M551 Sheridan Light Tanks in SAF service?
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Ahem!!! That posting is also from me.Originally posted by tvdog:Someone quoted figures of a couple of hundreds or MBT for Thailand. They include the M60 series, the M48 series, and some Chinese MBTs. I don't really buy this "SEA not suitable for MBT argument" but that discussion probably belongs on another thread.
I was trying to emphasis the point, that eventhough the Thai could get real cheap M60A3 TTS from US , for example in 1997, the Thai requested from the US 107 M60A3s TTS for only USD100mil, less than 1 mil per tank!!!
Thus they are even cheaper than the brand new LT , the Scorpion LT that they bought few years cost abt USD1mil.
In fact there are report that the Thai are going to order for 15 brand new ASCOD light tank + one command post veh and one ARV for their Royal Thai Marine Corps .
Different tank ,different role.
The Thai not just want MBT , but also want light tanks.
Here the complete tank force of Thailand:
M60A3 Main Battle Tank 150
M60A1 Main Battle Tank 53
M48A5 Main Battle Tank 105
T69-2 Main Battle Tank 108
Stingray Light Tank 106
Scorpion Light Tank 154
M41A3 Light Tank 285 -
The Thai army sure has a logistical nightmare with 7 kinds of tanks from 4 different countries...
But on the other hand we also have 5 kinds of tanks in service...
If the rumour abt a certain MBT from a certain country is true then would be 6 types currently...
Light Tanks
AMX-13SM1 (350)
AMX-10PAC-90 ( 22 )
M551 ( ? )
Main Battle Tanks
Centurion Mk 13 (100)
M60A3 (Rumoured) ( ? ) -
I dun think SAF has adopted any M551 into svc , we may have got some for evaluation only becos I dun see a role for it in SAF. SM1 is for our mechanised forces and AMX-10s are amphibious tank thus for our RDF. So for LT , we only have 2 type.Originally posted by Delta 5:Light Tanks
AMX-13SM1 (350)
AMX-10PAC-90 ( 22 )
M551 ( ? )
Main Battle Tanks
Centurion Mk 13 (100)
M60A3 (Rumoured) ( ? )
When new LT come into svc, then we will be operating 3 type of LT for awhile where we will slowly phase out the SM1 perhaps in decade or so.
As for MBTs, your guess is as good as mine!!
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No, dude, we do not have the M551 Sheridan.Originally posted by Delta 5:AMX-13SM1 (350)
AMX-10PAC-90 ( 22 )
M551 ( ? )
Centurion Mk 13 (100)
M60A3 (Rumoured) ( ? )
We do not have the M60A3 MBT variant. We have the M60 only in the AVLB and CEV variants.
If you want to believe or spread every rumour you hear that's your choice.
But I hope they are about something more substantial like Merkava or LeClerc or Abrams.
But don't spread rumour about us having yet another blooming obsolescence 40 year old vehicle like M551 Sheridan. Please...
Our armoured force is museum vintage enough already in real life. -
Aiy! We should just friggin buy some M1A2 tanks lar. U want heavy armor... thats as heavy as it gets! =)
Im' always in favor of the M1A2. Maybe without the gas turbine engine ba... hard for infantry to run around it. -
It doesn' have to be the M1A2 we buy.Originally posted by Shotgun:Aiy! We should just friggin buy some M1A2 tanks lar. U want heavy armor... thats as heavy as it gets! =)
Im' always in favor of the M1A2. Maybe without the gas turbine engine ba... hard for infantry to run around it.
Perhaps a modern light tank... something up-to-date. -
IMO we should get israeli tanks. because they are one of if not the best in urban fighting and they always mod the tanks to suit them. Yes i know sometimes they fight in the open but in the news so far always FIBUA and the tanks seem more than capable of its job. Okay long story short i guess singapore can get a variant of the Merkava.
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while the tanks/armoured vehicles are varied....they do share lots of common parts/similar parts....Like Allison transmission, Detriot engines......so i dun think logistics/repairs is that an issue....
in fact, whatever new LT that comes in to service...i think it will be a breeze for
for the techicians and workshoop guys.....after working on no-hopers like the SM1!
like someone said...the M551 is over 40 yrs old man!even if we had/did/ use them in service..they shld be retired soon..... -
Better still, we should license-build the Merkava.Originally posted by storm_freaky13:IMO we should get israeli tanks. ...... Okay long story short i guess singapore can get a variant of the Merkava.
Do you know why you don't hear much about the M-60A2? Because it had the same 152mm short-barreled missile firing gun as the M551 Sheridan. This gun is a failure and that's why both vehicles were obsolete almost as soon as they entered service.Originally posted by m113apc:like someone said...the M551 is over 40 yrs old man!even if we had/did/ use them in service..they shld be retired soon..... -
I guess the US just doesn't like to launch missile out of their gun tubes huh?
U guys heard of the STAFF "Special Top Attack Fire n Forget" round that the US Army uses?
From www.fas.orgSTAFF is a 120mm tank round thatsearches out and destroys enemy armor at distances beyond the reach of conventional munitions. As a top-attack smart munition, STAFF destroys enemy armor by flying over it and firing a highly lethal explosively formed penetrator down into its lightly armored top. No enemy armor is safe from STAFF -- whether it's moving, at long range, or in defilade. Although STAFF is primarily designed as an anti-armor round, it complements the M830A1 tank round by being highly lethal against helicopters. STAFF is unique among antiarmor munitions because of its large sensor footprint and the standoff capability of its explosively formed penetrator warhead.
