Storming of Buses in case of Hostage/Terrorist situation.

• SpecOps87

  19 Jan 06, 00:18

  Was wondering, how would the police/SOF react in the event of a Hostage or Terrorist situation involving a bus. As we know, a bus is basically a rectangular shaped container with seats and wheels. Personally feel that the level of technical difficulty is much higher then that of say...an aircraft,building or ship.As the space constraint is more so on a bus and the number of shooters able to be in the bus when the shooting begins is way lesser.So if lets say someone hijacks one of them and threatens to blow it up or start killing people if their demands are not met and STAR/SOF & CBRE responds.
  
  Have read in foreign magazines/books and saw videos that the British SAS basically will swarm the bus from one side or from both the front and back. Primary weapon being that of the handgun for fear of over penetration. While a containment is setup around the site, snipers may be called in to deploy around the bus while negotations are carried out. But of course, what we are interested in is when the word "Go" is transmitted over the radios.
  
  The magazines say that from "Go" assault teams already in position will move tactically towards the bus, while the Snipers may be tasked to take out visible suspects/tangos. Once in position, the assault teams will put ladders in place, break the windows with hooligan tools and throw in flashbangs.Once those go off, in the window they go and the shooting begins.
  
  However, as I take a double-deck bus to school almost every morning, I wonder how is it possible to do a double decker take down? Have yet to seen any feasible way of raiding a double-deck bus full of hostages and tangos.
  Please share if you have any info, if OPSEC is of concern, pls.pm.Thanks!
• Shotgun

  19 Jan 06, 00:37

  Theres something like tactical ladders for such assault. Basically stair cases on wheels. Assault teams would ride in on those.
  
  Bus is a difficult situation. Extremely tight quarters, and chances of shooting civilians is high. Snipers would have to really eyeball out the terrorists really well. Chances are, shooters might have to take out the terrorist BEFORE the assault team moves in to clear out. Multiple shooters mind u, to make sure the bugger STAYS dead.
• baer

  19 Jan 06, 09:56

  Another 'FPS' wannabe?
  
  I think we should have a system to separate the serious military buffs from the X-box gamers.
  
  There was a NUS study which 'game played' the options for the Singapore Government's responses to 'incidents' (using SQ117 as example).
  
  End-game, "shoot to kill" as desired message of 'no prisioners = no need to compromise', whatever the costs.
  
  see http://137.132.114.30/sep/students/terrorism/p1.html
  
• Shotgun

  19 Jan 06, 10:52

  Hmm, how would this be FPS wanna be? Care to elaborate?
  
  The ladder systems i mentioned once appeared on pioneer mag. Though it was used to "attack" 2nd/3rd floors of HDB flats.
  
  UK SAS has similar systems too, if i am not mistaken.
• touchstone_2000

  19 Jan 06, 10:57

  As the bus upper structure is mainly glass (well in SG). It may be eaiser to just shoot perps. Care should be taken as the bullets after going through the glass may be deviated.
  
  If there is a need to physically storm the bus, there were previous instances and photos were published in ST. Sorry can't remember which country.
  
  IIRC the basic idea is attempt entry on every window using ladders.
• SpecOps87

  19 Jan 06, 11:54

  Just wondering, if those LAND ROVERS with a Ladder/Staircase would be useful.
• baer

  19 Jan 06, 13:37

  Originally posted by Shotgun:
  [b]Hmm, how would this be FPS wanna be? Care to elaborate? [b]

  original post not yours
• Icemoon

  19 Jan 06, 13:46

  how about throw some smoke and get the SOFs to fast rope down a chopper and storm from the top?
• SpecOps87

  19 Jan 06, 14:26

  Not talking bout being an "FPS" wannabe. But am interested more in the tactics employed in such a situation.
  
  Would they lob in CS using Arwen launchers, just so to confuse the enemy?
• cleong

  19 Jan 06, 14:51

  I still consider it nothing short of a miracle that Singapore's special ops team took out all of the hijackers on SQ117 without a single civilian casualty.
  
  http://www.moe.gov.sg/ne/sgstory/hijacksq.htm
• storywolf

  19 Jan 06, 15:24

  basically how to storm the bus and which part all depends on the team studying the behaviour, location and movement of the tangos and hostages.
  
  the storming will include a few teams, armed mostly with MP5, with snipers deploy around.
  
  How many teams and how many points of entry depend on the situation, of course the best is to have more entry points thus more team can get in .
  
  Usually all depends, if the bus is in the open, and terrain, if open and allow, vehicles with Ladders will be use. But if not permit then the poor team may have to do the good one running with ladder ...
  
  Sniper will of course take out tango if possible at the moment of go ! that will bring down the number to tango the entry team will face. MP5 is still the perfer weapon, as it is more accurate then pistols which situation required. As for over penetration, Mp5 uses also 9mm like pistols thus that is not too much of a worry.
• insouciant

  19 Jan 06, 15:50

  Originally posted by storywolf:

  basically how to storm the bus and which part all depends on the team studying the behaviour, location and movement of the tangos and hostages.
  
  the storming will include a few teams, armed mostly with MP5, with snipers deploy around.
  
