Air-bursting grenade in rifle,SSW & GL--What did SG achieve?
-
I think weapons should just have those normal basic functions okay liao.
Imagine you are selecting over 25 different CPU modes.. then u shoot half way got one voice say..
"Pls reconsider this option, because it is not suitable for your environment"
Will you be pissed?
and also, what if all those advance gadget spoils how leh. no more 25 profile to use. Just a SAR 21 / m4 / ak with a nade launcher and maybe a 3x zoom enough liao la.
think must be handphone meh.. got general, silent, outdoors profile ? lol
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Originally posted by Cpt.ZR:
I think weapons should just have those normal basic functions okay liao.
Imagine you are selecting over 25 different CPU modes.. then u shoot half way got one voice say..
"Pls reconsider this option, because it is not suitable for your environment"
Will you be pissed?
and also, what if all those advance gadget spoils how leh. no more 25 profile to use. Just a SAR 21 / m4 / ak with a nade launcher and maybe a 3x zoom enough liao la.
think must be handphone meh.. got general, silent, outdoors profile ? lol
I agree, only 2 mode is needed. Air burst or non-airburst. =D
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Sg Ty,u are right on....But not so right on FN 2000 ABS grenade
Hi Sg Ty,u are right M 777 is heli--transportable .Also,u are right that it is better
to hold SAR 21 againt the chest,than holding the sight while on running.
Can i talk to u about how to distinguish info on net?
Though posting on forums is just passing time,among other purposes,
i think we need to be serious most of the times.u say many info about
FN 2000 since 2001,including the ABS grenade.
u think ABS GL on FN 2000 has been workable for sometimes.
But i think the FN 2000 ABS GL,as at early 20008,
is workable UP TO 200 meter.
In fact,i am not sure if its ABS GL is workable!!
My doubts are supported by few reasons.
1.Jane's Infantry Weapons
In JIW 2004/05 Edition,Jane's decribed FN Herstal 2000 Modular
Assualt Weapon as follow:
Fire control sys requirement passed to NOPTEL
of Finland for development...
The production version with grenade FCS was due to be ready within
a further 2 years.....In 2005/06 Edition,JIW repeated the same sentence;
F 2000 development fully completed;production preparations was finalised in 2001.The production version with grenade FCS was due to be ready within
a further 2 years.In2006/07 and 2007/08 Editions,the above sentence
The production version with grenade FCS was due to be ready within a further 2 years.
has been removed.
So,u can see from 2001 to 2004/05,probably up
to 2006/2007 ,all the info on net about FN ABS
was not true.
Some times,when u read the stuff on net,either from Official and
unofficial web site,i cant be sure they are describe the facts or just
the intended results.
-
2.DoD doc dated Feb 2008 showed budget
to extend the effective range of EGLM from 200 to 600m
My initial conclusion is currently ,the range is up to 200m!!
1.In a Feb 2008 US DOD document,it said:
Outcome: The purpose of this project is to extend the effective range of the MK47 Enhanced Grenade Launcher Module (EGLM), which is affixed to the Special Operations Forces (SOF) Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR), from 200 to 600 meters. This project integrates the fire control and ammunition programming technology that is necessary to fire a medium velocity 40mm programmable round from the SCAR, in an effort to counter the current rocket propelled grenade threat.
http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2009/OSD/0605130D8Z.pdf
@@@@@@@@
What is the current status of FN 2000 and SCAR ABS GL?
-
lionnoisy : when are u ever going to learn that no weapons procurement is perfect ?
there are always tradeoffs/exchanges/pros and cons
-
Originally posted by sgstars:
lionnoisy : when are u ever going to learn that no weapons procurement is perfect ?
there are always tradeoffs/exchanges/pros and consAgree.
1.Facts or intended performances------do the info of weapons and ammo in internet decribing the current status or just the propsed performances?
.I am grateful to u that u dunt post too much.
This is not related to weapons procurement.Did i critize the procurement procedures
so far?I may do so later.The problem is so many misunderstanding and confusions
about the status of wepaons and ammo.
For example,a learned expert like Sg Ty also buy the info on internet
about FN 2000 ABS GL.Janes said it was still under development
in 2004/05!
Take Striker MK 47 Advanced Lightweight Grenade Launcher with ABS as another
example of misunderstanding or misinformed.
The FUE,First UNit Equipped,was scheduled in 4Q 2007.
So,u may have seen the Striker info on the net for a no. of years.
But Yankees was still not using it.
