Malaysia's Astro2 a threat?
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With the malaysian newly brought MLRS , a new system was not onli being introduced into the Singapore's surrounding region ( after thailand ) , it also prove to be a real threat to us in war.
To counter this threat , Singapore annouced the aqquirement of the LongBow Apaches .
The question is .....
Firstly ,on ur opinion is the aqquiring of the MLRS a major threat to Singapore.Wat stratigical objective can Malaysia gain , agaisnt us.
Secondly is the Apaches useful on picky out the MLRS in dense enemy's SAM envelope .
Thirdly , y isnt Singapore yet purchasing any MLRS to counter a wake of attack.
And fourthly ,wat are the tactics to prevent a deadly wake of saturated rocket attack during war time.
I will like to know ur opinions , pls do enlighten mi....thX. -
Thirdly , y isnt Singapore yet purchasing any MLRS to counter a wake of attack.
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sorry, i mean to return a wave of attack....... -
To counter this, we shud stop visiting malaysia, they use our tourist dollars to buy arms that one day use against us.Originally posted by foxtrout8:With the malaysian newly brought MLRS , a new system was not onli being introduced into the Singapore's surrounding region ( after thailand ) , it also prove to be a real threat to us in war.
To counter this threat , Singapore annouced the aqquirement of the LongBow Apaches .
The question is .....
Firstly ,on ur opinion is the aqquiring of the MLRS a major threat to Singapore.Wat stratigical objective can Malaysia gain , agaisnt us.
Secondly is the Apaches useful on picky out the MLRS in dense enemy's SAM envelope .
Thirdly , y isnt Singapore yet purchasing any MLRS to counter a wake of attack.
And fourthly ,wat are the tactics to prevent a deadly wake of saturated rocket attack during war time.
I will like to know ur opinions , pls do enlighten mi....thX.
But I think bigger threat is their purchased of Metis-M in unknown quantities.
Metis-M btw is thermobaric weapon very effective weapons for fighting in built up areas. -
Thirdly , y isnt Singapore yet purchasing any MLRS to counter a wake of attack
Singapore is seriously studying the prospect of buying the SS 21 Scarab SRBM according to Asia Pacific Defence Reporter.......
With the right warhead can cause a lot of damage far away.
I wonder if this is wise. Maybe Malaysia should consider basing the Astros in Sarawak or something...... -
Can anyone provide any pictures, statistics or articles on the above-mentioned SS 21 SRBM? I think a lot of us will be very excited to hear more about this MRLS. Thanks
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it is ASTROS II not Astro II
note the 's' -
Buzz,I dont really know what makes you think that singapore is seriously considering SS 21 as an Astro MRLS counter-purchase.Originally posted by buzz:Singapore is seriously studying the prospect of buying the SS 21 Scarab SRBM according to Asia Pacific Defence Reporter.......
With the right warhead can cause a lot of damage far away.
I wonder if this is wise. Maybe Malaysia should consider basing the Astros in Sarawak or something......
.This is something which i just couldnt accept meaning quite doubtful about the source of the report.
Even if such consideration do exist it will eventually be categorise as highly classified military secrets. Probably a detail information on Singapore is seriously studying the prospect of buying the SS 21 Scarab SRBM according to Asia Pacific Defence Reporter....... can be posted into this forum -
Carry On..
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Did a search on yahoo [ss-21 AND singapore] came up wif 13 hits but none of them mention singapore interest them leh.Originally posted by Orcishwarrior:Buzz,I dont really know what makes you think that singapore is seriously considering SS 21 as an Astro MRLS counter-purchase. .This is something which i just couldnt accept meaning quite doubtful about the source of the report.
Even if such consideration do exist it will eventually be categorise as highly classified military secrets. Probably a detail information on Singapore is seriously studying the prospect of buying the SS 21 Scarab SRBM according to Asia Pacific Defence Reporter....... can be posted into this forum -
Buzz,I dont really know what makes you think that singapore is seriously considering SS 21 as an Astro MRLS counter-purchase.
Ok will go back to the article and recollect the exact phrases used. I remember they have asked for detailed technical briefing on the system......and a team from Russia was here for that recently???
