SAF not welcome in Aussie?
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Originally posted by Joe Black:
If showing remorse is ALL it takes to reduce sentence, it would be a pre-requisite for all drug traffickers or murderers to attend drama class before they carry out their missions.
Why are some accussed being able to get away with lighter sentenses than others, [b]it is all because they have shown repentance, etc. The judges would have deemed that they are willingly to change their wrongful ways, etc.
I am trying to stress that mandatory sentensing in this case is to put an absolute to a judgement, to take the "emotion" out of the equation. The judge can do nothing but to administor this punishment as it is in the law. Mandatory sentensing is about not giving the judge the opportunity to weigh in different perspective of a crime being committed.
However, having said this, it is true that bring the last comment about "what if Nyugen is your family member" is tarnishing the argument somewhat
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Using "Emotion" to influence judgement is a two edged sword. If the muslims gathered outside the courthouse with emotional supports for the bali bombers can affect the judgement, how do the families of those who were killed in the blasts feel?
Mandatory death sentence is like the sign "Danger, High Voltage, touch and you shall be electricuted". Judgement is already there. Some ppl may touched and escaped death because of the rubber shoes they wear, but it doesn't mean that everybody can do that, and there is no fair or not fair, compassion or not. The authority is at fault only if the signs are not clearly written or visibily displaced. -
Apparently somehow you misread my message.Originally posted by Joe Black:I am disappointed that some people are arguing senseless for the sake of arguing or simply not being about to receive different opinions.
I am not moronic enough to fight for the sake of fighting;argue for the sake of arugeing -- in all, doing something for the sake of doing that.
Since the beginning of your message, you have so plainly and widely put it as "let's not jump into conclusions", so therefore why are you accusing me of "simply not being able to receive different opinions"?
Isn't that what a forum is made to serve for? It is made, for people to exchange ideas. Isn't that a human instinct, called "communication", "debate", "exchange", made for?
You have, ignored your own "moral", and went ahead to say that I do not understand nor accept your arguments.
It is this message, that clearly signalled that you are the one who is plainly not being about to receive different opinions.
So now, it is obvious that this "discussion" is going nowhere, and it is futile, futile to try and deliberate further. What is the use of deliberating if parties start accusing each other with unfounded accusations? It will spoil the whole discussion altogether.
Therefore now, I regret, but I must and am forced to denounce my presence in this thread. -
This is so typical of AUSTRALIA's snobbery!Originally posted by Joe Black:Many Australian do start to resent Singapore, eventhough we do know that Nyugen has little hope in fighting against his death sentence. What most Australian are pissed off is that Singapore simply "snubbed" the plead for what they see as an unfortunate act of stupidity but in the bid to help his brother. Furthermore, the intention was to bring the drugs back to Australia and not to Singapore. The ministers in Singapore govt simply misread the mood of the Australian people. It is thus the right to Australian to reconsider their relationship with Singapore, and rightly so. Afterall, Sinagapore needs Australia more than Australia needs Singapore.
>> "Afterall, Sinagapore needs Australia more than Australia needs Singapore."
Australia may not need Singapore much, but i wonder how much trade she does with the rest of South East Asia, not to mention the Arab nations and even China - most of which have the DEATH PENALTY and administer this penalty on a rather regular basis.
Perhaps Australia should sever ALL ties with ALL countries that still have the death penalty and trade exclusively with their "master" - USA - but oops....a large number of US states have the death penalty too....and I do believe TEXAS (the home state of Australia's beloved GEORGE W. BUSH) has one of the highest executions in US!
Well...it seems Australia has to STOP trading with USA too then!
Singapore...sign the petition below and show your disgust of Australia's boorish, bullying ways! Show them what their opinions and desires and demands count for here!
Go to http://www.PetitionOnline.com/SSS01/petition.html
To: The Citizens of Singapore
SHOW your support for the sovereignty of our country, for the powers of our courts, and for the fairness of our justice system!
Say NO to foreign intervention and interference! No to unwarranted insults, media bashing and derision from foreign entities and countries that have no respect for our country, our way of life!
NO to foreigners demanding special treatments, extraordinary waivers!
SHOW your rejection of those who only seek to hurt us, discredit us at ALL cost simply to achieve their unreasonable demands.
