Zeroing of M16 & SAR 21
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Try firing holding onto the the darn M203 if you complain the carbine is loose. On the usual M16 I usually get about 38 out of 40. With the darn M203 on, I'm lucky if I get 30 out of 40.
I think scopes can work - an M16 with the sharpshooter scope can make a good shooter into a darn accurate one.
But if you bobo shooter... I think not much help unless someone sit down with you and correct everything lah. And that is if you can actually be bothered.
I hear a lot of regulars complain the SAR is just too inaccurate and to give them an M16 any day. But it's no surprise, after taking the SAR on SOC, field training and who knows what other knocks, the alignment on the scope will definitely shift.
Anyone know if ST Kinetics is doing anything to improve the situation? And I don't mean just tightening the fastenings on the SAR.
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I think SAR21 zeroing is quite different from M16. In SAR21, the rifle is almost 1 piece concept. The Mounting sight and barrel alignment are calibrated and welded in the factory; so no movable parts and not prone to misalignment due to mechanical shock (eg dropping of rifle and firing). But SAR21 would need to calibrate the eyepiece, so that the firer can adopt to the rifle firing position.
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No no no... What are you trying to say? How is the zeroing different between the SAR21 and M16. If you want the M16 to be factory zeroed, it can be done. It is no big deal.Originally posted by archon1234:I think SAR21 zeroing is quite different from M16. In SAR21, the rifle is almost 1 piece concept. The Mounting sight and barrel alignment are calibrated and welded in the factory; so no movable parts and not prone to misalignment due to mechanical shock (eg dropping of rifle and firing). But SAR21 would need to calibrate the eyepiece, so that the firer can adopt to the rifle firing position.
The mounting sight has movable parts. It is calibrated via a chart at 10 metres distance in the factory. If subject to enough mechanical shock, i.e., abuse, anything will misalign and move, even if it has no movable parts.
And the last line is pointless. What are you trying to say? -
A lot of weakness of SAR 21 were brought up here.
Have u guys told your Commanders?
What are the channel to tell people in the top if Commander refuse to reflect
all these weakness?Is there a hot line to report,like the Safety Hotline?
Can the weakness of SAR 21 be traeted as a safety issue?
The soldier sure will be in a dangerous position if in war. -
Safety ah.. im not sure. Cos on the surface, the SAR-21 is a good rifle. In fact, its one of the safer rifles around, since there is an extra kevlar plate that protects from chamber explosions.
Its easy to fire, easy to aim. My gripe is that its HEAVY. Haha. -
although i hate it...its a good weapon uh...ergonomic feel...Originally posted by lionnoisy:A lot of weakness of SAR 21 were brought up here.
Have u guys told your Commanders?
What are the channel to tell people in the top if Commander refuse to reflect
all these weakness?Is there a hot line to report,like the Safety Hotline?
Can the weakness of SAR 21 be traeted as a safety issue?
The soldier sure will be in a dangerous position if in war.
good for fibua i guess.....
if me...i juz take out the scope...put some good iron sights...i happy liao.... -
Maybe can redesign it so as to allow it to accept a bayonet and also to move the magazine release to somewhere more ergonomic.Or perhaps follow the H&K MP5 style of having 2 mag releases.
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No, they should just adopt the picatinny version instead of the original. Picatinny version is at least modular man.
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Janes Infantry Weapons 2005-06 reported that ST and MINDEF are improving
SAR 21.
So guys ,pl tell them,officially and ,if official channel is not effective,e mail to parties involved to air your views,or meet your MP.
The rifle is the lifeline of SAF.Dunt let those YES men to endanger SAF.
2.If boss ask for feedback in SAR 21,are there many people in SAF to give the feedback which he think the boss want to hear?The YES men dare not to give
the real feedback.The reason is if u give the feedback which is not the boss expected,u need to write more ,to do more.
The worst is, the boss of the boss also expected an easy feedback !! -
commanders noe of the shortcomings....its lan lan suck thumb for now till they build a better one....Originally posted by lionnoisy:Janes Infantry Weapons 2005-06 reported that ST and MINDEF are improving
SAR 21.
So guys ,pl tell them,officially and ,if official channel is not effective,e mail to parties involved to air your views,or meet your MP.
The rifle is the lifeline of SAF.Dunt let those YES men to endanger SAF.
2.If boss ask for feedback in SAR 21,are there many people in SAF to give the feedback which he think the boss want to hear?The YES men dare not to give
the real feedback.The reason is if u give the feedback which is not the boss expected,u need to write more ,to do more.