I actually don't think Sg should buy this thing even though it's quite a cost effective counter to the Astros II. It will escalate the whole thing out of proportion. So let's take the report with a pinch of salt. -
hmm... ss-21 scarab successor to the frog. according to news group effective range ony 8-38miles not veri exciting leh? Could be Sg again buy obsolete technology den do own R&D for other purposes?Originally posted by buzz:Ok will go back to the article and recollect the exact phrases used. I remember they have asked for detailed technical briefing on the system......and a team from Russia was here for that recently???
I actually don't think Sg should buy this thing even though it's quite a cost effective counter to the Astros II. It will escalate the whole thing out of proportion. So let's take the report with a pinch of salt. -
Why not get SS-26 ISKANDER instead. Longer distant. But if SAF is serious to get big bang arty rockets or SSMs, then its better to get either the US MLRS or HIMARS systems with the ATACMS missiles. If US is not willingly to "introduce such weapons", then we can acquire the Russian SMERCH 9K58 MLRS.Originally posted by paulho:hmm... ss-21 scarab successor to the frog. according to news group effective range ony 8-38miles not veri exciting leh? Could be Sg again buy obsolete technology den do own R&D for other purposes? -
The threat posed by the ASTROS II will not depend on the system itself, but rather the TYPE OF ROCKETS used.. . I'm not sure rockets Malaysia uses, and also their quantity. . ., to have MLRS in Singapore, you will need to stockpile rockets which will need quite a bit of maintenance to prevent urself form runnig out of rockets in war, else the alternative is to start building rockets, which is no mean feat to begin with. . .
currently, Singapore has a few times the number of artillery pieces (mainly 155mm) that Malaysia, esp. if Singapore brings out those in storage. . ., not economical to also use MLRS for arty. . . , btw, Singapore manufactures AND stockpiles 155mm shells, so its easier for us to have more big guns than a few rocket launchers
my two cents -
I'm sure if SAF decides on an MLRS system (not necessary the US ones), Singapore would license build the rockets. The surface to surface missiles is another story though.Originally posted by laser51088:The threat posed by the ASTROS II will not depend on the system itself, but rather the TYPE OF ROCKETS used.. . I'm not sure rockets Malaysia uses, and also their quantity. . ., to have MLRS in Singapore, you will need to stockpile rockets which will need quite a bit of maintenance to prevent urself form runnig out of rockets in war, else the alternative is to start building rockets, which is no mean feat to begin with. . .
The differences in the effect of 155mm gun and MLRS are quite major. Soldiers at receiving end would tell you quickly that both are devastating but nothing compares to being under the "steel rain"... submunition dispersed by the MLRS rockets... -
1.... the MLRS system of malaysia if used against singapore... would severely hampered singapores ability to mobilise its forces IF they scattered bomblets across major expressways and perhaps areas around key military installations, camps and AMMO dumps...buying them precious time to rush their elite forces across the causeway and followup units currently being relocated to johor...Originally posted by foxtrout8:With the malaysian newly brought MLRS , a new system was not onli being introduced into the Singapore's surrounding region ( after thailand ) , it also prove to be a real threat to us in war.
To counter this threat , Singapore annouced the aqquirement of the LongBow Apaches .
The question is .....
Firstly ,on ur opinion is the aqquiring of the MLRS a major threat to Singapore.Wat stratigical objective can Malaysia gain , agaisnt us.
Secondly is the Apaches useful on picky out the MLRS in dense enemy's SAM envelope .
Thirdly , y isnt Singapore yet purchasing any MLRS to counter a wake of attack.
And fourthly ,wat are the tactics to prevent a deadly wake of saturated rocket attack during war time.
I will like to know ur opinions , pls do enlighten mi....thX.
2... the MLRS system of malaysia can also be use to target key industrial and financial hubs with the purpose of denying those establiments and factories from providing essential logistical and financial support or war material production... as well as a form of pyschological attack.
3... Singapore didnt buy the apache to hunt down the MLRS as it would be hunting for a needle in a haystack.. and the chances of success is low plus exposing the apache to unneccesary risk... there are far easier and more effective methods to take out MLRS with minimal damage to our forces...