  How many teams and how many points of entry depend on the situation, of course the best is to have more entry points thus more team can get in .
  
  Usually all depends, if the bus is in the open, and terrain, if open and allow, vehicles with Ladders will be use. But if not permit then the poor team may have to do the good one running with ladder ...
  
  Sniper will of course take out tango if possible at the moment of go ! that will bring down the number to tango the entry team will face. MP5 is still the perfer weapon, as it is more accurate then pistols which situation required. As for over penetration, Mp5 uses also 9mm like pistols thus that is not too much of a worry.

  Actually it also depends on the type of bullet used. Not all 9mm rounds are the same. They have those that are designed not to penetrate too far, esp used by the air marshalls.
• pie

  19 Jan 06, 15:55

  I don't know about using flashbangs in such an enclosed space? I think some passengers like elderly or children may be injured if it explodes too close?
• lwflee

  19 Jan 06, 16:26

  Originally posted by insouciant:

  Actually it also depends on the type of bullet used. Not all 9mm rounds are the same. They have those that are designed not to penetrate too far, esp used by the air marshalls.

  Those are franjible rounds, designed to break up on impact.
• |-|05|

  19 Jan 06, 19:10

  You know i have not known a situation where a bus has been stormed without casualties to the innocents.
  Worse still is the fact that our buses are all aircon and thus no open windows
• SpecOps87

  19 Jan 06, 20:20

  well,at least they don't have to remove the safety bars like those in non-air con buses?
• 12qwaszx

  19 Jan 06, 21:43

  Originally posted by lwflee:

  Those are franjible rounds, designed to break up on impact.

  if you are refering to the same rounds used for POI, those will still kill
• lwflee

  19 Jan 06, 21:59

  I know frangible rounds can still kill. That is what air marshalls use , i'm told.
  
  As for POI, I am not commenting on what we use. Ball, Frangible, expanding rounds, etc, who knows!
• chunyong

  19 Jan 06, 22:14

  ok...i will comment....
  
  1st, front and back of bus will be stopped by cars to prevent the bus from reversing or driving further...dis will be arupt for Element of Surprise..how dis is done will not be revealed.
  
  then officers will dash towards the bus, one fella will squat abit, back against the bus body and 'push' another upwards into the bus through the windows...the officers will not go in the bus from the window. Another will go for the driver section, another perform entry via the door...bangers might be used.
  
  for doubledecker a similar approach but ladders will be used
  
  snipers won't be used as its not effective as the wholething will be over in under a min and if the bus requires the useage of snipers...means its most likely screwed up already
• SpecOps87

  19 Jan 06, 22:32

  If the Assault team is using frangible ammo, and the tangos are wearing body armour, won't it have no effect on them at all?
  
  However, I do understand that the US SWAT and FBI's HRT uses a type of ammo, they call it the "SWAT" load, it allows armour penetration but will mash its projectile head and on contact with soft tissue,it will stay lodged in it and not go through like the normal "ball" round.
• lwflee

  19 Jan 06, 23:16

  Originally posted by SpecOps87:

  If the Assault team is using frangible ammo, and the tangos are wearing body armour, won't it have no effect on them at all?
  
  However, I do understand that the US SWAT and FBI's HRT uses a type of ammo, they call it the "SWAT" load, it allows armour penetration but will mash its projectile head and on contact with soft tissue,it will stay lodged in it and not go through like the normal "ball" round.

  There are many types of rounds out there lah...All claim a lot of things. I think i heard of that round before. Penetrates bullet proof glass, but is stopped by gelatin or something. But dunno reliable enough to use operationally?
  
  I'd think that if they are wearing body armor then clearly wun use frangible round loh.
• SpecOps87

  19 Jan 06, 23:28

  But one thing which really bothers me is this, in a bus or double-decker, you only have this much space. So if the assaulters swarm from the front and rear, won't they risk a blue-on-blue?And yes, i agree they are highly trained, but accidents do happen.
• Shotgun

  20 Jan 06, 00:23

  how to enter from rear of aircon double decker...?
• SpecOps87

  20 Jan 06, 12:31

  Entrance from the rear of the double-decker bus can be done by smashing the rear-windows. Although there are some buses which do not have a rear-window. Thus, assault team might have to smash the front windows and initiate the assault from there then.
• bcoy

  20 Jan 06, 12:46

  Domestic hostage rescue (buses) should be the domain of STAR right? I've seen their land rovers with ladders all the time. As STAR has training attachments with Hong Kong's SDU, I'm very sure its been practised many times before.
  
  http://www.spf.gov.sg/about_spf/star/index.htm
  
  It seems that STAR has maritime assualt and diving teams as well. So does the SOF and NDU.