Malaysian Tanks
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No sweat...and yeah..forgot bout the DU munitions.But can the 30mm Avenger on the A10 fire other types of 30mm rounds? Say Armour Piercing High Explosive? Or Armour Piercing Incendiary?Originally posted by fallin:I'd like to offer my view despite me not being moca
I think this issue has popped up before and somebody mentioned about the political liability of use DU ammunition. So, if we get A-10s, I think their capabilities will be reduced somewhat due to this restriction. -
anybody know how much penetration power the 30mm on our BXIIs have?
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no ideaOriginally posted by beavan:anybody know how much penetration power the 30mm on our BXIIs have?
but there is a exhibit outside the armor muesum at Sungei Gedong camp
which shows the penetration depth of the 25mm one
maybe some1 from that camp can help take a look ? -
Penetration of the 30mm is 50% or 100% more than that of a 25 mm. I forgot which one. Either way it's a lot better in terms of performance.
Giving my opinion on our Apaches.
The thing is not only are heli-pilots rare stuff (and the constant vibration has long term detrimental injury to your joints), we do not use AHs the way the US does...IE a hunting pack of X choppers.
I think we deploy AHs to go after higher priced targets/delay enemy counterattacks and slow enemy advance as ours work mainly in pairs to make full use of the Longbow radar. Basically if we do that, we blunt their offense, keep them off balance even when we are still regrouping and are vunerable.
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With regards to the A-10 thunderbolt, the general consensus is that the current planes are a "nice to have" for the US since they are flying so well. If they really feel the A-10's crucial, they would have restarted the production line. Dont forget that the A-10s are old and are without replacement. Not to mention , like all heavy armoured attack aircraft, AA missiles are a threat - since agility/speed/mobility is limited, you have to rely purely on your defense system to handle them.
The idea of a "Spectre" style Gunship would cost alot of $$$ and generate more whining from the neighbours than what's it's worth. I rather we have more SPHs that can do a less risky but equally painful job. -
The A-10's UNIQUE role, if I am not wrong, is that of a dedicated tank buster. It has the ability to linger, take punishment, fly at a "relak-satu" pace and kill AFV with its gatling gun.Originally posted by SpecOps87:Moca/Chino...whats your view on the use of A-10s to supplement our Apache tank killers?
Also...in-case somebody comes and kpkb say think of logistical costs and what not...I offer alternate solution with what we already have...the C130 converted to the Spectre gunship config.
Its other role of aerial bombing, rocketing, firing guided munitions etc can also be fulfilled by any existing conventional fighter/bomber with equal effectiveness.
Again, I say the same thing: We already have more F-16's than MAF have MBTs. Do we need another dedicated tank killer?
IMHO, even if money/logistics is not a problem, we should get more dual role fighter/bombers like the F-16 instead of a purely dedicated tank-buster aircraft.
A fighter/bomber may stand a chance against enemy fighters and AA missiles. An A-10 less so (as I just noticed CM06 has also mentioned).
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There must be good reasons why the A-10 is a one-off. No new A-10's are being procured and no new replacement for the A-10 is in line.
I think that as things stand, we already have enough assets to deal with enemy armour from the air already.
If we're really pressed, re-activate the Super Skyhawks - they are almost like the A-10 minus the gatling gun and armour. Definitely one of the best attack aircrafts every built.
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C-130 Spectre Gunship idea is good if you have a lot of spare C-130s, which we don't. Also, C-130 Gunship role can be accomplished by existing fighter/bombers - which also stand a better chance of evading AA missiles and defending itself from enemy aircrafts than the gunship. We are not fighting jungle VCs. -
It is inmy opinion that the A10 was developed to blunt a Soviet armoured attack across the cold war. It's usefullness is not so apparant now that the soviet bear is gone.
Just my opnion. I didn't read any military book or even the internet. -
The part about A10 being developed for the European theater [Germany in particular] holds true. You need a truely dedicated airborne tank buster to kill them hordes of Soviet tanks charging thru the East German border towards West Germany.Originally posted by chanjyj:It is inmy opinion that the A10 was developed to blunt a Soviet armoured attack across the cold war. It's usefullness is not so apparant now that the soviet bear is gone.
Just my opnion. I didn't read any military book or even the internet. -
Oh by the way, the A-10 HAS a replacement:
Welcome the AGM-154 A.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/agm-154.htm
Flying pigs of cluster submunitions. More accurate work with way less risks!
Yes yes we ordered some with our Eagles. Dont need A-10, -
What`s the fuss about this thing? They bought erm years ago and even had a logistical issue about spare parts which i hardly think they have resolved satisfactorily.