Read my opening post again:
another proof is in Feb 2005,the ABS grenade was still under testing.
http://www.defenselink.mil/comptroller/defbudget/fy2006/budget_justification/pdfs/03_RDT_and_E/OSD_BA_(All)/OSD_BA6.pdf
40mm High Explosive Dual Purpose (HEDP)
Marine Corps (jointw/USSOCOM)
ImprovementThis project is integrating and evaluating an improved propulsion propellant "after armor" effect technology and a standardized fuze
interface into a 40mm HEDP cartridge for use in both the MK19 Grenade Machine Gun and MK 47 Advanced Lightweight Grenade
Launcher. NAMMO of Norway developed the warhead and standardized fuze interface, Nico-Pyrotechnik of Germany developed the
propulsion system, and Nitrochemie AG of Switzerland developed the propellant for the cartridge to be evaluated.@@@@@@@@@
I am suprised that if FN can make a under barrel ABS GL and ABS ammo,
FN does not make a big announcement.
Pl note that u need a GL with Fire Control sys(ie including range finder,etc)
and a ABS 40 mm ammo!!
Who can make a ABS 40 mm (or whatever size) ammo?
mmm
......
-
Originally posted by lionnoisy:
Agree.
1.Facts or intended performances------do the info of weapons and ammo in internet decribing the current status or just the propsed performances?
.I am grateful to u that u dunt post too much.
This is not related to weapons procurement.Did i critize the procurement procedures
so far?I may do so later.The problem is so many misunderstanding and confusions
about the status of wepaons and ammo.
For example,a learned expert like Sg Ty also buy the info on internet
about FN 2000 ABS GL.Janes said it was still under development
in 2004/05!
Take Striker MK 47 Advanced Lightweight Grenade Launcher with ABS as another
example of misunderstanding or misinformed.
The FUE,First UNit Equipped,was scheduled in 4Q 2007.
So,u may have seen the Striker info on the net for a no. of years.
But Yankees was still not using it.
Read my opening post again:
another proof is in Feb 2005,the ABS grenade was still under testing.
http://www.defenselink.mil/comptroller/defbudget/fy2006/budget_justification/pdfs/03_RDT_and_E/OSD_BA_(All)/OSD_BA6.pdf
@@@@@@@@@
I am suprised that if FN can make a under barrel ABS GL and ABS ammo,
FN does not make a big announcement.
Pl note that u need a GL with Fire Control sys(ie including range finder,etc)
and a ABS 40 mm ammo!!
Who can make a ABS 40 mm (or whatever size) ammo?
mmm
......
no need to be grateful.
big deal. have you ever shot an M16 before ? if you do, then you'd be able to distinguish the difference between hyperbole and performance.
if you want to be objective, fine, lets do it objectively.
1) what criteria are you using to evaluate?
2) what criteria are the evaluating sources using ?
3) what is the position./data trying to tell us ?
4) is there a bias ?
5) is this reliable information ?
please note, in WWII, Vietnam and in Iraq, procurement cycles have been shortened and accelerated to ensure what is needed in the field, be it better weapons or better armour, reaches the Joe grunt in the field.
take a look at the MRAP. they need, they get in a matter of months.same thing here with the MK47
in wartime, what you need, you get ASAP. so you get the situation where mk47 may not be phased into full Service OFFICIALLY. but troops in iraq get access to it and can use it for operations.
this is not even a dichotomy to think about. its Just plain simple double thought conjectures. I.e you can understand that there's a official procurement track and issue exercise and simulteneously, because of its usefulness, certain units in Iraq have access to it. its not even something complicated to contemplate about.
same thing here like Blue force tracker 2. its been pushed into service in Iraq earlier for the benefit of US troops there even though its not planned to be phased in yet.
i dont see how the MK47 being used in Iraq can be linked to how the FN2000 ABS is in service with several nations.
big deal about ammo production capacity. so what if STK is the largest maker of 40mm ammo in the world ? its one of the poorest margin sectors. You dont make much money off that.
its like saying, oh , i make spark plugs, so my country best. my country is an automotive giant. absurd and ridiculous.
-
Originally posted by sgstars:
no need to be grateful.
big deal. have you ever shot an M16 before ? if you do, then you'd be able to distinguish the difference between hyperbole and performance.
if you want to be objective, fine, lets do it objectively.
1) what criteria are you using to evaluate?
2) what criteria are the evaluating sources using ?
3) what is the position./data trying to tell us ?
4) is there a bias ?
5) is this reliable information ?
please note, in WWII, Vietnam and in Iraq, procurement cycles have been shortened and accelerated to ensure what is needed in the field, be it better weapons or better armour, reaches the Joe grunt in the field.
take a look at the MRAP. they need, they get in a matter of months.same thing here with the MK47
in wartime, what you need, you get ASAP. so you get the situation where mk47 may not be phased into full Service OFFICIALLY. but troops in iraq get access to it and can use it for operations.
this is not even a dichotomy to think about. its Just plain simple double thought conjectures. I.e you can understand that there's a official procurement track and issue exercise and simulteneously, because of its usefulness, certain units in Iraq have access to it. its not even something complicated to contemplate about.
same thing here like Blue force tracker 2. its been pushed into service in Iraq earlier for the benefit of US troops there even though its not planned to be phased in yet.
i dont see how the MK47 being used in Iraq can be linked to how the FN2000 ABS is in service with several nations.
big deal about ammo production capacity. so what if STK is the largest maker of 40mm ammo in the world ? its one of the poorest margin sectors. You dont make much money off that.
its like saying, oh , i make spark plugs, so my country best. my country is an automotive giant. absurd and ridiculous.
