SAF not welcome in Aussie?
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i actually agree with the fact that we should imposed capital punishment only if the drug is meant for singapore market. otherwise it is not our problem.Originally posted by Joe Black:Well, the difference in this drug case vs some others is that this boy was carrying the drugs back to Australia. If the drug is going to cause problems they will happen in Australia and not in Singapore. The fact that the arguement about how drugs are destroying life (albeit true), is not going to happen in this case in Singapore (unlike the Singaporean students in Melbourne will also be one of the herion consumer).
Look, I am not saying he has broken the law. I am not saying his crime is not serious. I am saying is that in certain circumstances like this, a little compassion can be shown. I believe in giving some second chance, someone who can repent. and contribute to the society.
Anyway, I can see that the govt is not going to back down. I sometimes wonder if the people are really ready to build more of a compassionate society or is this only a lip services. I recall how the PM talked about transforming the society to a more compassionate one, only to see that in this case, compassion is not being shown. How can the people learn.... -
Originally posted by lionnoisy:
that probably will not happen, don't worry ... there is too much at stake, too much mutual interest for it to become reality ... the chaps making all the noise are mostly small time leftist liberals and the opposition out to score a few points ... their PM is going to a cricket game on friday ! ... you think the aussie goverment really cares if this chap was hung ? ... judging by the PM's and FM's comments, they are just making the pro forma noises due to pressure from their own opposition .... i think they'll be glad when friday is over ...
After the hanging,every MP in Aussie will fight[b] to table a motion
to terminate the Shoalwater Bay Agreement mentioned and shown
the details above.
100% will get YA.
In order to save face of Sg,it will be a mutually agreemnet
to terminate earlier instead of the notice to quit 1 year.
It could be 6 months'agreed mutually'.
This may be a good news for family of SAF,but it will be
a bad news for SAF planners.
Even US maintain SAF training there after Michael Faye.
Aussie should think carefully,the world is watching at-----Aussie.[/b] -
certain countries believe they are above others, because they have the $, military might.
When one of their child get smack in the face for being naughty, they came in heavy hands and threaten to do this & that.
It might be a case of drug, murder & invasion. What they do is right, every other folks do it are wrong.
to create a fairer playing ground, very house have its own rules. If you flout the rules with intention & in return asking for forgiveness when caught. It is a shame to the country.
It is not wrong for a parent to seek forgiveness on behalf of the child that misbehave. If forgiveness is not granted what should you do? Retribution? -
lets go to the point, do you think Nguyen should be sentenced to death, given a lighter sentence, or aquitted??Originally posted by dragg:maybe the mandatory death sentence should be removed.
sentencing should be on a case-to-case basis. -
If u happen to see someone being robbed in public, do u stop to help the victim catch the robber or do u just walk away as its not ur friends/family members that is being robbed coz it is not ur problem that the person is being robbed !Originally posted by dragg:i actually agree with the fact that we should imposed capital punishment only if the drug is meant for singapore market. otherwise it is not our problem. -
Highly ironic, given that we are not exactly the poorer nation or the weaker one.Originally posted by kops21:certain countries believe they are above others, because they have the $, military might.
When one of their child get smack in the face for being naughty, they came in heavy hands and threaten to do this & that.
It might be a case of drug, murder & invasion. What they do is right, every other folks do it are wrong.
to create a fairer playing ground, very house have its own rules. If you flout the rules with intention & in return asking for forgiveness when caught. It is a shame to the country.
It is not wrong for a parent to seek forgiveness on behalf of the child that misbehave. If forgiveness is not granted what should you do? Retribution?
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This comparision is not a fair one. Compare apples with apples....Originally posted by starExcaliblur:If u happen to see someone being robbed in public, do u stop to help the victim catch the robber or do u just walk away as its not ur friends/family members that is being robbed coz it is not ur problem that the person is being robbed !
In any case, the principle to apply is what is good for the victims? In the case of your question, of course, direct assistance to the victim is the right response.
In a drug case, do you want to catch the mule or the dealers/barons? What are the practical ways to help the victims (the drug addict), don't forget that it is also the victim's own choice to take the drugs. (Let us not talk about the case where they are being forced into by say, human traffickers or gangster pims.