The continuous wrangling and demands from Australia for special consideration/treatment in the case of convicted heroin smuggler Nguyen Tuong Van, who is due to be hanged, has revealed the extent of the regard Australia has for Singapore and our laws, courts, and way of life.
With hardly any consideration for the sovereignty of our written laws and the fairness of our justice system, Australia has, like a bully, insisted that we treat Nguyen differently from all other criminals in Singapore, be it foreigners or locals, simply, it seems, because he has an Australian passport.
While the SingaporeÂ’s steadfast, legal and fair position on this case is lost to Australia, Australia ups the bullying ante and has gone international in its attempts to discredit us, to diminish our courts of law and to influence/interfere in the very local societal rules that we live by!
With continual Singapore-bashing in the Australian media and now, threats of hauling us to the International Court of Justice, Australia seems determined to impose on us what she deems as "right" and "wrong", and that we should bend backwards for her even when there is no merit in the request. While all these smack of (Western?) imperialism, it is made especially more pertinent since the citizens of Singapore live under the very same laws that convicted Nguyen. Is Australia suggesting that because Nguyen carries an Australian passport, he is therefore above our laws? And that we must employ double standards – one for locals and another for Australians/foreigners?
NO!
We sign this petition as a show of faith in our laws and courts, in our justice system!
We sign this petition as a show of faith in our position in this travesty!
We sign this petition as a show of unity against unreasonable demands from Singapore!
Go to http://www.PetitionOnline.com/SSS01/petition.html
In seeking for this Petition, I am asking NOT to tell Australia what to think or believe but to show them that the PEOPLE of Singapore believes in their own Government!
I do NOT seek to tell them how they should run their country so I expect them to do likewise!
I ask for this PETITION as a SHOW of the SUPPORT and SOLIDARITY that Singaporeans have amongst them. To tell Australia that this "whiteman's burden" attitude is not necessary in the case of Singapore - we are not a country in trouble that needs them to try to "help", to "educate", to be "liberated".
Please do not misunderstand my Petition and do forward it to your friends and family!
Thanks for your support! -
You don't have to retract your statement, Joe. Compassion can only begin when you start asking yourself questions such as the above. It is precisely because Singaporeans are so famously self-centred that they are apathetic to issues that do not affect them directly. They would place absolute premium on selfishly paranoid questions such as "what if my family member became a drug addict?" to the exclusion of all other questions when determining the fate of a fellow human being.Originally posted by Joe Black:However, having said this, it is true that bring the last comment about "what if Nyugen is your family member" is tarnishing the argument somewhat
Proof is in the pudding when you see ludicrous posts here comparing the offence of drug trafficking to terrorist bombings and the blind belief that the death penalty is the only way to go to solve the drug problem, or for that matter, probably any other perceived big problems. You knew the punishment, you took the risk, you suffer the consequences - that is the extent of Singaporean compassion.
It is simply too much to ask of this nation a mature and progressive mindset. The only progress we understand is in terms economic. There is not even a hint of regret or shame that our nation still resorts to a very barbaric form of punishment. If we are to change that, then we better damn well start by seriously asking ourselves questions such as the one you have suggested instead of dismissing them all in the name of efficiency. -
Sadly to say Joe Black you are one of those typical frog in the well ppl in australia where compassion will overwrite any logical and correct decision.
Compassion is to show to ppl that deserve it like those who are torture by the use of drugs and has been suffering from it and not to one that bring drugs into the country. Yes he may have feel totally repent, but he only does so when he knew of his death sentence. Next even if he is on transit, it still Singapore home soil. Also if you say that he shouldn't be hang cos he is only transiting then what if osama load a planeful of sucide bomber and purposely send the on a destination where they will need to transist in australia airport and blow the whole place up?
Some situation, we can show compassion by reducing the sentence like Michael Fay where he is cane for vandalism. Think of it a car that got vandalised can be send to a repair shop and repair or worst case change a new car, no big deal since no ife or suffering involve. But when it come tp drug, you think the damage can be repair so easy as send them to hospital and clean their stomach? They will DIE or at least Suffering from the ill effect which they have to live with it till the day they die.
I live in Melbourne for the past 5 years and i do see drug abuser begging for money on the streets and other thing. Sadly to say in term of social security, Singapore are way ahead of Australia. I would be very safe to walk back from any MRT station to my home then walking back to my home from a train station in Australia.
