Standard of SAF
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ARE U EVEN LISTENING TO ME!!!!Originally posted by kopiosatu:have u ever learnt how to shoot its tracks
we are not going to use any of our infantry weapons to take out an MBT.
we've got our own to take them out
shooting at its track will only result in a MOBILITY KILL and it can STILL shoot at u and very likely, KILL U!
if we were equipped with a LAW with a tandem warhead, like the SPIKE SR, it would make more sense in today's operational scenario.
why lug around a weapon with such limited application when a more advanced one is sorely needed to counter modern threats?
it is NOT FUN to shoot at a tank's tracks, then have it shoot back at u even though it cannot move! -
so are u sayihg we can go thru war with ZERO deaths???Originally posted by CX:ARE U EVEN LISTENING TO ME!!!!
shooting at its track will only result in a MOBILITY KILL and it can STILL shoot at u and very likely, KILL U!
if we were equipped with a LAW with a tandem warhead, like the SPIKE SR, it would make more sense in today's operational scenario.
why lug around a weapon with such limited application when a more advanced one is sorely needed to counter modern threats?
it is NOT FUN to shoot at a tank's tracks, then have it shoot back at u even though it cannot move!
there are such thing as sacrifices, so what if he shoots back, one man down, we stop its movement, THAT is what the LAW is for! who cares if we lose ONE MAN, he can't aim the ENTIRE SECTION, or the ENTIRE PLATOON, we wait for OUR armour to come kill it. have u even gone thru NS?
do u even have any idea what's the bigger picture?
have u even handled a LAW?
do u know what is the purpose of the LAW?
do u even know what is the purpose of the SAF in SG? -
yes... i can very well see that NS has taught u nothing but fried your brains in the process.Originally posted by kopiosatu:so are u sayihg we can go thru war with ZERO deaths???
there are such thing as sacrifices, so what if he shoots back, one man down, we stop its movement, THAT is what the LAW is for! who cares if we lose ONE MAN, he can't aim the ENTIRE SECTION, or the ENTIRE PLATOON, we wait for OUR armour to come kill it. have u even gone thru NS?
do u even have any idea what's the bigger picture?
have u even handled a LAW?
do u know what is the purpose of the LAW?
do u even know what is the purpose of the SAF in SG?
u talk of men like u talk of toy soldiers. i despise that in a commander. i don't know how or what u were trained as and by which dumbass but i've never forgotten one thing: nobody likes to go out there to die, no matter how noble the cause.
when u bring men out, at least have the decency to try and get them home instead of sending them to their futile deaths.
i see your idea as one that is brave, but really reckless and foolish. u're not fighting an evaluation where u can just happilly leave men behind to sacrifice themselves and have them ressurected at the end of the exercise.
the whole POINT is not to die for your country, but to make the guy on the other side die for his!
of course i do not believe in a no-dead war. but that does not mean that i get reckless with people who trust me and placed their lives in my hands
ok... to be fair... IF an infantry platoon contacts an ABG... the sensible thing to do, in my opinion, is to take out what is within their ability to take out... IFVs, APCs, soft skinned vehicles, and if a SPIKE section is attached, use that to take out the MBTs. that makes sense even if people on your side DO die in the process.
if an infantry section meets an ABG, u wanna be rambo and start shooting at the MBTs' tracks??? it depends on what the mission description is of course, but it takes one stupid PC/OC to send out a patrol to try and take out an ABG without properly equipping the patrol...
still, if u desire so much to die in a blaze of glory, what can i say?