In this Nyugen case, would the victims be Singaporean or Australian? What are the Australian (would be target) saying about him? Hang him? or show clemency? I think the answer is very obvious. -
Originally posted by Joe Black:
Joe Black,
Well, the difference in this drug case vs some others is that [b]this boy was carrying the drugs back to Australia. If the drug is going to cause problems they will happen in Australia and not in Singapore. The fact that the arguement about how drugs are destroying life (albeit true), is not going to happen in this case in Singapore (unlike the Singaporean students in Melbourne will also be one of the herion consumer).
Look, I am not saying he has broken the law. I am not saying his crime is not serious. I am saying is that in certain circumstances like this, a little compassion can be shown. I believe in giving some second chance, someone who can repent. and contribute to the society.
Anyway, I can see that the govt is not going to back down. I sometimes wonder if the people are really ready to build more of a compassionate society or is this only a lip services. I recall how the PM talked about transforming the society to a more compassionate one, only to see that in this case, compassion is not being shown. How can the people learn....[/b]
you have not answered my question on why you think this 25 yrs old little boy is naive and THEREFORE deserves compassion.
Our compassion goes to those unfortunate, iliterate and weak in the society, including those drugs abusers. Drugs traffickers contribute to the pain and agony of all societies, please tell why they deserve compassion for trafficking??
Lets get this straight, Nguyen was not consuming the drugs nor was he under the influence of drugs, he was caught in possession of the illegal drugs in excessive quantity, and that alone is breaking the law, it does not matter if you bring the drug onboard to be thrown into the can, to be used to train his dogs, to sell to his doctors..... . His act of carrying the drugs is a clear case of smuggling.
It also does not matter if the drugs are meant for singapore or not, imagine a bomb was discovered in changi but as long as the timer shows it will explode only after 9 hrs when the plane land in sydney, and the person planting the bombs happens to hold an oz passport, can the singapore customs then do nothing because the damage is not meant for singapore!! What kind of an arument it is?? if we do that, then singapore would be truely a selfish nation.
Having moral values is required of any civilized society; it is the rights of any civilized society to fight and defend what we believe is right. -
flawed analogy.Originally posted by sgdiehard:It also does not matter if the drugs are meant for singapore or not, imagine a bomb was discovered in changi but as long as the timer shows it will explode only after 9 hrs when the plane land in sydney, and the person planting the bombs happens to hold an oz passport, can the singapore customs then do nothing because the damage is not meant for singapore!! What kind of an arument it is?? if we do that, then singapore would be truely a selfish nation.
In the drug case, it is not the govt doing NOTHING. It is an argument between death sentence and (eg.) a few years in jail.
If there is a bomb in our airport .. of course we arrest the bad guys first. -
Don't make me laugh! Even if Singapore stops buying Australian poultry, it won't affect them much! Do you know how small a market Singapore is? If I were Australia, I would be more concerned with keeping good links with Malaysia or Indonesia rather than Singapore, the miniscule red dot.Originally posted by KumSioJui:If they want to take it to the next level we can even start taking australian poultry products off our shelves and start filling it with others and take our business elsewhere.
I say Australia friggin nuke the island and solve the whole issue. -
Well, I believe that in this case and circumstances, I believe this silly 25 yrs old would deserves some compassion. I believe he should pay for his crime and stupidity but not with his life. He is just a little small fry in the bigger schema of things. Yes, he cannot escape the consequence of commiting a crime, being naive and desparate or not. His act, albeit bad, is not evil. I do dispise drug dealers. I do dispise drug users. The tough stand that the govt has taken on drugs has been a good deterent and seems to work in Singaporean society. I have grown to appreciate what the govt has done, but the thing about mandatory sentencing and the Nyugen case sets me to think that perhaps Singapore should relook at the mandatory sentencing. Afterall, you have rightly pointed out that Singapore is a "civilized society".Originally posted by sgdiehard:you have not answered my question on why you think this 25 yrs old little boy is naive and THEREFORE deserves compassion.
Our compassion goes to those unfortunate, iliterate and weak in the society, including those drugs abusers. Drugs traffickers contribute to the pain and agony of all societies, please tell why they deserve compassion for trafficking??