Human right and right of speech maybe important, but they are not to be misuse as in this case. Everyone have to be responsible to what they say and what they do. By misusing this two thing only result in one thing social unrest as we can see clearly from many countries that is suffering from it.
Also if my family members did smuggler drugs, i have no problem with them been getting the same treatment because they are at fault.
Finally, sanctioning Singapore in anyway will result in losses from both side, but there are many countries out there that are more then willing to fill up the holes left by Australia so in the long run Australia will be at the losing end. So the morale is show your compassion to the correct group of people. -
The general rule is that for every drug trafficking mule caught, at least 5 others (or more) go undetected. According to a report i read long ago, Singapore is a MAJOR drug transit point, both the air and the sea port. And worst of all, most drug mules caught are due to tip offs, not the vigilance of our custom officers.
Drug traffickers know FULL WELL the death penalty if caught trafficking in SG or MY, so they don't need your pity. When they signed up for the job, they know the risks.
People die everyday, why shouldn't drug traffickers? We are not here to rehabilitate all criminals.
Even with a well-known death penalty, there is already a long queue of people willing to traffick drugs through/into Singapore.
Without a death penalty, the number of people willing to traffick drugs through Singapore will quadrupple. Drugs would become so cheap in Australia (and Singapore) that it will be even more easily available.
So if we decide to have a death penalty to discourage drug smuggling, should we spare them after we've caught them? If we don't carry out a well publicised threat to eliminate all drug trafffickers, we'll be seen as a joke.
We should let the folks and would be drug traffickers Down Under and the rest of the world know that we mean business. We WILL kill every convicted drug smuggler.
Compassion? You gotta be kidding me. -
Some who argued for Nguyen said that since the drugs were not meant for singapore, death penalty should not apply. Now another one who is speaking for lighter sentence is saying that "singapore is so self-centered that they are apathetic to issues that do not affect them directly." If we do ignore those crimes that do not affect us, we will throughly be self-centered. Head you win tail I lose, hmm.... who to listen to??
Drug trafficker broke singapore law on singapore land, the oz make a fuss for a lighter sentence because the criminal is an oz. Terrorists bombed cities in Indonesia, the oz also make a fuss but for a heavier sentence because the victims were oz. It is indeed ludicrous to compare drug trafficking to terrorist bombings when different standards are applied to different cases, depending on who are the criminals and the victims.
singaporean has indeed matured as more are speaking up and defending what they believe is right. The more I read about the arguments for and against the sentence, the more I feel that we need to use the right medicine for the right illness, and strong and bitter medicine is necessary if it reduce the chances of terminal illness. Having a clear mind and putting our compassion to the right people, do not allow emotion to overrule our logic and rationale is a "progressive" mindset, is it not?
"what if Nyugen is your family member?" I would try all legal means to fight for his life, but I will not generate any publicity for it only brings shame to his family, his teachers and all around him. I will see to it that the problem of his twin brother is handled properly and the drug syndicate that paid Nguyen for the job be taken to task, I will tell the twin brother to "earn his life" which his brother has paid for. If the brother changes to a new leaf of life and ended up a good and useful man, Nguyen 's death was not in vein. If not, i pitty the mother, no amount of compassion will comfort her.
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Whatever my views, the trafficker's family has my sympathy. But I still stand by my govt's stand, for in chinese, its called ming2 zhi1 gu4 fan4.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
This debate about where who deserve death penalties is not going to end. I simply state it clearly that I believe that is a case for compassion for Nyugen this time round. I am not asking Singapore to abolish death penalties. I feel that he has gotten the raw end of the stick with the Mandatory sentencing law. His act was not directed at Singapore. Rightly or wrongly, I know deep down that there is no way now for him to escape death.
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Drug trafficker broke singapore law on singapore land, the oz make a fuss for a lighter sentence because the criminal is an oz. Terrorists bombed cities in Indonesia, the oz also make a fuss but for a heavier sentence because the victims were oz. It is indeed ludicrous to compare drug trafficking to terrorist bombings when different standards are applied to different cases, depending on who are the criminals and the victims.