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so u think SG doesn't have MBTs or SPIKEs?Originally posted by CX:yes... i can very well see that NS has taught u nothing but fried your brains in the process.
u talk of men like u talk of toy soldiers. i despise that in a commander. i don't know how or what u were trained as and by which dumbass but i've never forgotten one thing: nobody likes to go out there to die, no matter how noble the cause.
when u bring men out, at least have the decency to try and get them home instead of sending them to their futile deaths.
i see your idea as one that is brave, but really reckless and foolish. u're not fighting an evaluation where u can just happilly leave men behind to sacrifice themselves and have them ressurected at the end of the exercise.
the whole POINT is not to die for your country, but to make the guy on the other side die for his!
of course i do not believe in a no-dead war. but that does not mean that i get reckless with people who trust me and placed their lives in my hands
ok... to be fair... IF an infantry platoon contacts an ABG... the sensible thing to do, in my opinion, is to take out what is within their ability to take out... IFVs, APCs, soft skinned vehicles, and if a SPIKE section is attached, use that to take out the MBTs. that makes sense even if people on your side DO die in the process.
if an infantry section meets an ABG, u wanna be rambo and start shooting at the MBTs' tracks??? it depends on what the mission description is of course, but it takes one stupid PC/OC to send out a patrol to try and take out an ABG without properly equipping the patrol...
still, if u desire so much to die in a blaze of glory, what can i say? -
of course we do!Originally posted by kopiosatu:so u think SG doesn't have MBTs or SPIKEs?
(i even saw the promo video released by Raphael before the weapon was issued and made public info... no harm saying it now since the procurement has already been made public)
well, MBT nobody talks about lah! u know as well as i do what the situation is!
and we are essentially NOT talking about the SPIKE or MBTs, but LAWs!
the LAW was intended to give infantry at the section level SOME anti-armour capabilities and this capability has been rendered slightly obsolete by recent developments up north...
an infantry section out on patrol may not be supported or covered by a SPIKE section. already, there isn't exactly an unlimited number of spikes to spare in a coy so u can't squander your spike teams by sending them all over the place.
so a section-level A.T solution is missing currently. this will have to wait until the SPIKE SR, a short range LAW version of the SPIKE ATGM is ready and purchased by SAF.
until then, i won't get stupid with the live of other people's fathers, brothers and sons. -
One thing's for sure, there's no way I'm gonna run out like rambo or attract attention to myself by trying to zap at an approaching tank's tracks. Have you seen the caliber of the mg and main gun on that thing, that leaves you a very small margin of error. Unless you can get a rear shot or roof shoot, dun bother engaging MBTs with LAWS, it's crazy stuff meant for people who want to get medals which are sent to their relatives.
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The duty of every SAF Soldier is to fight with ANIMAL Courage, Cunning, and the INSTINCT TO SURVIVE to fight again EVERY NEW DAY.
Singapore cannot afford to lose a Single Soldier, and rashness is the last behavior that the SAF need from any SAF Soldier.
Seriously, the manner in which our SAF Soldiers train when in Battle Formation can be quite shocking.
One shell from an MBT, or a 60mm Motar, will wipe out the entire Platoon or a small Section.
I have always been shocked at the manner in which individual man-to-man distances in a Platoon or Section Battle Formation is never observed. When a helmet is thrown into the center of the Formation, and an MPI Radius is drawn with white tapes - to mark the kill height and radii - the entire group of men is wiped out.
Maybe in the SAF Promotion Advertisement on TV, it is alright to get everyone bunched together for the camera field of vision.
However, in every Field Exercise, the bunching up of troops on tactical move has always held my amazement. -
at last! someone with a firm grip on reality!Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:One thing's for sure, there's no way I'm gonna run out like rambo or attract attention to myself by trying to zap at an approaching tank's tracks. Have you seen the caliber of the mg and main gun on that thing, that leaves you a very small margin of error. Unless you can get a rear shot or roof shoot, dun bother engaging MBTs with LAWS, it's crazy stuff meant for people who want to get medals which are sent to their relatives.
not to be mistaken with cowardice really... SAF, you and me will all do our part and our best when called upon to do so but don't expect people to do foolish, crazy things... -
Singapore's Navy is not powerful enough. I think we should build more impressive and powerful ships. Mind U we do not even have a single aircraft carrier. Why is that so? -
Singapore Navy is not that impressive as the other Asian Navies , eg India ( not malaysia ~!!! ) is because the Mindef will rather the Navy to focus on to littoral water protection , rather than force projection seen in carrier groups or blue water defence seen in frigates and destroyers.