Lets get this straight, Nguyen was not consuming the drugs nor was he under the influence of drugs, he was caught in possession of the illegal drugs in excessive quantity, and that alone is breaking the law, it does not matter if you bring the drug onboard to be thrown into the can, to be used to train his dogs, to sell to his doctors..... . His act of carrying the drugs is a clear case of smuggling.
Having moral values is required of any civilized society; it is the rights of any civilized society to fight and defend what we believe is right. -
We learn in Law 101 that our law can be punitive, deterrant, corrective and I forgot the last one liao.Originally posted by Joe Black:I have grown to appreciate what the govt has done, but the thing about mandatory sentencing and the Nyugen case sets me to think that perhaps Singapore should relook at the mandatory sentencing. Afterall, you have rightly pointed out that Singapore is a "civilized society".
In this case, it is deterrance. -
Then Singapore will set the example that even if you're young, naive, and have a bright future ahead, you're not going to get away with it. This message will be sent out to all who think that they can push the drugs to the young foolish ones and assure them they'll get away with nothing more than a sentence.Originally posted by Joe Black:Well, I believe that in this case and circumstances, I believe this silly 25 yrs old would deserves some compassion. I believe he should pay for his crime and stupidity but not with his life. He is just a little small fry in the bigger schema of things. Yes, he cannot escape the consequence of commiting a crime, being naive and desparate or not. His act, albeit bad, is not evil. I do dispise drug dealers. I do dispise drug users. The tough stand that the govt has taken on drugs has been a good deterent and seems to work in Singaporean society. I have grown to appreciate what the govt has done, but the thing about mandatory sentencing and the Nyugen case sets me to think that perhaps Singapore should relook at the mandatory sentencing. Afterall, you have rightly pointed out that Singapore is a "civilized society". -
and Changi is known to be a place for transit traffickers after...Originally posted by dragg:i actually agree with the fact that we should imposed capital punishment only if the drug is meant for singapore market. otherwise it is not our problem.
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and no more young, naive, foolish ones will spoil their bright bright future by smuggling drugs in a moment of folly ....Originally posted by ditzy:Then Singapore will set the example that even if you're young, naive, and have a bright future ahead, you're not going to get away with it. This message will be sent out to all who think that they can push the drugs to the young foolish ones and assure them they'll get away with nothing more than a sentence.
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The last European country I visisted was Italy near the end of last year. There was virtually no discrimination probably because the Italians are very used to seeing tourists of all races and a hundred million million visit Italy every year.Originally posted by Fatum:this doesn't happen in Australia alone ...
But there was still one or two ocassions where I step into a restaurant and they hesistated a split second before they approached to serve me.
The reason was simple and it's not because of my clothes - I wasn't dressed poorly. (After years of travelling experience I now understand why the Japs ALWAYS dress their best when overseas. People overseas have low opinions of Chinese/Asians, so you better dress well if you wish to be treated well.)
I walk along the streets of Venice, Rome and you know what I see? Chinese people selling wind up toys on a piece of cloth on the pavements, giving foot massages to fat German tourists and other such forms of street peddling.
For most Italians, this is the lasting impression of Chinese people in their mind. So when one steps into their restaurant e.g. me, they're not sure if I was there to give custom or to peddle toys.
So I would advice those of you who still have the idea of backpacking to Europe at least make sure you dress hip, if not expensive, less you be mistaken for a street peddler.
On the streets of Italy, Chinese people are above the gypsies only because they don't steal or rob.
I felt a pang of shame but then I quickly reminded myself that this is unfortunately the story of the Chinese diaspora.
Many of our grandparents came to Singapore the same way, I'm sure - peddling stuff or being coolies. But look at us today. And rags to riches stories happening to these dirt poor immigrants are still happening today as we speak. So if I go back a decade later the street peddler could be a restaurant owner. -
Right now, the transit is from Changi Airport to Changi Gallows. Hooray.Originally posted by the Bear:and Changi is known to be a place for transit traffickers after...
The general rule is that for every drug trafficking mule caught, at least 5 others (or more) go undetected. According to a report i read long ago, Singapore is a MAJOR drug transit point, both the air and the sea port. And worst of all, most drug mules caught are due to tip offs, not the vigilance of our custom officers.
Surprised? you shouldn't be cos you all know about Singapore's strategic location for trade routes etc. Drugs is simply another form of commerce.