It is the the Malaysian answer to the bionix. They did not have much of a choice given thier budget. Bionix is better of course. The latter won the US army`s competition to replace thier old systems remember. Too bad they went for the Strykers otherwise ST would have been a few billion dollars richer. Singapore`s IFV/APC complement(working numbers) outnumber thiers. But at least they`ve got something decent amongst thier other forays into the global arms market. There`s nothing to be scared about the sightings of Adnans in Johor. We`ve got more equipment concentrated in Singapore than they could even dream of putting in Johor relatively and`sanely' speaking.
I do recall a conversation I had during the last AA where this ST dude said that the 25mm gun on the Bionix 1 is capable of punching through anything the Malaysians have saved the Twardy tanks. -
i know this should have stop...but i cant help it. It is so funny.
Hopefully these tanks will not leak in water, like those in which ex-president Habibe purchased out-dated World War II tanks from Germany. On its maiden journey to Indonesia some of these tanks leaked in water and reportedly sunk into oceans.
read the blue line.... tanks swam from german to indonesia and sunk in the middle of its journey...In my earlier posting, I mentioned 2 issues. The lst one concerned M'sia's intention to acquire tanks from Poland.
the dolly parton is not a ww2 tanks.
The other was about Habibe who most of us know him to be an Indonesian, procuring German tanks from Germany.
which never happen
For the millions who live in S.E. Asian countries and who have been reading newspapers often and seeing Habibe's face on tv during Suharto's time, we alll know him to be an Indonesian. There can be no mistake about Habibe's nationality. You youself appear to be 'very blur'
....so is there any connection between mahathir and habibie?..some more both didnt bought any ww2 tank?For the time he spent in Germany, Habibe thought he had a good deal when he settled on a fleet of dyfunctional German tanks from Germany. unfortunately some of them were found to have leaked in water.
the only thing that he bought is ships..hence it leaks..and allegedly sunk.. not tank..furthermore..only ah beng call tanks 'fleet'.... -
*cough*Originally posted by Arthas79:What`s the fuss about this thing? They bought erm years ago and even had a logistical issue about spare parts which i hardly think they have resolved satisfactorily.
It is the the Malaysian answer to the bionix. They did not have much of a choice given thier budget. Bionix is better of course. The latter won the US army`s competition to replace thier old systems remember. Too bad they went for the Strykers otherwise ST would have been a few billion dollars richer. Singapore`s IFV/APC complement(working numbers) outnumber thiers. But at least they`ve got something decent amongst thier other forays into the global arms market. There`s nothing to be scared about the sightings of Adnans in Johor. We`ve got more equipment concentrated in Singapore than they could even dream of putting in Johor relatively and`sanely' speaking.
I do recall a conversation I had during the last AA where this ST dude said that the 25mm gun on the Bionix 1 is capable of punching through anything the Malaysians have saved the Twardy tanks.
Must take note that Weapon and Armour are two different things.
The 25mm CG bushmaster is capable of going through most of our vehicles too to set things straight.... -
*cough*
duh yes..in the context of the new Adnan which the MAF is getting of course.
Must take note that Weapon and Armour are two different things.
The 25mm CG bushmaster is capable of going through most of our vehicles too to set things straight.... -
anyone have any detail on the group of apache that were ambushed in iraq?
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In brief, what happened? Or was it circumstantial? Nothing is immune. However, it is better to have the Apaches then not having it; especially with air-power on your side. As a matter of fact, more and more countries are buying attack helicopters. Has the Apache combat helicoptet failed in it`s objective when the US built/used it? Ans:No. It has fulfilled it`s original objectives.
Recently, I read about an ingenious device which can be equipped on a combat helicopter. It functions like the Trophy system(concept-wise but not execution) in that it releases miniture rockets which will eject a net at any projectile fired at it. The net will then capture the projectile and due to the weight of the net and projectile, they will fall to the ground. I`ll see if i can find it again.
The Apaches can be equipped with Aim-9 series missiles as well if Im not wrong.
At any rate, the current series of conflicts are proving the worth of attack helicopters but it also helps in coming up with better solutions to increase thier survivability. The Israelis are even considering increasing the armaments of normal medium-lift military helicopters so that they can function as aerial gunships. -
Are you referring to Karbala Gap ?Originally posted by tankfanatic:anyone have any detail on the group of apache that were ambushed in iraq? -
i donno. i heard this story from nat geo about a group of 70 apache on the way to destroy a bunch of iraqi RG tank who is menuvering for counter attack. Whe the apache fly by a small town, an iraqi colonel saw it and call his counterpart at the nearby town using his handphone. So his friend arrange everything that can fire at the sky and wait. the apache got into the trap... and every single ac rtb with damage. In the end of the war only 2 apache return for operational duty.
i guess nat geo have diff pespective on this -
donno. i heard this story from nat geo about a group of 70 apache on the way to destroy a bunch of iraqi RG tank who is menuvering for counter attack. Whe the apache fly by a small town, an iraqi colonel saw it and call his counterpart at the nearby town using his handphone. So his friend arrange everything that can fire at the sky and wait. the apache got into the trap... and every single ac rtb with damage. In the end of the war only 2 apache return for operational duty.
please provide evidence of this. link ? article? Do not say that you`ve heard this story about so and so. What are you? a rumor-mongerer? 2 out of 70 apaches return to operational duty in the end of the war ? Are you sure? Do you even know how many Apaches were deployed in the first place ? What a wuss...
i guess nat geo have diff pespective on this
The fact remains. Having it is a great force multiplier. And too bad for the monkies they train thier sights on. -
u prick, i said i saw it in national geograpic! this jounalist interviewing this apache pilot ..and that is what he blurt out!
