Buried News: F16D shot down by Mirage 2000EGM
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Yes I do understand the concept of ENERGY. And honestly speaking, an F-16 loses energy way too fast to want to merge with a vertical manuever.Originally posted by 38�Ž:Well, if you don't have this in mind that the single most import factor of the WVR air combat is the “ENERGY”, then I don’t think we can set up a measurable discussion at all.
An eye contact is that essential when u r in a merge with bandits and pretty sure their IR AAM has launched towards you? The other thing a pilot won’t delay to do in such situation is pulling out his bird from the reach of the AAM. And by which means? High G maneuver. In an assumed co-altitude/co-energy merge, it’s obvious the 1st fighter makes the horizontal separation( turn left or right) will be in great disadvantage because you inevitable will explore your hot a$$ 1st to your opponent and receive a warm tailor-on shot. You dive, better still. Your opponent will catch the altitude advantage and in a down –shoot position, his AAM will gain energy while dashing down.
So the option left is you pulling up an option you so hard to accept but quite a common practice of many merge encountering. You only look at it’s losing the speed but never notice that you are gaining the altitude and better angle to the off boresight of the opponent plane, and at the last, you can settle behind the bandit and above it if you like . As I said you maneuver because you want to escape the AAM and gain the position behind the opponent fighter. When the time u pull up and roll, the AAM tracking ur fighter also has to do the same. Depend on which one bleed energy fast and exhaust 1st. because you make the Immelman 1st, you got the “ lead turn”, if unluckily the AAM’s inertia makes the AAM passed your jet then the part of the AAM’s energy inherent from its launching fighter will become negative, which means the AAM has actually use its limited energy to overcome its energy inherent from the inertia before purely used to catch you. Another disadvantage of the IR AAM is its seeker, the seeker always has to face your hottest spot and then determine the missile’s next move, don’t like the radar guided AAM, why so significant? Because you know, when your fighter in high G, the plane’s hottest A$$ will always some times to the left, some times to the right, sometimes up, some times down while the fighter’s nose will relatively not move such widely. Because the seeker always intend to follow your jet’s hottest part, then the AAM most likely will travel in “S” sharp while you plane just do smooth curve of Immelman. Which one bleed energy faster? The 1 with loop plus S sharp cat walk or the 1 just do the smooth loop? Remember, the more G, the more energy you will lose. The more energy your opponent tend to lose, the more chance you win
I still disagree with the immelmen option on the merge. It has its merits but what you're saying is that, whoever who goes into the "lead" turn first, will allow the other aircraft a shot at ur a$$, which is sometimes true. But so does going into an immelmen on the merge... if u climb first, and I climb a lil later (assuming im not gonna just call a fox 2 and break for it), I will even have a guns solution on ur "rolling" jet.
The whole concept of lead turns has always been about timing. Like u said, u execute the lead turn way to early, and its a short funeral. Turn to late, and it becomes a lag turn. But there are always ways to remedy it if you have the energy to... eg a High-G yoyo, or a Low-G yoyo. If i turn too late, and im in a lag turn, i'd pitch a bit lower and opt for a low-g-yoyo... of course, the defending fighter would probably counter with the same maneuver, or a high-g yoyo to generate an overshoot if the range is close enuff.
But if u enter into a vertical on merge, you're losing airspeed (KE) in the MIDDLE OF THE fight. Even if its just for 2 - 3 seconds. The amount of (PE) gained, is it worth it? Or can I do more with a 10-sec afterburner? What is fuel if u don't burn it? It is useless weight. I wouldn't worry about having not enough fuel in the middle of a dogfight. I only need to know how long i can turn and burn before i need to bug out. If i am low on fuel before combat, i will say nicely to hellenic atc, "I'm so sorry, I stepped over the border? No problem, I will just correct my course east to take me out of your airspace into international airspace. have a nice day ."
About the AAM factor. To dodge and AAM, u need to displace DISTANCE. Cimbing into a vertical doesn't displace much distance. In fact, to the AAM, it doesn't make a difference. Coming at more than mach 3, it just see ur vertical climb as an "end game". All aspect WVR AAMs prevalent today just don't go for ur tailpipes anymore. No matter how much missiles like the Sidewinder "S" curves, the laser fuse would still detonate the missile fragments into cone area of destruction in front of the missile. Hence most counter missile manuevers work to get OUT of that cone... not slowing down and hopin the missile won't acquire or miss.