This, I concur. I hope that Khoa (his twin brother) will turn a new leaf and live for his brother. I will pray for his family and Nyguen's spirit. I truly hope he has already been born again and that he will see the Lord soon.
"what if Nyugen is your family member?" I would try all legal means to fight for his life, but I will not generate any publicity for it only brings shame to his family, his teachers and all around him. I will see to it that the problem of his twin brother is handled properly and the drug syndicate that paid Nguyen for the job be taken to task, I will tell the twin brother to "earn his life" which his brother has paid for. If the brother changes to a new leaf of life and ended up a good and useful man, Nguyen 's death was not in vein. If not, i pitty the mother, no amount of compassion will comfort her.
As for people calling me a frog in a well, mind you, you is jumping to conclusion now. How much of me do you know. How do you know I haven't known of drug addicts, seen people took shots. I have had a beloved one taken a form of drug and OD'ed. So don't go tell me I don't know what it is like. Melbourne, Sydney, or major American, European cities have their fair share of drugs problem. You can even get drugs legally in Holland. I do not agree with drugs, drugs taking or drugs dealing. My hatred is at the drug lords or barons. Those that harvest drugs for pure profits. Those in the golden triangle. If Singapore is serious about dealing with drugs, go pressure the Burmese govt since Singapore has such excellent relationship with them. Killing a drug mule like Nyugen, I believe, is not effective in reducing the drug trades in the region.
I always welcome constructive debates. launtpc, please don't feel that I am targeting you. I see a lot of "strong" and unreasonable comments in many forums. My comments are just general in nature. As for people who simply assume I am just "one of those typical frog in the well ppl in australia where compassion will overwrite any logical and correct decision", well you can blame that to my Singapore upbring then huh Perhaps it was my chinese centric education (1st language chinese) education unlike all these English ed people... ha ha ... just joking.... (hao le, gen ni meng duo jian tai fei shi le) -
Something for us to consider:
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Senate slams rejected clemency plea
Monday Nov 28 22:43 AEDT
The Senate has slammed the Singaporean High Commissioner's response to its call for clemency for convicted drug trafficker Nguyen Tuong Van.
The letter, signed by Joseph K H Koh on the 16th of November, rejects the Senate's plea for clemency on behalf of the 25-year-old Melbourne man, who has been sentenced to hang on Friday.
"Singapore's decision to turn down Mr Nguyen's clemency was made only after thorough consideration of all factors relevant to Mr Nguyen's case," the letter said.
"We deeply regret that Australians are disappointed with the decision."
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Government senators along with those from Labor and the minor parties were quick to condemn the response in the Senate on Monday.
Justice Minister Chris Ellison said he was disappointed with the decision, and noted that the federal government had repeatedly tried to save Nguyen's life.
"I think in total more than 30 written or personal government representations have been made to the Singaporean government regarding Mr Nguyen," he told the Senate.
"It is with great regret that it seems that all legal avenues that might prevent Mr Nguyen's execution have been examined and exhausted."
Labor Senator Christopher Evans said the lack of detail from the Singaporean High Commissioner about why it would not grant Nguyen clemency was unacceptable.
"We are particularly disappointed that the government of Singapore has failed at any point to provide detailed responses for their decision to reject the pleas of clemency in this case," he said.
"We do not simply ask that this mans life be spared because he is an Australian citizen, we ask that it be spared because there are legitimate legal and policy grounds for doing so."
"Indeed the constitution of Singapore specifically provides for pleas of clemency in death penalty cases."
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Since you know how drugs are bad for human life and yet you side with a drug smuggler then something must be seriously wrong. No doubt drugs can be obtain easily in other countries, but in SIngapore we do not allow this to happen simply becos we know how damaging it is to the society. Yes removing the drug baron is the best way, but it is up to the country where the drug baron is located to do that. SIngapore does not have the habit of poking their nose into other country policy or law like Australia simply becos we RESPECT their countries. Therefore, we can only use capital punishment to detered ppl from trying to bring drug into SIngapore Soil.
Constructive debate is always good, but from your post all i see is compassion without thoughts on the overall issue. I was brought up in SIngapore to and i am a chinese too, i know what is right and wrong and most importantly to be responsible as well as to know when to be frim and when to be compassion.