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I think the American's previous excursion to Iraq led them to believe that their Apaches were invulnerable to everything except Shorads.
I guess they were wrong... again. Its no secret that the Yanks lost quite a number of apaches in the sandbox. One of them happened to be a pretty well liked forumer on one of the Jet-sim forums. Kinda sad, he only got his wings a few months ago before they sent him there. -
u prick, i said i saw it in national geograpic! this jounalist interviewing this apache pilot ..and that is what he blurt out!
You can say whatever you want MyVi to discredit the Apache. This is nonsense unless you can show some evidence which was what i had asked for.
The fact is the Apache is good to have. Even your muddled headed military officials(a fact) would understand this. -
The story is true, one of the first few engagements of the war had the Yanks send in a massive Apache force to engage some Republican Guard division and the mission ended in failure after they encountered extremely heavy ground fire and had to retreat after losing a bird and have most of the rest seriously damaged. If you remember, the crew was captured and paraded on Iraqi TV.
In the AAR it was determined that the problem was not with the Apache, but with the tactics that the unit had been using- they went in Cold War style en masses, stayed stationary and attempted to pick off targets while hovering. Unfortunately the enemy did not deploy in a conventional way and was able to put up a “hornet’s nest” anti air defence with just about any barrel they could point into the sky and simply overwhelmed the Yanks.
The fact that they only lost a bird and the rest made it back despite taking such a pounding is a testament to the excellent design of the chopper, which saved its crews from their own bad tactics. I doubt any other attack chopper would have done better had they been used in that scrap.
Following that, the Yanks learned from their mistake and deployed their Apaches in diffused groups, using terrain for cover and never standing still as they fired, and sure enough the chopper and their crews lived up to their reputation again.
Having a great equipment is only half the battle, how you play your cards is another thing as well. -
The fact that they only lost a bird and the rest made it back despite taking such a pounding is a testament to the excellent design of the chopper, which saved its crews from their own bad tactics. I doubt any other attack chopper would have done better had they been used in that scrap.
Probably one of the chief reasons why more countries are buying them.
MyVi said;In the end of the war only 2 apache return for operational duty.
Proof this. Im sure you understand the disparity between battle and war. Big? Small? -
They learned from their mistake? I don't know if I could stomach this one. The previous doctrine they used back in '91 worked! They were using terrain for masking, and deployed the apaches into smaller hunter/killer packages that attacked from different directions. Variation of altitude and maximizing the awesome range of hellfires.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:The story is true, one of the first few engagements of the war had the Yanks send in a massive Apache force to engage some Republican Guard division and the mission ended in failure after they encountered extremely heavy ground fire and had to retreat after losing a bird and have most of the rest seriously damaged. If you remember, the crew was captured and paraded on Iraqi TV.
In the AAR it was determined that the problem was not with the Apache, but with the tactics that the unit had been using- they went in Cold War style en masses, stayed stationary and attempted to pick off targets while hovering. Unfortunately the enemy did not deploy in a conventional way and was able to put up a “hornet’s nest” anti air defence with just about any barrel they could point into the sky and simply overwhelmed the Yanks.
The fact that they only lost a bird and the rest made it back despite taking such a pounding is a testament to the excellent design of the chopper, which saved its crews from their own bad tactics. I doubt any other attack chopper would have done better had they been used in that scrap.
Following that, the Yanks learned from their mistake and deployed their Apaches in diffused groups, using terrain for cover and never standing still as they fired, and sure enough the chopper and their crews lived up to their reputation again.
Having a great equipment is only half the battle, how you play your cards is another thing as well.
It was a mistake they didn't have to make if they had kept their heads level and plan their missions properly. The lessons were there before '91. They simply forgot. -
You can say whatever you want MyVi to discredit the Apache. This is nonsense unless you can show some evidence which was what i had asked for.
my vi? ARE YOU BLIND! READ MY NAME!!!!!
The fact is the Apache is good to have. Even your muddled headed military officials(a fact) would understand this.
i only want to know the detail about the ambush! i didnt say apache were bad!
when i say only 2 remain operational i meant...by the time the war is over there is no need to press the repair to operational status to join the war. So instead all of the Apache involved were shiped back to the states for investigation! -
only want to know the detail about the ambush! i didnt say apache were bad!
Yes, im sure that you will realize that it is a good assault aerial platform.