STAFF requires no change to the tank turret and no unique actions by the tank crew other than setting a single range zone switch. From aiming and firing to the last stages of its operation, STAFF functions much like a conventional round. During ballistic flight, STAFF establishes a vertical reference and orients itself with the ground. In the final seconds of flight, a search and track mode is initiated. The forward-scanning millimeter wave sensor establishes a large footprint for target acquisition. The round flies over the target, rolls to align the warhead, fuzes, and then fires its lethal penetrator down into the most vulnerable area of the tank.
Alliant Techsystems developed the STAFF round. Proof of principle was demonstrated in 1990. -
M551 was considered but rejected by the SAF in the 90s.
The "Sho't"--"Tempest"--"Centurion" is a very capable beast, and should not be underestimated. Let's not forget that its not the size of the gun, its the ammunition, the optics, night vision, stabilization/fire control and the skill of the gunner which matter--not to mention the ability to reload and lay a new "G" on a 2nd target afer the first round.
There are 105mm rounds that perform far better than the M551's munitions for its 152mm Gun-launcher M81, M81 Modified, or M81E1, and the 105mm APFSDS penetrate a good deal of armor. It is quite clear that even an AMX-13 (SM1) with its 75mm APFSDS round can handle many MBTs. AMX13s are more akin to "Tank Destroyers" and infantry fire support platforms--and we have many of them. They are highly accurate firing platforms against armour when stationary, and are thus highly effective as defensive Antitank/AFV role.
Its the ammunition that counts, lets not forget that a M551 only had around 15-20 HEAT rounds--The big caliber rendered a heavy payload difficult.
Oh, and one more thing: the M551 is thinner skinned than you think: Its hull is Rolled 7039 aluminum alloy--That's the stuff your window sill is made off. You can put a hole in the M551 with a CIS 0.5" HMG firing APDS rounds any day.
Americans did not always build good tanks, and the Korean war proved that a Centurion can climb vicious terrain. (The UK forces used Centurion Mk 1s in Korea) Whereas M48 and M60 Magach MBTs were not used in the Northern Sinai peninsular during the 1973 war precisely because they were not good for climbing or rough terrain. The M60's profile is so high that its an obvious target--especially in comparison with a Centurion, or a more modern MBT.
Singapore needs to develop its own Tank/Tank Destroyer. It should be small, and have composite armor and a Front Engine configuration (as in the BX or Merkava) It needs to consider either a 105 or 120mm gun, but the key issue should be Survivability--The tanks we have now are good enough to kill theirs--the problem is whether our tankees are going to feel safe in the hulls of their AFVs. A BX VC feels safe, I doubt if any of the Tankees feel safe in their AMXs.
Keep the Faith--"Once Armour, Always Armour" -
Since we have the Bionix...why not create something out of the Bionix hull???
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Theoretically its feasible, but you need to consider in the long term, can the chassis be able to withstand the load; fatigue and stress that comes with the turret carrying a 105mm or 120mm. In fact thats probably the primary reason why ST Kinetics is taking so long to develop a tank variant from the BX chassis. If you read the opther Militarynuts forum, thereis an article on this development using the BX chassis, as well as the proposal by United Defense (the producer of our Primus SPG chassis) on the use of the BX as well as the chassis for the Tunderbolt 2, which also happens to be my personal choice...Originally posted by wonderamazement:Since we have the Bionix...why not create something out of the Bionix hull??? -
kewl..Originally posted by warspite:Theoretically its feasible, but you need to consider in the long term, can the chassis be able to withstand the load; fatigue and stress that comes with the turret carrying a 105mm or 120mm. In fact thats probably the primary reason why ST Kinetics is taking so long to develop a tank variant from the BX chassis. If you read the opther Militarynuts forum, thereis an article on this development using the BX chassis, as well as the proposal by United Defense (the producer of our Primus SPG chassis) on the use of the BX as well as the chassis for the Tunderbolt 2, which also happens to be my personal choice... also the chassis for the Primus can be used as a chassis for the MBT?
so we need something that's light, able to tahan those long days of firing the rounds, air transporatable(who knows? maybe even able to be airlifted by the Chinooks!!!
like the pegasus) -
Originally posted by AISL_2SG
Honestly, i don't feel very safe in a conventional SM1. I don't know for sure but the armour of the SM1 is enough to stop small arms fire up to 7.62mm. But you will have to consider the role of the SM1. The SM1 primary responsibility is to provide the firepower and range for the AI in their Ultras or BX. We are like riding shotgun for the AI. We are not supposed to do a frontal assault on the enemy's main force alone. That is the resposibility of our bigger brothers
I doubt if any of the Tankees feel safe in their AMXs.
Therefore the armoured protection of the SM1 will just sufffice. Furthermore, we have special plans for our tankees during war time so i won't be too worried about armoured protection. 
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eh can someone provide info on the Centurion MK13..?Originally posted by Delta 5:The Thai army sure has a logistical nightmare with 7 kinds of tanks from 4 different countries...
But on the other hand we also have 5 kinds of tanks in service...
If the rumour abt a certain MBT from a certain country is true then would be 6 types currently...
Light Tanks
AMX-13SM1 (350)
AMX-10PAC-90 ( 22 )
M551 ( ? )
Main Battle Tanks
Centurion Mk 13 (100)
M60A3 (Rumoured) ( ? )
i'm surprised to hear tat we got tat..