My main point in this thread are:
1.Dunt trust all info on the net,like FN 2000 ABS and Strikers may not in productions and services,though widely reported on the net.I alreday shows u
here that Janes in 2004/05 JIW confirmed that FN 2000 FCS was still under developments.FN 2000 was unveiled in 2001.
2.Pl tell me which countries are using the FN 2000 under barrel ABS GL?
Why did FN not announce the success of such on net?
SCAR is based on FN 2000.Right?
Yankees NOW is still testing the Enhanced GL Moudule and ammo!!
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/d20071213Maka.pdf
FY 2008: Comparative Testing Office New Projects *
Defense Acquisition Challenge (DAC) and Foreign Comparative Testing (FCT) ProgramsUS Special Operations Command (SOCOM)
FCT :
Fire Control System for Special Operations
Forces (SOF) Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR)
Grenade Launcher—Belgium, Germany,
Norway, and Sweden
Programmable High-Explosive Dual-Purpose
(P-HEDP) Ammunition—NorwayForeign Comparative Testing (FCT) Program
Fire-Control System for Special Operations Forces (SOF) Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR)
Grenade Launcher—Belgium, Germany, Norway, and Sweden
Tests fire-control and ammunition programming systems for the Enhanced Grenade Launcher Module affixed to the SCAR. Improves the effective range of the grenade launcher from 200 to 600 meters, effectively suppressing rocket-propelled grenade hostile fire and other threats.
Programmable High-Explosive Dual-Purpose (P-HEDP) Ammunition—Norway
Tests a 40mm high-explosive dual-purpose round for the Advance Lightweight Grenade Launcher MK47 Weapon System, delivering air burst and armor penetration capability in one round for Special Operations Forces.2.Striker Mk 47
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2006smallarms/lambrecht.pdf
In May 2006,it was still under testing.Was it under testing in Iraq?
In this doc,the ammo had been estimated to start serial productions
in Fall 2004!!
<!--.sld {left:0px !important; width:6.0in !important; height:4.5in !important; font-size:103% !important;} -->
MK285 Mod0 PPHE/SD Programmable Prefragmented High Explosive Ammunition by Mr. Jarl Eirik StraumeMain customers
US SOCOMFuture Nordic ALGL Program•US SOCOM Qualification Program ongoing•Serial production starts fall of –04•Low/Medium Velocity Applications•The Nammo PP-HE round is especially designed to take out targets in defilade!http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004arms/2004arms.html
nnnnn
-
here is a forum of sharing updated and reliable info--
2007 US Joint Services Small Arms Systems Annual Symposium, Exhibition
2003 Joint Services Small Arms Section Annual Symposium
-http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004arms/2004arms.html
-
2008 US Joint Serives Small Arms Systems Symposium, Exhibition & Firing Demonstration
International Infantry & Joint Services Small Arms Systems Symposium, Exhibition & Firing Demonstration
"Enhancing Small Arms Effectiveness in Current and Future Operations”
19 - 22 May 2008
Dallas, TXTuesday, 20 May 2008
Session I: Joint Services Small Arms Synchronization Team (JSSAST)
Chair: COL Karl Scott Flynn, USA, Chairman, JSSAST
· COL Robert Radcliffe, USA
· CAPT Pat Sullivan, USN
· COL Charles Beck, USAF
· Lt Col Tracy Tafolla, USMC
· CAPT Scott Genovese, USN
· Mr. Kevin Swenson, Joint Non-Lethal Weapons Directorate (JNLWD)
Small Arms Section Awards Presentation
Chinn Award
Recipient: Mr. Troy Smith
Hiram Maxim and His Machinegun: A Great Force Harnessed to a Useful Purpose
· Dr. Stephen Small, JSSAP, U.S. Army, ARDEC
PM Soldier Weapons
· Mr. Richard Audette, Deputy, PM Soldier Weapons
· LTC Timothy Chyma, USA, PM Individual Weapons
· LTC Michael Ascura, USA, PM Crew Served Weapons
Session II: Small Arms Ammunition and Technology
Lethal Limited Range Harbor Security Ammunition
· Mr. Stephen McFarlane, U.S. Army, ARDEC
Effects of Small Caliber Ammunition through Intermediate Barriers
· Mr. Jeremy Lucid, U.S. Army, ARDEC
After Barrier Effectiveness of Small Caliber Ammunition
· Mr. Mark Minisi, U.S. Army, ARDEC
.50 Caliber Short Range Training Ammunition
· Mr. John MacDougall, General Dynamics OTS, Canada
Session III: Advancements in 40mm Munitions (Low and High Velocity);Presentations by 40mm Technology Insertion Team
Chair: Mr. David Broden, Broden Resource Solutions, LLC
M385A1 Composite Projectile Feasibility Study
Wednesday, 21 May 2008
Keynote Address
· Col Robert Mattes, USAF, CTO Director, DUSD, AS&C
Session IV: JSSAP
Lightweight Small Arms Technologies Update
· Ms. Kori Spiegel, U.S. Army, ARDEC
The Ultimate Caliber: Myth or Reality?