So to those of you who are prepared to be compassionate to drug traficking stories - stop being naive.
And you must also remember that it is the Australian govt's job to protest loudly every time their citizens are sentenced to death for something. This is not the first time nor wil it be the last time. You know the SG government won't budge, so it's a little game that will play itself out though all sides already know the score.
Drug traffickers know FULL WELL the death penalty if caught trafficking in SG or MY, so they don't need your pity. People die everyday, why shouldn't drug trafficers?
I did not comment on the whole death sentence thing earlier cos the thread was about SAF being welcome in Australia.
My view is that while Aussie troops seem to have no problem and may in fact find it amusing that English-speaking troops of an Asian ally nation is training there, most white supremacists don't see the same way. And it doesn't need a controversial death sentence to stir this cauldron. -
Talking abt Chinese tourist, and in light of the recent incident that happened in Malaysia regarding the insulting of China tourist, .........this is wat I feel.
Of course, those wrong policemen needs to be punished. BUT, the way the China ppls conduct and behave themselves in other nations is deploring, digusting and unacceptable. For example, as a student in a local uni, some China students I see, realli give ppls a bad impression of their nations. For example they sing their folk song so loudly that u can hear them at least 40m away, they discuss in their native dialect during project discussion even when there are other races in the groups.
I have also seen Chinese tourist oversea, talk loudly, eat in a loud messy manner in those quiet restaurants in Australia. The locals obviously don't accept their behaviours, some shake their heads while others just take it as a amusement machiam like circus clowns.
Actually, some Chinese immigrants also do things that harm reputation of thir country. For example, Some of them are in charge of human smuggling, drug issues and also large crime syndicates. All these definitely make a bad impressions and even in Singapore, there are things like "liu ying" a.ka.a prostitutes, thus some times u can't blame others for resenting them. -
How about YOUR own country? Racism in Melbourne is abundant. Go and clear YOUR own backyard before sticking your head over the wall and minding OUR business.Originally posted by Joe Black:Your comment is a prime example why Singapore society will never progress from the nanny state mentality. Period.
There are a lot of flaws, that is why the mandatory sentencing is there. Without it, the trafficker will have more law flaws to slip through.Originally posted by Joe Black:I didn't ask to abolish death sentense, I simply said mandatory sentensing should be abolished. Let the judges decide when there are or no causes for appeal, or there are cause to consider lighter sentensing. In life, things are not always black and white.
What if someone is being force to carry drugs and get caught, we will only see the mandatory sentensing punishing the victims rather than the drug lords/barons or the real dealers. There are lots of flaw in the law, that's all.
You have forgotten, IF the customs were NOT to catch him, he would have helped the drug syndicates in Australia financially, and help hook more people onto drugs.Originally posted by Joe Black:You gotta be out of your mind... you call trying to save one of their citizen interfering? Which planet are you from.... oh I forgot.... Singaporean has never enjoyed a govt which will do as much as possible to save its own citizen, therefore, for Australian govt to do so is called interfering....
I think the whole terrorist thingy is different from this drug case and we should treat it as such. Terrorist blows up many many innocent lives. This poor stupid boy simply did a deed, albeit bad, but has not taken 1 single Singaporean lives. Now where is the comparision.
Please people, do not think that as Singaporean, it is right to hold such moral high ground!
I personally did not see anything wrong with John Howard or Alexandar Downer in this sad case. They have not said anything which I find offensive. Whatever the opposition or the ex-Prime ministers have said do not represent the govt position, but it is a general feeling of the Australian people.
I am surprised that Australia is not thankful.
Yes, he did so to help his brother... but traffick drugs?
It is like killing the loan shark to help your brother escape them -- you get caught, and get sentenced for manslaughter. You try to wriggle out, saying that you did this to help your brother, but many others like me think:
There are others ways of getting help in the good, legal way.
Would you show compassion to someone who is trying to muder your whole family?Originally posted by Joe Black:Well, the difference in this drug case vs some others is that this boy was carrying the drugs back to Australia. If the drug is going to cause problems they will happen in Australia and not in Singapore. The fact that the arguement about how drugs are destroying life (albeit true), is not going to happen in this case in Singapore (unlike the Singaporean students in Melbourne will also be one of the herion consumer).