Lastly, Singapore can achieve so much in the last 40 years is mainly because we are frim with our stand and not allowing ppl to walk all over us just because we are a small country. -
"We do not simply ask that this mans life be spared because he is an Australian citizen, we ask that it be spared because there are legitimate legal and policy grounds for doing so."
What is legitimate legal policy grounds for doing so in this case? Is it capital punishment is a NO NO in Australia? Or because he is transiting only? Or because he want to help clear his bro debt?
pleas of clemency is an option that ppl can make use of but don't forget it DOES NOT MEAN that it will always be granted. Not all crimes can be granted clemency. And Singapore have made it stand very clear to the Australian counterpart Mr John Howard, so what is not clear then? Ask ur senator to invite Mr John Howard to a round of coffee and ask him about it then all will be pretty clear. -
If we claim to be so fiercely involved in hunting down drug smugglers, it's high time we converted the CNB into a DEA-style agency and demand extra-territorial rights eh?Originally posted by strikefreedom:Since you know how drugs are bad for human life and yet you side with a drug smuggler then something must be seriously wrong. No doubt drugs can be obtain easily in other countries, but in SIngapore we do not allow this to happen simply becos we know how damaging it is to the society. Yes removing the drug baron is the best way, but it is up to the country where the drug baron is located to do that. SIngapore does not have the habit of poking their nose into other country policy or law like Australia simply becos we RESPECT their countries. Therefore, we can only use capital punishment to detered ppl from trying to bring drug into SIngapore Soil.
Constructive debate is always good, but from your post all i see is compassion without thoughts on the overall issue. I was brought up in SIngapore to and i am a chinese too, i know what is right and wrong and most importantly to be responsible as well as to know when to be frim and when to be compassion.
Lastly, Singapore can achieve so much in the last 40 years is mainly because we are frim with our stand and not allowing ppl to walk all over us just because we are a small country.
Why not use the increasing trend in extra-territorial intervention to our liking?Drug barons are a threat to our National Security?
Oh yes, while we're at it, get a UN resolution too, and give these nations a timeframe to give up these barons before we go in and kill them?
Gee.You know what, this whole issue is a huge farce.A big circus. -
What is compassion? Compassion is when Jesus saved a woman from stoning after she has been taken in adultery. Compassion is when the Lord Jesus died in our place for the redemption of our sins.
Compassion is a deep awareness of and sympathy for another's suffering
the humane quality of understanding the suffering of others and wanting to do something about it
Compassion is a sense of shared suffering, most often combined with a desire to alleviate or reduce such suffering.
Compassion transcends both natural human sympathy and normal Christian concern, enabling one to sense in others a wide range of emotions and then provide a supportive ministry of caring and intercessory prayer. Also called the gift of Mercy.
So, I pray, please tell me, how is my asking for compassion for Nyugen wrong or define logic? -
quoting the teaching of christianity that is good, but how about those ppl that are suffering due to drug? So don't they deserve compassion more then him? Also by using the name of god to get away with thing, that why there are so many sucide bombers willing to die just because ppl know how to manipulate them using religion as a tool to brainwash them.
Firstly, Singapore is still not that stupid as to use extreme policy into getting thing done to their wish like some countries does. Drugs is a sticky issue but not to the extent of waging war or sanction against other country because SIngapore respect the goverment of other countries and therefore we can only enforce heavy punishment to deter anyone that try to bring harm to us.
Yes this is a running in circles debate, but bringing it to the simplest form i guess that is YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW, so prepare to receive any punishment if you are willing to break it no matter what the reason behind is.
Well your compassion is based solely on what the bible said without having a thought at the actual situation now where many people maybe suffering if ever the drugs get on the street, so compassion to a drug smuggler isn't it become murderer to others people? -
This looks like a bad example to me.Originally posted by Joe Black:What is compassion? Compassion is when Jesus saved a woman from stoning after she has been taken in adultery. Compassion is when the Lord Jesus died in our place for the redemption of our sins.
In the Gospel, Jesus told the woman not to sin anymore.
In your hypothetical scenario, compassion to the Viet will only make drug traffickers bolder. You might save the Viet, but probably more people will die later. Utilitarianism at play heh?
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Don't remind me of my last paper man..Originally posted by Icemoon:This looks like a bad example to me.
In the Gospel, Jesus told the woman not to sin anymore.