· Mr. Shawn Spickert-Fulton, U.S. Army, ARDEC
Infantry Studies and Simulations
· Mr. Alexander Lee, U.S. Army, ARDEC
Joint Service Small Arms Program Applied Research Initiatives
· Mr. John Edwards, U.S. Army, ARDEC
JSSAP’s Future Small Arms Technology Plan: The Fusion of Science and Science Fiction
· Mr. Joel Goldman, Chief, JSSAP, U.S. Army, ARDEC
Session V: NATO
NATO Research and Technology Organization Update
· Mr. Mark Richter, U.S. Marine Corps Systems Command, Quantico
NATO Infantry Weapons Standardization
· Mr. Per Arvidsson, FMV, Sweden
Session VI: Time for a Change – U.S. “Incremental” Small Arms Fielding: Failures and Solutions
· Mr. Jim Schatz, Jr., Time for a Change Team
· Dr. Gary Roberts, DDS
Session VII: Industry Ammunition Producers and Technology Companies
Chair: Mr. David, Broden, Broden Resource Solutions, LLC
· Mr. Steve Torma, General Dynamics OTS
· Mr. Dave Council, Olin
· Mr. Sy Wiley, Polytech
Thursday, 22 May 2008
Keynote Address
· Mr. Chris Grassano, Project Manager, Maneuver Ammunition Systems
National Small Arms Center Update
· Mr. Frank Puzycki, U.S. Army, ARDEC
Session IX: Testing, Training and Simulation
Technical Evaluation, Operational Evaluation, Lessons Learned in Small Arms Procurement
· Mr. Joseph Abram, NAVSEA, Crane
Suppressing Sacred Cows
· Mr. Graham Evenden, System Design Evaluation, Ltd.
NDIA Strategic Initiatives
· Mr. David Broden, Chairman, Armaments Division; Broden Resource Solutions, LLC
Session X: Less Lethal Systems and Technology
· Session Overview, JNLWD
· Human Effects and Effectiveness, HECOE
· Mission Payload Module, NL Weapon System, MCSC
· Improved Flash Bang Grenade, SOCOM
· Beretta/Defense Technologies
Session XI: Weapons
Canadian Proposed Small Arms Demonstration Project
· Mr. Gilles Pageau, Directorate Soldier System Program Management 10-4
Advanced Thermal Management of Automatic Rifles
· Ms. Laurie Florio, U.S. Army, ARDEC
Implementation of the New Israeli Light Machine Gun (LMG),“The NEGEV,” as a Fire Power Multiplier
in the Current and Future Battlefields: Assessments & Conclusions
· Lt Col Michael Hartman, IDF Israel, North East Technologies, Ltd.
Experimental Performance Analysis on Recoil Pad for Reducing Firing Shock Force
· Dr. Joon-Ho Lee, Agency for Defense Development, Korea
Development of a Non-Lethal 12ga. Shotgun System for Use with the EM113REV
· Mr. Kevin Adams, U.S. Army, ARDEC ATF
Session XII: Fire Control
Fire Control Units for Thermal Weapon Sights
· Mr. Alexander Kuhrt, Helmut Schmidt University, Germany
Aimpoint BR8: A Fire Control System for Small Arms
· Mr. Lennart Ljungfelt, Aimpoint, Inc.
Real Time Fire Control Solution for Individual and Crew-Served Direct Firing Infantry Weapons:
Algorithm and Implementation
· Mr. Alexander Kuhrt, Helmut Schmidt University, Germany
-
Re Mk 47,some info to share but pl vertify.
This may be a sales pitch:(some conflict of interest?)
+=good
-=bad
Mk47 with LVS
+ Can do everything anytime
-Expensive, poor batterylife
-Requires a lot of training
-Heavy@@@@@@@
Mk47 with IS 2000
+ Easy to use
+/-Small for CS,Bigfor HH
-Moving parts
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Ljungfelt.pdf
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/2008Intl.html
Aimpoint BR8: A Fire Control System for Small Arms
· Mr. Lennart Ljungfelt, Aimpoint, Inc.
,,,,,nnn
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lionnoisy
volume not = quality.
didnt u learn that in school or something ? i ran through each and every one of your links and none of them go in any length to support your theory that MK47 is not in use. posting alot of junk is not going to help.
plus, if the US posted everything of signficiance about their forces on PDFs. that are loose and freely accessible, the chinese and russians wouldnt bother to spend time, effort and money on Epsionage.
honestly, i dont know is it naivety on your part or are you trying to be funny, mocking our collective intelligence by posting stuff which you know people will poke big holes in.
stop being ridiculous.
and big furry deal again :
SCAR ELGM under trial and testing dosent mean its not in service .you want me to take SG TY's pictures and repeat them here again so you'd stop your nonsense ?
going by your book, Fokker50 is not in service with Israel and the US. does that mean its a bad buy ? it suits our needs.