4... singapore do NOT need to purchase MLRS system if SAF so chooses.. the reason being that the SAF already possess a similar but FAR MORE potent system in the form of FH2000+ICM cargo rounds... the advantage of this system... is the ability of SAF to saturate a FAR FAR larger area with bomblets... the disadvantage lies in the limited range of the cargo rounds which currently stands at 30KM... although there is a possibility that the ODE might have come out with a double charge cargo round that can hit further...
5... IF however Singapore was under malaysia's MLRS attack... there are afew things we could do.....
5a... all new housing blocks HDB build has a self contained HS room which could be critical in protecting civilians from such inaccurate bomblet attacks or other form of sharpnel explosive weapons like arty shells and mortar rounds....that might be fired at singapore...
5b... in the event of such an attack... the ARTY units of SAF would respond by firing immensive numbers of cargo ICM rounds into malaysia with the purpose of delaying malaysian forces from moving south... ALTHOUGH it has come to my knowledge that the MAF intends to use their PT91 to 'clear' the roads of bomblets to enable their other forces to continue the push to the south...(guess wat the apache is for now)
5c... SAF would continue to mobilise and perhaps even setup FUA at schools or community centers while RSAF falcons with Hawkeye will try to nail those MLRS with Napalm....
5d... SAF fires millions of bomblet all over southern johor... and RSAF begins bombing runs all over malaysia while the army moves to the FDA....
Now the war begins... and we will soon see... who will burn at the stake....
the moment SAF push 20 KM into malaysia... malaysia MLRS would begin to loose its effectiveness rapidly as the rockets still able to hit singapore would have to be the 4 tube version... which though can still hit singapore... would be limited in both numbers and also rockets per salvo...
Once SAF push 50KM into malaysia... the ASTRO2 can no longer hit singapore....
In fact... any attempts to use the ASTRO2 against singapore using its shorter range rockets would immediately expose the ASTRO2 launcher to triangulation by the SAF AN/TPQ-38 arty radar or the hawkeye and expose the ASTRO2 to immeditate counter battery fire from FH2000 or airstrike from RSAF bombers.....
However... IF all fail... assuming that the ASTRO2 manage to avoid SAF hunt and continue to hit singapore hard... SAF can do a tit for tat and start dropping ICMs all over southern Johor and perhaps use its Airpower to visit horror in KL and other major malaysian cities with ICM bombs, LGBs, Iron bomb, Napalm or even maybe some coloured gas....which would sure as hell scare their shits off even if it is not poison gas -
as for the SS21 scarab... the news has been reported before in janes' defence weekly in 1995(if i remeber correctly) where the ruskies reportedly provided SAF with informations such as technical specs and others for evalutions...
However... eversince then... there has been no news about the 'interest'...
either the americans put a stop to it... OR it might have been called off for other reason...
as far as i know... there is no scarab in singapore...
as to why SAF was interested in scarab... that i dont know... but it sure was not becos of ASTRO2... as their interest in scarab (if true) was reported way before malaysia even have intentions to purchase the ASTRO2...
maybe the scarab was meant for the nukes that the aussies intelligience claim that is in SAF possession and SAF believe that it needs a platform to deliver it??? -
Malaysia G5 arty has operational range of 52km.Originally posted by tripwire:4... singapore do NOT need to purchase MLRS system if SAF so chooses.. the reason being that the SAF already possess a similar but FAR MORE potent system in the form of FH2000+ICM cargo rounds... the advantage of this system... is the ability of SAF to saturate a FAR FAR larger area with bomblets... the disadvantage lies in the limited range of the cargo rounds which currently stands at 30KM... although there is a possibility that the ODE might have come out with a double charge cargo round that can hit further... -
i think they bullshiting.....Originally posted by paulho:Malaysia G5 arty has operational range of 52km.
according to this website
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/data/communiques/archives/2000Nov/data/2000Nov3973/
wat they got are 45cal G5!
according to denel... the maker of G5... the 45cal has a max range of 30km...