If it wasn't for the fact that both countries are not at war, they'd probably launch their AAMs at max range and still get their kills. -
When we are talking the merge in AAM WVR terms, it means both fighters enter each otherÂ’s IR AAMÂ’s range. So not necessarily to be close enough, because too close, you enter your opponent AAMÂ’s non-escape zone( NEZ), which no matter by what means, you couldnÂ’t pull your bird out of the AAMÂ’s kiss. Therefore, the lead turn could be somewhere between the AAMÂ’s max range to the NEZ, thatÂ’s really depending on the pilotÂ’s judgment.Originally posted by Shotgun:Yes I do understand the concept of ENERGY. And honestly speaking, an F-16 loses energy way too fast to want to merge with a vertical manuever.
I still disagree with the immelmen option on the merge. It has its merits but what you're saying is that, whoever who goes into the "lead" turn first, will allow the other aircraft a shot at ur a$$, which is sometimes true. But so does going into an immelmen on the merge... if u climb first, and I climb a lil later (assuming im not gonna just call a fox 2 and break for it), I will even have a guns solution on ur "rolling" jet.
The whole concept of lead turns has always been about timing. Like u said, u execute the lead turn way to early, and its a short funeral. Turn to late, and it becomes a lag turn. But there are always ways to remedy it if you have the energy to... eg a High-G yoyo, or a Low-G yoyo. If i turn too late, and im in a lag turn, i'd pitch a bit lower and opt for a low-g-yoyo... of course, the defending fighter would probably counter with the same maneuver, or a high-g yoyo to generate an overshoot if the range is close enuff.
But if u enter into a vertical on merge, you're losing airspeed (KE) in the MIDDLE OF THE fight. Even if its just for 2 - 3 seconds. The amount of (PE) gained, is it worth it? Or can I do more with a 10-sec afterburner? What is fuel if u don't burn it? It is useless weight. I wouldn't worry about having not enough fuel in the middle of a dogfight. I only need to know how long i can turn and burn before i need to bug out. If i am low on fuel before combat, i will say nicely to hellenic atc, "I'm so sorry, I stepped over the border? No problem, I will just correct my course east to take me out of your airspace into international airspace. have a nice day ."
About the AAM factor. To dodge and AAM, u need to displace DISTANCE. Cimbing into a vertical doesn't displace much distance. In fact, to the AAM, it doesn't make a difference. Coming at more than mach 3, it just see ur vertical climb as an "end game". All aspect WVR AAMs prevalent today just don't go for ur tailpipes anymore. No matter how much missiles like the Sidewinder "S" curves, the laser fuse would still detonate the missile fragments into cone area of destruction in front of the missile. Hence most counter missile manuevers work to get OUT of that cone... not slowing down and hopin the missile won't acquire or miss.
If it wasn't for the fact that both countries are not at war, they'd probably launch their AAMs at max range and still get their kills.
If u use “energy” concept to have a second look at the issue, then you’ll find if the AAM got a speed of M3, while your fighter escapes @M1, the AAM is in definitely a superior energy state, Definitely u want to change such an energy disadvantage of your bird, do you? By much means, trying to maintain ur bird’s speed, don’t lose it to the altitude or angle changes? Well, you know by this mean, you forever won’t change the situation too much, the missile will catch u at a much faster speed. If u turn ur after burner on, ur speed won’t accelerated too much but only presented a hotter body to the greedy IR AAM. But if you make tighter turn by means of losing your speed, say u r making a 7G turn @ Mach 1, so judge what will happen to the missile follows u? it has to make a 3X7=21G turn if it travels @ Mach 3. see, the AAM is losing the ERNEGY at a much faster rate than you do, why not you just turn as hard as you can and lose your speed if necessary -
Okay, im wondering if we have misunderstood each other over the "lead turn" thing.Originally posted by 38�Ž:When we are talking the merge in AAM WVR terms, it means both fighters enter each other’s IR AAM’s range. So not necessarily to be close enough, because too close, you enter your opponent AAM’s non-escape zone( NEZ), which no matter by what means, you couldn’t pull your bird out of the AAM’s kiss. Therefore, the lead turn could be somewhere between the AAM’s max range to the NEZ, that’s really depending on the pilot’s judgment.
If u use “energy” concept to have a second look at the issue, then you’ll find if the AAM got a speed of M3, while your fighter escapes @M1, the AAM is in definitely a superior energy state, Definitely u want to change such an energy disadvantage of your bird, do you? By much means, trying to maintain ur bird’s speed, don’t lose it to the altitude or angle changes? Well, you know by this mean, you forever won’t change the situation too much, the missile will catch u at a much faster speed. If u turn ur after burner on, ur speed won’t accelerated too much but only presented a hotter body to the greedy IR AAM. But if you make tighter turn by means of losing your speed, say u r making a 7G turn @ Mach 1, so judge what will happen to the missile follows u? it has to make a 3X7=21G turn if it travels @ Mach 3. see, the AAM is losing the ERNEGY at a much faster rate than you do, why not you just turn as hard as you can and lose your speed if necessary
My Definition of a lead turn, is when i place my flight path indicator in front of the opposing jet. Hence my flight path indicator is "leading" my target. WHEN i start this turn is important... too late, I may have to lose airspeed, rack up G's and we end up in a 2 circle fight with both of us trying to turn into each other.