Leopard 2 not in US service, so its a useless tank ? might as well recall the SM1s back to active duty eh ?
anyway your information was wrong. and if you read closely between the lines, there are hints the SCAR-ELGM has been deployed where SOCOM users are.
http://www.accucounter.com/Leading%20Edge%20SCAR%20article.pdf
The SCAR uses an integrated, modular platform for two “family” members—SCAR Light (5.56 x 45 mm) and SCAR Heavy (7.62 x 51 mm). These rifles are ergonomicallythe same and share 80 percent of their parts. This will mean less training, less logisticalsupport, lower costs, and higher effectiveness for SOF. Both rifle designs can use modular barrels of various lengths to adapt to SOF Operator needs across their respective range
Future design and ammunition enhancements will be more easily incorporatedinto the SCAR platform due to its modularity.The SOF Weapons Program Management Office (PMO) at Crane Division, Naval Surface Warfare Center (NSWC Crane) currently manages this program across its entirelife cycle and is planning to team with the SOF Support Activity to sustain the program.Since contract award, the PMO has worked closely with SOF Operators to maximize theSCAR system’s potential; there have been six Joint Design Reviews and three User Assessments.The program is now in the Low-Rate Initial Production phase, with deliveriesdue to NSWC Crane on 25 February 2007 and Initial Operational Test and Evaluation to follow. The program will continue to tap operator feedback by fielding weapons to USSOCOM units during the summer of 2007.how ? anything left to say ? your timeline and dates are also inaccurate. remembered reading that SCAR ELGM was procured in 2004
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/eglm.htm
The EGLM was originally synopsized by USSOCOM on January 6, 2004 under RFP number H92222-04-R-0013. This current synopsis/solicitation number replaces previous Commercial Area Announcements N00164-04-R-4801 and N00164-03-R-0063 utilized for market research purposes. The program will use full and open competition to fulfill the joint USSOCOM EGLM requirement. The EGLM will be a one for one replacement to the M203 Grenade Launcher with Leaf Sight and AN/PSQ-18A Grenade Launcher Sight. The EGLM is a single shot, 40mm grenade launcher module that can be attached to a MIL-STD-1913 dimensioning rail interface on host weapons and can be adaptable to a yet undetermined interface system that may possibly replace the MIL-STD-1913 rail at the 6 o?clock position on the host weapon.
The EGLM shall consist of two primary components, the weapon module and fire control module. It will also have a major accessory, an ancillary butt-stock assembly. The EGLM mounting system will accommodate most current and future Special Operations Peculiar Modification (SOPMOD) accessories that support the host weapon mission. The EGLM also detaches from the host weapon to attach to an EGLM butt-stock assembly to accommodate stand-alone firing.
The EGLM shall provide the Special Operator with improved combat lethality and other capabilities, when compared to the current M79 and the M203 with Leaf Sight and AN/PSQ-18A Grenade Launcher Sight. The EGLM program has four sequential increments. This synopsis is for Increment 1 with the possibility of reaching Increment II. The Increment I weapon fire control modules shall be inherently upgradeable to incorporate technology advances to satisfy requirements for Increment 2 (programmable munitions capability). The EGLM fires standard 40mm x 46mm munitions along with special Low Velocity (LV) munitions.
Further, the EGLM shall operate in compliance with specifications to be published, to include, but not limited to: Accuracy: The EGLM system shall have a Probability of hit of at least .25 greater than an M203 with an AN/PSQ-18A. A hit is defined as a projectile landing within 5 meters of a designated point target. Target Engagement: The EGLM system shall allow operators to fire projectiles capable of engaging infantry squad targets at unknown ranges between 25 and at least 300 meters. A successful engagement is defined as a projectile landing within 5 meters of a designated point target. The EGLM system shall allow operators to fire projectiles capable of engaging stationary vehicle/bunker targets at unknown ranges to at least 300 meters. A successful engagement is defined as a projectile landing within 5 meters of a designated target. Ranging Capabilities: Provide for a method of target ranging that allows operators to determine range out to 600 meters, with error not to exceed +/- 5m, during day, night, and limited visibility.
-
and we all know that in the selection competition the SCAR ELGM variant beat its competitors big time.
i give u pan chan. i cant be bothered to get the exact statistics to show here. but you are welcome to try and prove me wrong with the statistics
-
jjj
Is it SAR 21 40mm Low Velocity ABM with GL?
This is the latest ST financial report released on 12 August 2008.
It mentioned 40 LV ABS ammo and comes with a photo.
I have not seen the sight on this photo.