Look, I am not saying he has broken the law. I am not saying his crime is not serious. I am saying is that in certain circumstances like this, a little compassion can be shown. I believe in giving some second chance, someone who can repent. and contribute to the society.
Anyway, I can see that the govt is not going to back down. I sometimes wonder if the people are really ready to build more of a compassionate society or is this only a lip services. I recall how the PM talked about transforming the society to a more compassionate one, only to see that in this case, compassion is not being shown. How can the people learn....
Isn't Singapore meant to be world-class? Shouldn't nations help each other?Originally posted by dragg:i actually agree with the fact that we should imposed capital punishment only if the drug is meant for singapore market. otherwise it is not our problem.
In the political level, you don't have the option of Bo Chap.
They catch the mules, so that the dealers have less runners. Moreover they also cut down on the number of drugs, and scare other runners.Originally posted by Joe Black:This comparision is not a fair one. Compare apples with apples....
In any case, the principle to apply is what is good for the victims? In the case of your question, of course, direct assistance to the victim is the right response.
In a drug case, do you want to catch the mule or the dealers/barons? What are the practical ways to help the victims (the drug addict), don't forget that it is also the victim's own choice to take the drugs. (Let us not talk about the case where they are being forced into by say, human traffickers or gangster pims.
In this Nyugen case, would the victims be Singaporean or Australian? What are the Australian (would be target) saying about him? Hang him? or show clemency? I think the answer is very obvious.
Something like the usual "pirated CD" matter.
He know that doing so is bad.Originally posted by Joe Black:Well, I believe that in this case and circumstances, I believe this silly 25 yrs old would deserves some compassion. I believe he should pay for his crime and stupidity but not with his life. He is just a little small fry in the bigger schema of things. Yes, he cannot escape the consequence of commiting a crime, being naive and desparate or not. His act, albeit bad, is not evil. I do dispise drug dealers. I do dispise drug users. The tough stand that the govt has taken on drugs has been a good deterent and seems to work in Singaporean society. I have grown to appreciate what the govt has done, but the thing about mandatory sentencing and the Nyugen case sets me to think that perhaps Singapore should relook at the mandatory sentencing. Afterall, you have rightly pointed out that Singapore is a "civilized society".
It is like a court judge accepting the bribes, even if he knows the consequences.Dictionary.com
To educate. To raise from barbarism, to an enlightened stage of development.[/quote]
civ·i·lize P Pronunciation Key (sv-lz)tr.v. civ·i·lized, civ·i·liz·ing, civ·i·liz·es
To raise from barbarism to an enlightened stage of development; bring out of a primitive or savage state.
To educate in matters of culture and refinement; make more polished or sophisticated. -
Excuse me.... this is a little quick to jump into conclusion.... First of all, who is talking about racism... and in Melbourne? I haven't heard my friends complaining about racism in Melbourne. Do you live in Melbourne to qualify you for saying this. Furthermore, we are talking about compassion for a poor Melbournian boy who should have used his brain a little more before getting into this trouble.Originally posted by launtpc:How about YOUR own country? Racism in Melbourne is abundant. Go and clear YOUR own backyard before sticking your head over the wall and minding OUR business.
Secondly, I have never said Australia is perfect, neither have I said Singapore is bad. Guess what... I happen to be borned, and bred in Singapore, went through the educational system. I also happen to have the opportunity to live in Australia - so I think I am in a good position to discuss such matters.
I thought we are all cilivised and want to discuss important matters in a matured fashion. My parents were the first generation Singaporean and having going through the forming years, I can appreciate what the Singapore govt has done so far, and I think they have done a pretty darn good job. However, it is time to grow a little more mature. If Singapore is to emulate western countries in terms of creativity and entrepreneurship, perhaps it is time people should start to think more independently and do not necessary be a "yes sir. yes ma'm" to the govt's policy. It is time to have dialogue and discussions about issues... that including points in the current law system.
I am disappointed that some people are arguing senseless for the sake of arguing or simply not being about to receive different opinions.
I guess as an Asian, I sympathise with Nyugen's family. At the same time, any attack on the current ruling australian govt is really uncalled for as I haven't witness anything they have said or done that haven't taken both Singapore an Australian interests at heart. Other people can hurl abuses... but get used to it. In Australian, they can even insult the PM. In Singapore, the same insult will land you in jail or a sue... Singaporeans have more to learn.