A major leap is when Singapore obtain our SIx MCV which pose quite a threat to neighbouring countries due to our impressive ECM and long-range offensive capabilities. However due to the structure of the corvettees , it cannot be under the catagory of blue water defences yet. The next leap is when the Navy obtain the MPA which truely expands our naval SAR and Strike capacity. Then comes the LST and the LALEE which expands the RSN projection and surveillence area.
Good news. WIth the aqquring of the Frigates , it can really show the change in warfare tactics from littoral defenses to blue-water defenses and force projections. Thus jus sit back , i believe the RSN will be ready to take in larger amphibious craft however for carriers it may be a longer destination...... -
The Endurance Class LST (actually they are LSD) can easily carry Sea Harriers or Assault Helicopters of the LongBow Apache AH-64 type; and then you will have quite an impressive mini-Carrier.
See the sgForums-Military "Amphibious Assault Ships" for more details. -
2 harrier on the LST can do nth constructive. The deck of the LST is specially design for troop/cargo carrying helicopters. But wif the hangar , i believe we can accomidate 4 apaches however yet scarificing away spaces for important troop/transport heli.
I rather have frigate armed with harpoon block 2....and A-4s doing CAPs for the amphibous group. -
Newbie infanrty mistake, when under artty bombardment, they bunch up together rather then spread out, becos instinct tells people to bunch up together when in trouble.
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I strongly agree with this view. SAF emphasis on THINKING SOLDIER... not garang, but reckless type. Yes...using a LAW, you may be successful in disabling the tank from moving, *IF* you manage to take out the tracks. But the tank will most likely kill you, then radio for a track replacement. You only slow them down slightly....yet lives of many with you will be lost. What has you achieved?...Nothing!Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:One thing's for sure, there's no way I'm gonna run out like rambo or attract attention to myself by trying to zap at an approaching tank's tracks. Have you seen the caliber of the mg and main gun on that thing, that leaves you a very small margin of error. Unless you can get a rear shot or roof shoot, dun bother engaging MBTs with LAWS, it's crazy stuff meant for people who want to get medals which are sent to their relatives.
The smarter move is to either avoid contact, and report their movements ...and await reinforcements.....or radio their postion, hit at what you can take out successfully, and withdraw. Remember...tanks do not operate alone. What you encounter, may only be the tip of the iceberg...wiser to inform the HQ, and bring in the heavy weapons....Bottom line...Think smart!...Live to fight another day, will creating maximum damage to the enemy. We are not China, and can't afford to use the "ren hai zhan su". But for those who still insist be a "rambo"....be my guest, but make sure you blow up the tank with you when you die! -
we dun need it wat...Originally posted by ngsl86: Singapore's Navy is not powerful enough. I think we should build more impressive and powerful ships. Mind U we do not even have a single aircraft carrier. Why is that so? -
Originally posted by TVaddict:we dun need it wat... Well, carriers play a decisive role in the defence of the sea. Without them, our chances of victory in our own coastal waters might even be a problem.
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Carriers are for airpower projection. If you are talking abt defending our coastal waters....it's not needed. The range of our land based fighters are sufficient to cover that...and way beyond.Originally posted by ngsl86: Well, carriers play a decisive role in the defence of the sea. Without them, our chances of victory in our own coastal waters might even be a problem. Also you need a fleet of ships to protect & support the carrier. It is very expensive to operate, and extreme manpower intensive. Being able to afford to operate one, does not mean we get one. SAF operations currently do not have the need for an carrier. Also...it is politically sensitive too. -
plus our international boundary is too small for us to get a aircraft carrier.... further more our malaysian counterpart would make alot of comments liao....
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There are advantages of owning a carrier.
1) it helps in force projection.
2) it immuned the risk of all vital base to be destroyed in an enemy offensive attack.
3) roles in humanitarian mission.
4) roles in forward supply depot.
however we must understand singapore's constraints and the disadvantage of owning a carrier.
1) a carrier is on big piece of metal which needs alot of pple to run.Not onli u need pple to run the carrier , u need pple to run the other ships which make a carrier fleet.
2) it expensive to keep a carrier operational. It will burn alot of tax payers money , then tax have to go up liao.....
even if singapore have the capacity to turn the ship automated , and have the money to run the fleet , then another problem is...