Compare the photo on JDW report.
http://www.sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/321267
Is it the real sys?
http://www.stengg.com/investorelations/pdf/2qtr08fyppt.pdf
compare previous models of SAR 21.
http://www.sgforums.com/topics/search?q=SAR+21&commit=Go&type=topics
SAR 21 new versions-official data
mmmm
-
It looks very likely that the FCS is there!!
40mm Payload Solution short.wmv
http://www.stengg.com/CoyCapPro/detail.aspx?pdid=279
This video clip shows this optical sight
object and descibed as Fire Control System.
mmmm
ss
-
can all my learned frens here tell me why Striker
Mk.47 mod.0 Advanced Lightweight Grenade Launcher (ALGL)
is calssified under country International,not USA?
pl also note the ammo was qualified aka approved in 2006!!
Nammo developed a prefragmented, pre-programmable high-explosive air--burst munition (ABM), since designated the Mk 285 Mod 0 by the US Department of Defense. These rounds can be programmed for point detonation or to explode above or beside a target such as infantry in trenches, on rooftops, in buildings or around corners. A prefragmented sleeve surrounds a 40-gram HE payload and 1450 steel balls. These are sprayed in a pattern five metres to the left, rear and right of the detonation point. The round also incorporates an electronic self-destruct function.
The objective 40-mm Airburst Family comprises the Mk 285 round (which was qualified in 2006), an improved M430 HEDP round and a Programmable Training Round that provides a visible airburst signature. In September 2006 the US Naval Surface Warfare Center Crane Division awarded Nammo an $ 8.45 million contract for 39,776 Mk 285 rounds to be delivered by November 2007.Automatic grenade launchers: new automatic 40 mm grenade launchers ...
lll
-
dont try to run away or side-track here.
still dont want to admit about the SOCOM ELGM ? Or that u think FN2000 ELGM and SOCOM ELGM are interchangeable terms ? (technically they are somewhat similar but are different weapons platform altogether)
or how about STK : sole producer of world's only AB 40mm grenade system ?
how ? loss for words ? or self-mute ?
i cant imagine why you'd make a big fuss about general dynamics labelling it "international". whats your point ? its not used by US ?
big deal. an example here : i drive a subaru STI. the STI means subaru technica International. does that mean the car is avaliable all across the world ?
does that mean its a global car ? is it used or allowed in all countries , right or left hand drive? does that mean i am an international world class driver ?
your line of logic says if i drive an STI, i am michael schumacher.
so if you put your nick as lionnoisy_international it means you posess global reach / cumulative global intelligence now right ?absolute bullshit.
Janes is catgeorizing it in the International category as it fits into the category of internationally avaliable weapons.nothing against its export.
postings on several forums indicate that Israel has bought and is evaluating several Mk-47s. in that sense, its an international weapon ? must everything have a nice little badge/label/sticker to say its international ?
big deal really. i dont see your point. its quite absurd really.
-
Originally posted by sgstars:
lionnoisy
volume not = quality.
didnt u learn that in school or something ? i ran through each and every one of your links and none of them go in any length to support your theory that MK47 is not in use. posting alot of junk is not going to help.
plus, if the US posted everything of signficiance about their forces on PDFs. that are loose and freely accessible, the chinese and russians wouldnt bother to spend time, effort and money on Epsionage.
honestly, i dont know is it naivety on your part or are you trying to be funny, mocking our collective intelligence by posting stuff which you know people will poke big holes in.
stop being ridiculous.
and big furry deal again :
SCAR ELGM under trial and testing dosent mean its not in service .you want me to take SG TY's pictures and repeat them here again so you'd stop your nonsense ?
going by your book, Fokker50 is not in service with Israel and the US. does that mean its a bad buy ? it suits our needs.
Leopard 2 not in US service, so its a useless tank ? might as well recall the SM1s back to active duty eh ?
anyway your information was wrong. and if you read closely between the lines, there are hints the SCAR-ELGM has been deployed where SOCOM users are.
http://www.accucounter.com/Leading%20Edge%20SCAR%20article.pdf
how ? anything left to say ? your timeline and dates are also inaccurate. remembered reading that SCAR ELGM was procured in 2004
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/eglm.htm
no need to be so angry.
I just ask what is the proof of the status of FN 2000 ABS GL.
u can see from my image of 2004/2005 Janes Infantry Weapons
posted below.It said that FCS of FN 2000 then was still under
development and may take two more years.
Proof is here.Further,SCAR is the adapted version of
FN 2000.What is the status?
My aim is urge u guys dunt trust anythings on net,including PAP,STK etc.
Use your brains--double check ,cross checks,etc
Ask yourself if the decriptions is the current status or future status!!
Jane's always put STATUS in each item is damn correct .
@@@@@@@@
Again,what is the proof of the status of SCAR?
@@@@@@@@@
read the small FCS here made for FMV--Sweden .
Aimpoint BR8: A Fire Control System for Small Arms
· Mr. Lennart Ljungfelt, Aimpoint, Inc.