For those unconvinced people, think of this, if Nyugen is your brother, or child, how would you feel? If your family is to be executed in a foreign country, how would you feel... yes, you can hold this moral high ground "we will not commit any crime in foreign country" attitude, but what if it really happened to you? Would you still hold this moral high ground and say, go execute my family member? -
The analogy is in response to those who argue that since the drug is not meant for singapore, the traffickers should have a lesser sentence.Originally posted by Icemoon:flawed analogy.
In the drug case, it is not the govt doing NOTHING. It is an argument between death sentence and (eg.) a few years in jail.
If there is a bomb in our airport .. of course we arrest the bad guys first.
should the bomber than have a lesser sentence since the bomb is destined for other places than singapore?? I don't think so. -
bro,Originally posted by Joe Black:Excuse me.... this is a little quick to jump into conclusion.... First of all, who is talking about racism... and in Melbourne? I haven't heard my friends complaining about racism in Melbourne. Do you live in Melbourne to qualify you for saying this. Furthermore, we are talking about compassion for a poor Melbournian boy who should have used his brain a little more before getting into this trouble.
Secondly, I have never said Australia is perfect, neither have I said Singapore is bad. Guess what... I happen to be borned, and bred in Singapore, went through the educational system. I also happen to have the opportunity to live in Australia - so I think I am in a good position to discuss such matters.
I thought we are all cilivised and want to discuss important matters in a matured fashion. My parents were the first generation Singaporean and having going through the forming years, I can appreciate what the Singapore govt has done so far, and I think they have done a pretty darn good job. However, it is time to grow a little more mature. If Singapore is to emulate western countries in terms of creativity and entrepreneurship, perhaps it is time people should start to think more independently and do not necessary be a "yes sir. yes ma'm" to the govt's policy. It is time to have dialogue and discussions about issues... that including points in the current law system.
I am disappointed that some people are arguing senseless for the sake of arguing or simply not being about to receive different opinions.
I guess as an Asian, I sympathise with Nyugen's family. At the same time, any attack on the current ruling australian govt is really uncalled for as I haven't witness anything they have said or done that haven't taken both Singapore an Australian interests at heart. Other people can hurl abuses... but get used to it. In Australian, they can even insult the PM. In Singapore, the same insult will land you in jail or a sue... Singaporeans have more to learn.
For those unconvinced people, think of this, if Nyugen is your brother, or child, how would you feel? If your family is to be executed in a foreign country, how would you feel... yes, you can hold this moral high ground "we will not commit any crime in foreign country" attitude, but what if it really happened to you? Would you still hold this moral high ground and say, go execute my family member?
you got to realise that some of us taking a stand different from that of yours doesn't mean that we are not independent in our thoughts, supporting capital punishment, which in this case happen to be inline with what our goverment think, doesn't mean that we were brain-washed by the goverment, okie, so you do not support the death penalty in this case .... good for you, but some of us do .... it is not right to presume that perhaps because we think like our goverment in this case, we're senseless stooges and slaves ... we all have the same piece of grey fat between our ears too you know ...
as for the past paragraph, yes, of course it would hurt ... but ... i'm not sure ... and i hope i'll never find out ... i think there will be an accompanying sense of shame as well ... no one, of course, will say, go ahead, execute the chap, he deserves it, for he committed a crime in a foreign country ... it is this holier than thou attitude, as demonstrated by the aussie press, that irks me ... if the death penalty is so abhorent to aussies, I wonder how many aussie will be up in arms to protest against the death penalty for the bali bombers ? ... of course, i realise that killing a bunch of people by a bomb is vastly different from killing a bunch of people by drug OD ... but then again ... the clamour I hear is that the death penalty is universaly barbaric, is it not ?....
what ever the case ... i think this episode has been a good learning experience for the people of both countries ... (those that can be bothered, that is) .... i think everyone needs to learn that the world doesn't exist for them alone ...
cheers .... -
wah leow .. I thought your argument made some sense until I read this.Originally posted by Joe Black:For those unconvinced people, think of this, if Nyugen is your brother, or child, how would you feel? If your family is to be executed in a foreign country, how would you feel... yes, you can hold this moral high ground "we will not commit any crime in foreign country" attitude, but what if it really happened to you? Would you still hold this moral high ground and say, go execute my family member?