VLAP projectile can extend that range by 13.6km to 43.6km at best.....
there is no way malaysia's G5 can hit 52km unless they bought the 52cal G5 arty gun....
furthermore... singapore FH2000 currently has a range of 42km...
according to denel... VLAP projectile can be used on all NATO standard 52cal arty gun.. that would include SAF's FH2000....
so.... in a slug fest.... with both side hammering each other with VLAP projectile ...
FH2000's 53.6km range would easily pummel the malaysian arty's 43.6km range right into the ground....
at worst... IF they do get the 52cal G5... the arty on both side would be evenly match.... -
Then Make it mobileOriginally posted by tripwire:i think they bullshiting.....
according to this website
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/data/communiques/archives/2000Nov/data/2000Nov3973/
wat they got are 45cal G5!
according to denel... the maker of G5... the 45cal has a max range of 30km...
VLAP projectile can extend that range by 13.6km to 43.6km at best.....
there is no way malaysia's G5 can hit 52km unless they bought the 52cal G5 arty gun....
furthermore... singapore FH2000 currently has a range of 42km...
according to denel... VLAP projectile can be used on all NATO standard 52cal arty gun.. that would include SAF's FH2000....
so.... in a slug fest.... with both side hammering each other with VLAP projectile ...
FH2000's 53.6km range would easily pummel the malaysian arty's 43.6km range right into the ground....
at worst... IF they do get the 52cal G5... the arty on both side would be evenly match.... .Kinda fire and run.GUess thats what Self Propelled Artillery are for right!!
We are definitely not gonna be a sitting duck like we onces did in WWII when the Japanese pound singapore without accounting any oppose -
why stop at self-propelled?Originally posted by Orcishwarrior:Then Make it mobile .Kinda fire and run.GUess thats what Self Propelled Artillery are for right!!
We are definitely not gonna be a sitting duck like we onces did in WWII when the Japanese pound singapore without accounting any oppose
why not go all the way for a heli-portable self-propelled system?
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Singapore will eventually equipped with both, as both will be fully developed by ST Engg. What SAF Arty guys need are MLRS systems, with perhaps capability to shoot 100KM+ SRBM.Originally posted by CX:why stop at self-propelled?
why not go all the way for a heli-portable self-propelled system? -
i hesitate to speculate. nothing has been leaked to the press yet.Originally posted by Joe Black:Singapore will eventually equipped with both, as both will be fully developed by ST Engg. What SAF Arty guys need are MLRS systems, with perhaps capability to shoot 100KM+ SRBM. -
FH2000's 53.6km range would easily pummel the malaysian arty's 43.6km range right into the ground....
No worry, take a look here. It should be a very interesting development for SAF to seriously consider buying it. It will out gun any Malaysian Arty or even their Astro. For the Malaysian, it just too bad that they cannot buy the weapon coz it from Israel
at worst... IF they do get the 52cal G5... the arty on both side would be evenly match....[/b]
http://www.defense-update.com/news/6702ermap.htm
Israel Military Industry is developing an extended range, modular, artillery projectile (ERMAP) that will be able to reach distances of up to 80 km without increasing the firing pressures in the barrel. The developers are planning to achieve this effect by deploying aerodynamic surfaces and autonomous guidance, based on Global Satellite Positioning (GPS) inside the projectile. The new ammunition is designed to hit target at such range, with accuracy of 30 CEP, good enough for effective attack by scatterable munitions or smart submunitions. -
in an arty shooting match, Singapore will win by attrition if both sides are evenly matched, Sg has alot more of those 52 cal 155mm guns than M'sia, plus old US models in reserve, btw, what about the chassis of the Paladin Sg bought recently?? if they fit a FH2000 gun on it, it can probably serve as a sort of backliner for the tanks and AFVs needing an arty strike in front, but i'm not sure how the LWSPH and the Paladin chassis arty will complement each other. . . and how do the normal FH2000 move anyway??? tow? by what? they got an auxillary diesel on board issit?
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the FH-2000 and the FH-88 are tow by the 7-ton MAN truck. they do have a self proplusion unit the max speed is i think 4km/h. we are currently working on the SP-Gun on the M109 chasis but have not heard much of the LWSPG by ST