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i m not angry. until now.
the problem lies with you see ? you keep insulting our intelligence, making a mickey out of all of us when u keep bashing the same ideas here.
i cant believe im arguing with you over the positioning of one word. this is absurd and ridiculous.if its semantics and the word actually influences interpretation and context, maybe ild be more reasonable here and actually try to rebutt you logically.
but it isnt. so if SBS is now not a bus company since it has transit behind right ? it must be a transit company. this is what your line of logic is telling me.
dont run away from the questions here.
did you even read what i posted 2 posts earlier ? i answered your damned questions over there.
if you dont bother to read, dont bother posting follow-up nonsense.
you'd like to see the FN2000 firing grenade ? http://splodetv.com/video/fn-f2000
lets do a logic extrapolation exercise here ok ? i.e THINKING
fact 1) FN2000 and SCAR share similar EGLM
fact 2) SCAR EGLM uses same fire-control system
fact 3) FN2000 is capable of firing AB grenades
from this, i can extrapolate, safely, that SCAR EGLM is able to fire AB grenades.
must i actually call a representative from FN to show you and demonstrate the AB capability on you before you believe it ?
need i remind you of the past :
One of the modules developed for the F2000 system is a proprietary lightweight 40 mm under-slung GL1 grenade launcher (empty weight – 1 kg) that uses standard low-velocity 40x46mm grenades. The launcher is a single-shot breech-loaded pump-action weapon with a barrel that slides forward for loading and unloading (like the M203 grenade launcher), locked by axial rotation of the barrel.
The weapon’s trigger was installed directly under the F2000's trigger so that it can be manipulated without removing the shooting hand from the rifle’s pistol grip. The breech release button is found on the left side of the launcher body, like on the M203. The grenade launcher barrel length is 230 mm (9.1 in). The grenade launcher comes with a basic flip-up ladder sight, but it was intended to be used with a specially-designed optoelectronic fire control system designated FCS, developed in cooperation with the Finnish company Noptel. The aiming module is installed in place of the standard optical sight and becomes the weapon’s primary sight when mounted, but its main purpose is to accurately determine and indicate the range of a grenade target. The module is powered by a 9 V battery pack, installed in the stock, behind the magazine well. The power pack is also intended to power any other tactical accessories or systems that could be introduced.
The FCS integrates a low-power laser rangefinder (precise to within +/- 1 m), a day-time aiming channel with an electronically projected reticle, a measured range display reading and a diode elevation adjustment indicator. The fire control system calculates a firing solution manifested by the barrel’s angle of elevation using target range information from the laser rangefinder (the rangefinder is activated by pushing a button on the pistol grip, below the trigger), corrected manually by the shooter through a push-button interface (add/subtract buttons) on the FCS top cover to take account for head or tail winds that could affect the desired range. The F2000 FCS also contains software with the ballistic properties of up to six types of 40 mm grenades and can be reprogrammed to take advantage of future munition improvements.
memory fail is it ?
or is it just a case of
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re sgstars or Sg Ty immediate above:
u guys just follow the same pattern of quoting but no
sources.Pl give me the sources.
Pl make sure they are talking about the present tense,
not future tense.
My English is bad.But i think u should know present tense
can decribe facts,but not necessiarly alreday become fact.
Can u confirm that they are decribing the CURRENT status?
One last simple question---in production?
@@@@@@@@@@@
If u want to use ABS as vision killers,make sure the grenade exploed
in front of tank or APC,ie minus a little bit from the range finder.
Likewise,if u want to take out anyone
behind the window,add 2 or 3 meters etc.Follow the instructions lah.
Now u know why there are few buttons on Fire Control Sys.
“Swedish Fire Control System Development”, Mr. Per G. Arvidsson, Product Manager, Small Arms Systems
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/#2007
Swedish FCS development
Trials with AGL’s with different FCS’s, and a market
study have shown that currently there is no simple,
lightweight, robust and affordable FCS available.
Sweden has therefore decided to develop a FCS with
industry for use with underslung grenade launchers,
AGL’s and 84mm Carl Gustaf recoilless rifles.....Now the question is will FMV choose either Nammo or STK SSW or none?
jnnnnn
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ST's FCS looks like Nammo SSW FCS.
hhh
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"Sing to the tune of Tom Jones' <Sex Bomb>"
Dead Horse
Dead Horse
Flog the Dead Horse
Coz it can really turn him on
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
re sgstars or Sg Ty immediate above:
u guys just follow the same pattern of quoting but no
sources.Pl give me the sources.
Pl make sure they are talking about the present tense,
not future tense.
My English is bad.But i think u should know present tense
can decribe facts,but not necessiarly alreday become fact.
Can u confirm that they are decribing the CURRENT status?
One last simple question---in production?
@@@@@@@@@@@
If u want to use ABS as vision killers,make sure the grenade exploed
in front of tank or APC,ie minus a little bit from the range finder.