The worst is, the boss of the boss also expected an easy feedback !!
its not as easy as telling the proper ppl onli...things take time... -
I mentioned the flaws to the STK fellows before.They always give me the usual answer, that the subsequent batches will be better.I've seen friends having to calibrate huge amounts of SAR21s everytime we repair and maintain them..Originally posted by lionnoisy:A lot of weakness of SAR 21 were brought up here.
Have u guys told your Commanders?
What are the channel to tell people in the top if Commander refuse to reflect
all these weakness?Is there a hot line to report,like the Safety Hotline?
Can the weakness of SAR 21 be traeted as a safety issue?
The soldier sure will be in a dangerous position if in war.
It's simply terrible. -
I agree.The scope is not for every vocation.Best to be able to configure for efficient usage.Originally posted by Shotgun:No, they should just adopt the picatinny version instead of the original. Picatinny version is at least modular man. -
P-Rail version is good,but how about the cost to equip an entire unit with that? Also,to be frank,the only virtue of the bullpup design is that the weapon length is shorter,however I still really really hate the friggin inability to combat reload in 2seconds(or less) flat like the M16.And also,when trying to do double taps or rapid single shots,I hesitate as I'm unable to feel when the rifle's gonna fire off.I've to estimate which is not good as it results in trigger freeze,compared to the M16,you can feel the 1st pressure notch,the 2nd pressure notch followed by the BANG!
Its to be frank,about the feel.If the SAR21 is able to deliver the M16 style of trigger release,the combat reloading part can be overlooked,as it is always advisable to hide behind cover to reload rather than reload on the move. -
Erm, the 1st n 2nd pressure of the trigger doesn't really matter much unless u are going for long shots. When u go for range, chances are u only practice trigger squeeze techniques at the 100m positions. Past that, just squeeze the trigger can liao. Its not that hard to aim.
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It matters,as it will tell me precisely when it will fire.
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I still think the SAR21 is better as an urban combat bullpup or for CQB role as a standard issue weapon for the reinforcing company.Originally posted by SpecOps87:P-Rail version is good,but how about the cost to equip an entire unit with that? Also,to be frank,the only virtue of the bullpup design is that the weapon length is shorter,however I still really really hate the friggin inability to combat reload in 2seconds(or less) flat like the M16.And also,when trying to do double taps or rapid single shots,I hesitate as I'm unable to feel when the rifle's gonna fire off.I've to estimate which is not good as it results in trigger freeze,compared to the M16,you can feel the 1st pressure notch,the 2nd pressure notch followed by the BANG!
Its to be frank,about the feel.If the SAR21 is able to deliver the M16 style of trigger release,the combat reloading part can be overlooked,as it is always advisable to hide behind cover to reload rather than reload on the move.
Look at this H&K rifle..
The HK 416 is a project by Heckler & Koch to produce a improved M4 Carbine pattern firearm. It was orginally called the HKM4, but this was changed in response to a trademark infringement suit filed by Colt Defense. The HK 416 piston system is similar to that found in the AR-18, rather than the direct gas system used by the standard M16/M4. So far the weapon has reportedly been tested by unnamed units in the United States military, and has reportedly done well. It is only available to government and military organizations. It may be purchased as complete firearm, or as an upper receiver kit. -
HK isn't the only ones making a piston upper for AR15s, Patriot Ordnance Factory, ZM weapons and Leitner-Wise also manufacture them, I also believe that they are for sale at a much lower price than HK.Originally posted by LazerLordz:I still think the SAR21 is better as an urban combat bullpup or for CQB role as a standard issue weapon for the reinforcing company.
Look at this H&K rifle..
The HK 416 is a project by Heckler & Koch to produce a improved M4 Carbine pattern firearm. It was orginally called the HKM4, but this was changed in response to a trademark infringement suit filed by Colt Defense. The HK 416 piston system is similar to that found in the AR-18, rather than the direct gas system used by the standard M16/M4. So far the weapon has reportedly been tested by unnamed units in the United States military, and has reportedly done well. It is only available to government and military organizations. It may be purchased as complete firearm, or as an upper receiver kit.
If I recall correctly HK sells their complete upper for USD 3400 while the rest are selling theirs at a fraction of that cost.
The HK 416 14.5" model weighs as much as the M16A4 which has a 20" barrel. Thats 27.5% less barrel for the same weight and approximately 40% less range.
Check out the HK417 while you're at it, pretty much a piston upper for a AR10 but it does look very cool
. HK doesn't seem to be coming out with any thing revolutionary these days. :S
Now FN on the other hand...
Also check out Rob Arm's XCR some call it the next best thing to the FN SCAR.
http://www.robarm.com/xcrtm_modular_weapon_system.htm