Hence generally, in a lead turn, there is a slight stalemate there if the performance of the 2 aircraft are similar. eg. F-16 vs MiG-29. at the altitude. I believe the problem here with WVR weapons, for this case an all-aspect heat seeker like the matra magic 2, is staying out of the NEZ. If possible outside the WEZ totally. But unfortunately, because of a merge process, we are bound to get into each other's WEZ eventually. So now, the problem is staying OUT of the NEZ. Since i'm unfamiliar with Mirage 2000 systems, i will explain my case using the viper's analogy.
When I'm locked up to a bandit who is in range of my AIM-9M, i see my R1 R2 max and min. Chances are, he would be between my R1 min and max... my WEZ. But, if his movement is perpendicular my flight... in otherwords he puts me on the beam all the while, he would not be in between my R2 min and max(NEZ). He would be outside it. The closer he' gets, the tighter my R2 min and max gets too... cos chances are, if he see's me launch, he can break sharply towards me, drop flares, and my missile would either MISS him for the or, he would not take much damage as he would be outside the "kill cone" of the missile. Hence, because of this possible outcome, he would be outside my R2 min and max.
This is what I meant when I said the F-16 in the HUD shot, was probably taken soon after entering a 1 circle flight, where the defending aircraft, (F-16) opted to turn AWAY from the Mirage2000 instead of INTO it. This would decrease the Mirage's chances with an all aspect missile such as the Magic 2. Putting the F-16 outside R2min max. Personally, I would like to enter into a scissors after that, just to see what the mirage can do.
About the energy factor. You are right, the Missile is of a higher energy state than the jet at ANYTIME. Hence, u are also right that u have to use the higher energy state to your advantage. And I believe we are both on a similar concept. Just that, I prefer to keep my bandit on my beam, so that the missile launched has a better chance of zipping past me before it's cone goes off.
To me, dropping airspeed beyond my corner airspeed only makes me a easier target for a missile. Simply cause, the missile doesn't have to work as hard to catch me. Closure speed is also higher, hence I don't get to live half a second or 1 second longer. As u can see, I'm quite pessimistic about a WVR missile launch. Reason is, missiles are getting more and more accurate, and their NEZ much larger than the Magic2 or Sidewinder. Personally, I've not been able to out turn or survive against an R-73 launched off boresight in most simulation. With improved missiles that give the shooter a 2 hit opportunity, its best not to even get into a WVR situation. -
A handle named Duplex as self declared once to be the pilot of the HAF Mirage 2000has commented the following in the F-16.net, rare insider
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-1872-start-45.html
... A good pilot in an M2K will kill a good pilot in an F-16 9 out of 10 times (1 provided for launch failure).
I served in an M2K fighter squadron in HAF. We analyzed tactics and combat scores against HAF F-16 squadrons all the time.
The M2Ks higher INSTANTANEOUS turn rate gives it an advantage during the first pass. The F-16 cannot outturn the Mirage. It has to climb in hopes of avoiding the lock. A good M2K pilot will end it right there (the Magic 2 is a better IR weapon than the AIM-9L/M).
A rookie in the M2K, however, will probably lose the F-16's climb. The more powerful viper will escape and will then gain the advantage because of 1) Altitude 2) Higher SUSTAINABLE turn rate.
As for turn rates, altitude differences are purely theoretical and in practice make no difference EXCEPT for sea level manuevers where the more powerful Viper starts gaining the advantage.
Would you agree with the statement that F-16 is a better choice for multi role missions than Mirage 2000 ?
Absolutely. The M2K is a multi-role fighter also, but its performance varies greatly among roles - whereas the Viper performs almost all missions at a very satisfactory level.
HAF M2Ks are specialized. 331's (where I served) primary role is now TASMO (naval strike with AM-39 Exocet) and 332's primary role will become Deep Strike (with SCALP EG). CAP & Air Supremacy are their secondary roles.
The F-16 sqdns OTOH undertake a number of roles such as SEAD, CAP, CAS, and numerous specialized strike missions (enemy AFBs, enemy C&C centers etc). The Viper is a much more volatile weapons system