Likewise,if u want to take out anyone
behind the window,add 2 or 3 meters etc.Follow the instructions lah.
Now u know why there are few buttons on Fire Control Sys.
“Swedish Fire Control System Development”, Mr. Per G. Arvidsson, Product Manager, Small Arms Systems
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/#2007
Now the question is will FMV choose either Nammo or STK SSW or none?
jnnnnn
you want me to list my sources like you ?
show off, put one whole chunk of irrelevant rubbish ? i m not as moronic as that.
i rather be more practical, listing them beside the posts and context i make. wanna see ? GO READ MY POSTS [which you most obviously havent]
sources : right beside where i quote. and i never quote out of context. i always and repeat, ALWAYS put it in context, by posting the paragraph it was in. not like you, quote one line out of context and claim it as RELIABLE, FACT, TRUTH.
ANSWER the bloody question/issues here first. dont run away. dont chicken out.
STK 1st in world to make AB grenade system ?
FN 2000 cannot shoot AB grenade.
dont talk all that nonsese about tactical use of ABS. ABS is definitely not meant to stop tanks, nor shoot at 1-3 meters. anyone who has handled a grenade or anyone with some common sense and a quarter of a brain can figure out that its not used like that.
1) backblast / blast radius
2) fragments
3) fuze has certain delay/time taken to trigger. shoot for too short a distance and your grenade will be a dud. definite, period, FACT. even with advanced FCS like FN2000, there will always be some safety limit to prevent people from doing stupid things.
so noisy-lion-who-dosent-think-before-he-posts : your 1-3 m range and at APC . u ever try poking a rhino with a toothpick ? that is what you are suggesting. the fragments wont even poke through a m113 which can take rifle fire of much higher calibre. you can try that at singapore zoo. i wouldnt recommend it though. same results either way i can predict. dumb shit that tries either will get squished, and i dont mean it in a nice way.
your so called "tactical doctrine" is that of a DUMB, STUPID, MORONIC suicide bomber. your trooper who does that is basically offering himself as a free kill target for no effect. i cant see any rational. thinking, trained soldier will do that.
i dont even think suicide bombers are that dumb (unless they happen to share the same mindset and thought patterns like you). with alot of ball bearings and other carefully explosives, one can do so much more damage than simply shooting a AB munition at that range.
you can use a AB. give me a spike or Matador or even worse, some P.E or block 3s. STILL much more higher kill probability then your AB grenade. Vision killing ? pah, dont make me laugh, you ever heard of hatch and commander's periscope ?
whichever doctrine that has armour commanders fighting open hatch in MOUT situation deserves to lose their commanders for that kinda stupidity. the tradeoff isnt worth it. on Open terrain/wooded terrain ? by a long shot u can hit the commander from range (how the heck do you survive long enough to shoot at range when the tank main gun can shoot up to 4km away and has thermal imagers to see targets who hide?) .
so it would have to be close. and how the hell does one get close enough to shoot without getting spotted by the tankies and surviving RWS machine gun and the fuze on the AB grenade arming/triggering ? all that risk, effort and improbability just to launch an AB(assuming it detonates) which is like a toothprick poking a rhino ?
in fact, whichever scenario has infantry armed with one AB grenade launching rifle against armoured vehicles in some form of another is absurd. hello ??? remember ? isnt this a straight forward rehash of your : IF ONE LCS HAS AN ASW MODULE, AND THE OTHER LCS HAS A ADA MODULE bullshit line of reasoning again ?
lol, you remind me of James bond, one pistol can kill an army, bullets never run out, explosions never seem to even leave him with a scratch. campy, crappy, humour.
self-pwned my dear lionnoisy. self-pwned.
please wait for SG-Rex to get back for the real pwning. i m standing in for him while he got exams.
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quoting without sources is meaningless.
Write on forums is like writing a thesis!!
re ST Engineering new stuff.
ST Kinetics Introduces New 40mm Solution - Low Velocity Air-Burst Munitions System 17-Jun-2008
The infantry's 40 mm punch: new designs and ammunition types ...
The 40-mm LV ABMS comprises the ABMs and a fire control system designed to clip on top of all new and existing 40-mm UGLs, including STK's CIS 40GL and the M203. The fire control system includes a red dot sight The Red dot sight, otherwise known as a Reflex sight or an Infinity sight, is an optical firearm sight, sometimes also used as an aiming sight for telescopes. and a laser rangefinder with a maximum range of 500 metres, which can be extended to 800 metres if the customer requires. The 40 x 46-mm ABM ABM: see guided missile.
ABM -( Asynchronous Balanced Mode) ammunition is armed 14 to 28 metres from the weapon and has a maximum range of 400 metres. Each fuze incorporates a built-in self-destruct feature. According to STK officials, production is ready to begin as soon as an order is received.one word of caution.Pl wait for ST Eng or STK to confirm the full
system of SAR 21 LV ABMS,including the FCS!!
ggg