From ancient times to now, bonds (qing1 qing2) and justice dun go hand in hand. Or else Justice Bao won't be so famous liao.
You're just preying on our feelings. The classical "if Nyugen is your brother" question. You might as well ask "if Took is your husband or your son". If you are the judge and Took is your son, hello I think you're not in a clear position to pass judgement. -
Yes, you are right if you read my last comment plainly.Originally posted by Icemoon:wah leow .. I thought your argument made some sense until I read this.
From ancient times to now, bonds (qing1 qing2) and justice dun go hand in hand. Or else Justice Bao won't be so famous liao.
You're just preying on our feelings. The classical "if Nyugen is your brother" question. You might as well ask "if Took is your husband or your son". If you are the judge and Took is your son, hello I think you're not in a clear position to pass judgement.
I simply want to illustrate that it is easy to disassociate one's feeling about any issue if nothing personal is at stake. But, this is what compassion is all about, to put a human side to the absolute, in this case, mandatory sentensing. Furthermore, I am not asking the judge to consider "relationship" in his/her judgement. I am just asking fellow fourm members to consider about their views and consider the human side of things even in justice. Why are some accussed being able to get away with lighter sentenses than others, it is all because they have shown repentance, etc. The judges would have deemed that they are willingly to change their wrongful ways, etc.
I am trying to stress that mandatory sentensing in this case is to put an absolute to a judgement, to take the "emotion" out of the equation. The judge can do nothing but to administor this punishment as it is in the law. Mandatory sentensing is about not giving the judge the opportunity to weigh in different perspective of a crime being committed.
However, having said this, it is true that bring the last comment about "what if Nyugen is your family member" is tarnishing the argument somewhat
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Originally posted by Joe Black:
Err.....those of us who are defending the sentence are thinking independently, and we are arguing based on our own reasons, some are even bashing the Oz a bit, even though the government's position is to downplay the dispute. We are not saying "yes" because we agree with the government, we just agree with the law and the sentence. don't be too quick in jumping into conclusion.
Excuse me.... this is a little quick to jump into conclusion....
Furthermore, we are talking about compassion for a poor Melbournian boy who should have used his brain a little more before getting into this trouble.
I thought we are all cilivised and want to discuss important matters in a matured fashion. My parents were the first generation Singaporean and having going through the forming years, I can appreciate what the Singapore govt has done so far, and I think they have done a pretty darn good job. However, it is time to grow a little more mature. If Singapore is to emulate western countries in terms of creativity and entrepreneurship, perhaps it is time people should start to think more independently and do not necessary be a "yes sir. yes ma'm" to the govt's policy. It is time to have dialogue and discussions about issues... that including points in the current law system.
I guess as an Asian, I sympathise with Nyugen's family. At the same time, any attack on the current ruling australian govt is really uncalled for as I haven't witness anything they have said or done that haven't taken both Singapore an Australian interests at heart. Other people can hurl abuses... but get used to it. In Australian, they can even insult the PM. In Singapore, the same insult will land you in jail or a sue... Singaporeans have more to learn.
For those unconvinced people, think of this, if Nyugen is your brother, or child, how would you feel? If your family is to be executed in a foreign country, how would you feel... yes, you can hold this moral high ground "we will not commit any crime in foreign country" attitude, but what if it really happened to you? Would you still hold this moral high ground and say, go execute my family member?[/b]
I do agree with you that in other countries, anybody can insult, criticise or even ridicule their PM or politicians, or any public figures. This is what the Singaporean elites should learn to accept = Ppl don't insult them doesn't mean they are respected.
Well, in bringing up children, in sending children for overseas studies, my family hold very strong guard against two evils, Drugs abuse and gamblings. If my children, at the age of 25, got themselves in debt, involved in peddling drugs, not just in australia but traffick illegal drugs all the way from cambodia, I would still fight within the legal means to save their lives, but I will not go all out to publicize their wrong deeds thus tarnishing the names of the family and bring shame to their teachers and all around him. I definitely will not call my 25 yr old "poor boys".
Giving birth to children is easy, bringing them up is a lot more difficult, especially in societies infested with drugs abuses. Hang the traffickers before they get your children in trouble!!