keep harping us on the basic drills.my unit OC did tell us some armies would actually break contact and then do a flank.i think it was the aussies ( not very sure on that) But then thats our army doctorine.
As for the bayonet part.I personally like to see a bayonet attachment on my SAR 21.You will never noe when will u need the bayonet to stab at someone, especially during assualt or if we have the oppourtunity to silence someone.i would use my bayonet.
I was taught to fix bayonet during any assault, but due to training safety, we are not supposed to fix it on, incase some joker trip and stab his fren. -
as far as i noe HQ infantry still make infantrymen use the bayonet even when the SAR-21 has no bayonet lug. the reason they give is that it can be used for plotting anti-personnel mine and a close combat weapon.(even though the bayonet is blunt)
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anyone still serving can confirm if the bayonet is still issued to all ? ...Originally posted by decepticon25:as far as i noe HQ infantry still make infantrymen use the bayonet even when the SAR-21 has no bayonet lug. the reason they give is that it can be used for plotting anti-personnel mine and a close combat weapon.(even though the bayonet is blunt) -
not too sure abt other units, but my unit didn't issue them after they converted to SAR 21s. even those using SAW were not issued.Not too sure if the pioneers are issued with them.Originally posted by Fatum:anyone still serving can confirm if the bayonet is still issued to all ? ... -
How else are the poor sods going to clear a minefield if they don't have bayonets?Originally posted by one-niner:Not too sure if the pioneers are issued with them.
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No doubt it is tedious, but still a necessary skill. Mines are hard to pick out in the wilderness.Originally posted by Gedanken:How else are the poor sods going to clear a minefield if they don't have bayonets? -
BANGALORE TORPEDO!Originally posted by Gedanken:How else are the poor sods going to clear a minefield if they don't have bayonets?
MG -
concur ! ... but then again ... that's why the survival rate for pioneers are so low eh ....Originally posted by Meia Gisborn:BANGALORE TORPEDO!
MG
okay ... so pioneers doesn't issue them, but then again, they have parangs and ETs and axes in their kit that can be used for close combat i suppose ....
what about other units ? .... guards, infantry, AI troopers, arty leh ? ...
anyone from these please check in ... -
In my unit we still carried bayonets even though we were armed with SAR-21. Don't ask me why - No one seems to know either.Originally posted by one-niner:not too sure abt other units, but my unit didn't issue them after they converted to SAR 21s. even those using SAW were not issued.Not too sure if the pioneers are issued with them.
But wait - aren't the pioneers equipped with those long prodding sticks to detect mines? -
Yeah, just works a little better than Western Union for telling the whole neighbourhood that you're trying to pick your way through a minefield.Originally posted by Meia Gisborn:BANGALORE TORPEDO!
MG
Actually, that's not the function of the Bangalore Torpedo. I can't remember the name of the device used for rapid clearing of AP mines, but it consists of a rocket that pulls along a length of det cord. Once the rocket burns out and lands, set off the det cord and (theoretically) the shock wave should set off any AP mines, leaving a path about a metre wide. -
you mean thisOriginally posted by Gedanken:Yeah, just works a little better than Western Union for telling the whole neighbourhood that you're trying to pick your way through a minefield.
Actually, that's not the function of the Bangalore Torpedo. I can't remember the name of the device used for rapid clearing of AP mines, but it consists of a rocket that pulls along a length of det cord. Once the rocket burns out and lands, set off the det cord and (theoretically) the shock wave should set off any AP mines, leaving a path about a metre wide.
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/mines/pomins/Pomins.html
hehe ... yeah .... bangalore torpedos are used for obstacles breeching actually, con-wire that sort of thingy, engineers out there, are you guys trained to prod with bayonet actually ? ... -
Yeah, something like that.
Our CDO demo guys are trained to clear minefields using a bayonet, so I figure the Engineers would do that as well. It's a b!tch of a job, by the way - by the time you're done with one minefield, you've got a good case of RSI happening. -
i noe i noe *waves hand frantically*Originally posted by Gedanken:Yeah, just works a little better than Western Union for telling the whole neighbourhood that you're trying to pick your way through a minefield.
Actually, that's not the function of the Bangalore Torpedo. I can't remember the name of the device used for rapid clearing of AP mines, but it consists of a rocket that pulls along a length of det cord. Once the rocket burns out and lands, set off the det cord and (theoretically) the shock wave should set off any AP mines, leaving a path about a metre wide.
my demo warrent used to call that "Koteh Babi"
its called a PLC ..Projected Line Charge. -
hmm..just talked to my pionner fren.They use this long stick called mine prodder.The bayonet is used when u don't have anything else to use. the mine prodder is a 2 piece rod with a t- shaped end.which can be broken up into 2 parks for easier carriage.Originally posted by Gedanken:How else are the poor sods going to clear a minefield if they don't have bayonets? -
There's such a thing called a mine prodder u know. Bayonets may not be long enuff to reach in. Mine prodder on the other hand... is long, and hard... sexy huh?
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As far as I know, the SAR-21 and the SAF are "firsts" in abandoning the bayonet.
Why infantry still need bayonets?
If for some unfortunate reason your position is being overrun, it is a definite plus to have a bayonet when:
• you run out of ammo
• your weapon IA
• while you are changing mags an enemy with fixed bayonet jumps into your trench
Furthermore, the SAR-21 is a bullpup which means changing mag is slower than on a M-16. So when shxt-hit-the-fan and you are fighting for your life, a fixed bayonet could prove very useful in some situations.
A fixed bayonet is still the best way of using both firepower and "stabbing power" in one package. -
Looks like most people here are against the idea of the SAF not using the bayonet.Anyway,if my memory serves me well,that time when 6 SIR was holding an exercise to showcase their capabilities,I'm very sure that I saw the troopers having a bayonet and scabbard attached to their SBO.
And recently, I went back to HQ NCC at Amoy Quee camp, when signing in at the guard post,saw inside that there are M16s fixed with the bayonet.