3) it will cause a arm race in the region!!!
I believe a LPD is enough for singapore's force projection ambition , however obtaining a carrier isnt impossible but quite a long way for us...... -
Originally posted by foxtrout8:
which is a politically sensitive point for a small country like Sg... besides... where do u wanna project to?
There are advantages of owning a carrier.
1) it helps in force projection.
we don't exactly have vital interests far from our shores. we only need to protect our SLOC and a blue water navy (which is already being developed) will suffice.
2) it immuned the risk of all vital base to be destroyed in an enemy offensive attack.
not unless u get a nimitz class... and they're HUGE and expensive a small one like the one thailand has won't help much to transport land based aircraft. and it can't carry a lot of VTOLs on its deck.
yeah i agree with u... our LSTs are sufficient for our purposes for now and the near future... -
if we r toking abt defending our sea lines, den we definitely dun need any aircraft carriers coz our sea lines aren't exactly big and our fighter planes can easily reached those places from our own airbases. furthermore an aircraft carrier will give a lot of constraint to the navy and our defence budget will hv to increase considerably...
as for transportation purposes, we hv more than enuff LST... -
im sori dude..but go kill urself pls..Originally posted by kopiosatu:so are u sayihg we can go thru war with ZERO deaths???
there are such thing as sacrifices, so what if he shoots back, one man down, we stop its movement, THAT is what the LAW is for! who cares if we lose ONE MAN, he can't aim the ENTIRE SECTION, or the ENTIRE PLATOON, we wait for OUR armour to come kill it. have u even gone thru NS?
do u even have any idea what's the bigger picture?
have u even handled a LAW?
do u know what is the purpose of the LAW?
do u even know what is the purpose of the SAF in SG?
hope ur not an officer...if ur one...im sure ur the 1st to die..not by the hand of ur enemy..but ur own Men.. -
aiya... he optimist lah... just hope he's not an idiot orcifer like one i worked with last time...Originally posted by NathanG5:im sori dude..but go kill urself pls..
hope ur not an officer...if ur one...im sure ur the 1st to die..not by the hand of ur enemy..but ur own Men..
reckless like hell... happy happy only send people out to "die" for no good reason... cuckoo planning one... and he calls it the "big picture" too
lucky the specs got brain ah... its not a bad thing to keep the "big picture" in mind, but then again, cannot let it blind u and delude u lah...
ultimately, the point is to complete the mission at the lowest cost possible, not to play hero and complete the mission, but everyone die... -
There is a danger too if the big picture is not kept in perspective, and with some sacrifice to achieve it.
On most military plans, sub-units are expected to be in specific critical positions, at a critical time, to support the movement of Higher Echelon; if sub-units cannot achieve the mission of their unit as required, it may lead to a larger number of casualties all round.
"Team Spirit" (or "Watching Each Other's Back" ) should not be confined to one's immediate Sub-Unit alone, but should also cover the extended units too.
The survival of the Sub-Unit in deep mission will also depend on the support that is provided by other units from the Higher Echelons too.
While rashness and mindless heroism is definitely discouraged, one has to measure the mission at hand, the dangers involved, and use one's animal instinct and cunning to handle the demands imposed. -
oh lay off that already! so tiring hearing u say the same crap over and over again...Originally posted by Atobe:While rashness and mindless heroism is definitely discouraged, one has to measure the mission at hand, the dangers involved, and use one's animal instinct and cunning to handle the demands imposed.
yeah yeah... animal *growl* it gets a bit old and ridiculous when u keep repeating it...
i guess what everyone basically has to say about this is that we'll fight, and fight hard, but deep down, in the hearts of every citizen soldier, all they wanna do is finish the fight and go home to their families and THAT is not too much to ask for.
big pictures are painted by those not in the battlefield. all the soldier needs to do when in the field is not to look at the big picture, or the small picture, but to simply get the freaking job done so that those people pinning flags in the sand models can get on with their planning. a soldier needs focus, not perfect information.
too much unnecessary info can actually kill u...