In your hypothetical scenario, compassion to the Viet will only make drug traffickers bolder. You might save the Viet, but probably more people will die later. Utilitarianism at play heh?
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Joe:
Don't talk to these people about Christ. You are playing music for the cows. -
You both, don't bring religion into this.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Joe:
Don't talk to these people about Christ. You are playing music for the cows.
We are talking about the laws of men, not god.
Compassion for drug traffickers? Yeah, we're reall sorry we have to hang them dead. -
Tvdog,The laws of men originated from English Common Law and Magna Carta.That in return has its heritage from Christendom.Originally posted by tvdog:You both, don't bring religion into this.
We are talking about the laws of men, not god.
Compassion for drug traffickers? Yeah, we're reall sorry we have to hang them dead.
But try to keep religion out of this. -
just fugging get it on and execute 'im already, it's not like australia's an excellent ground to be at. they're a bunch of goddamn pansies, pussies and prisoners.
oh like a little foreign soil or food product is gonna kill their environment. -
I agree.Originally posted by Joe Black:I didn't ask to abolish death sentense, I simply said mandatory sentensing should be abolished. Let the judges decide when there are or no causes for appeal, or there are cause to consider lighter sentensing. In life, things are not always black and white.
What if someone is being force to carry drugs and get caught, we will only see the mandatory sentensing punishing the victims rather than the drug lords/barons or the real dealers. There are lots of flaw in the law, that's all.
I think before our Govt can claim the moral (or any other) right to hang people for drug offences, it should pull out all investment from countries that are hotbeds for drug production (often with the involvement, direct or indirect, of the governments of those countries). -
it beats the hell out of the compliant lap-dogs in the Singapore one-party system. By the way, Kerry nettle if femaleOriginally posted by ditzy:That's another opposition party member in Oz expressing his own views. Believe me, when you see thier parliament sessions, they're the next best to taiwan.
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I completely agree.Originally posted by Rexdriver:You don't have to retract your statement, Joe. Compassion can only begin when you start asking yourself questions such as the above. It is precisely because Singaporeans are so famously self-centred that they are apathetic to issues that do not affect them directly. They would place absolute premium on selfishly paranoid questions such as "what if my family member became a drug addict?" to the exclusion of all other questions when determining the fate of a fellow human being.
Proof is in the pudding when you see ludicrous posts here comparing the offence of drug trafficking to terrorist bombings and the blind belief that the death penalty is the only way to go to solve the drug problem, or for that matter, probably any other perceived big problems. You knew the punishment, you took the risk, you suffer the consequences - that is the extent of Singaporean compassion.
It is simply too much to ask of this nation a mature and progressive mindset. The only progress we understand is in terms economic. There is not even a hint of regret or shame that our nation still resorts to a very barbaric form of punishment. If we are to change that, then we better damn well start by seriously asking ourselves questions such as the one you have suggested instead of dismissing them all in the name of efficiency.
Am presently in australia for a few days on some work, and the subject of Nguyen's impending hanging has come up in quite a few of the conversations I have had with people here. Surprisingly, the number of views I have come across that understand that he has to be hung / sovereignty issues etc is more than 2/3rds. However, [and this to me is the real difference in their social mindset and ours in Singapore] even those who understand that the penalty is mandatory and that it concerns issues of national sovereignty / the boy knew it before he carried the drugs etc ... - even those poeple's views are tempered with the thinking that there must be a compassionate way out of this, that life is not all about black or white rules.
That's a reflection of a mature society, where people dont just seek to enforce rules because they exist, but where there is instead a constant questioning about whether the rules need to be re-calibrated. I suppose we're too used to not having to think about rules and punishments at home, because we have too little direct (or indirect, even) input into defining them. -
[]The Straits Times....ho ho ho...even andy HO
this pathetic lap-dog, servile, sycophantic rag of the PAP. Not even useful for that most vulgar of purposes. Hysterical, raving rubbish. look at the story on the murders at UNSW. RACISM! turned out to be nothing about racism....but did that evil rag ever say anything to apologise? And in the case of Hanson, they tried to imply she had wide support. The fact that she had under 5% of the national vote was never mentioned. And yet the Singapore opposition with closer to 20% is said to be so unpopular. Doub;e standards??? No, just orchestrated political control