Flight international news on singaproe rafale requirements
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Singapore unlikely to be offered revamped Rafale
4-10 feb 2003
Funding issues mean idustry cannot justify development of alternative export version
Singaproe will probably be offered a basic Dassualt Rafale fighter incorporating the upgrades planned for the French air force and navy because the industrial team developing the multirole aircraft believe it will be too expensive to develop dedicated export versions.
Dassualt, engine manufacturer Snecma and avionics and sensors supplier Thales are developing planned updates that will lead to the F3 multirole standard by 2007. The three say future export customers could benefit from these as part of any deal if they buy the rafale now. In-service rafale are deployed as air to air aircraft.
Singapore will host the next major international fighter compettition with a request for proposal (RFP) covering 20 aircrafts and 20 options expected later this year.
Denis Ranque, Thales chief executive, says the Dassualt industirial team will offer Singapore and others the updates destined for the French air force and navy.
He adds that it is not worth the companies investing billions of euros in developing a version of the aircraft specifically for Singapore. However, Ranque says, if a country does select Rafale it would have an aircraft at the beginning of its 30-40 year service life with a series of planned upgrades already defined. Other liely competitiors are "at the end of the production line", he says
Export Rafales are, however, offered with more powerful engines and more powerful radars. Dassualt says French government funding for all developments up to the F3 standard guaranteed.
Regarding Singapore, Dassualt says: "Firstly, we don't yet know exactly what they want and secondly we do not know whether the French government would be willing to fund the development of a specific version."
Singapore is expected to narrow its shortlist to three or four candidates from the current field of the Boeing F-15 Eagle and F/A-18E/F Syper Hornet, Eurofighter Typhoon, Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60, Sukhoi Su-35 and Rafale before issuing its RFP -
right about time!
time to move on -
comments?
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err ok right this moment we have the F16, A4, F5
the avionics for F16 is still quite new. provided they keep up with the modification packages.
with the Rafale, I'm not sure which will be replaced A4 or F5.
that leaves us with 2 up to date a/c.
As Singapore is mainly based on defence, aircrafts will be used on offensive circumstances to prevent inbound bandits. Of cause this can be done provided they send planes to recky the airspace which will be quite hard since we do not have permission to intrude malaysian airspace. this leaves us with the South FIR airspace used by airliners bound for changi. by than flights wil be diverted and airspace closed down.
anyway if enemy aircrafts inbound from north, malaysian might either deny airways clearance or might give them the green light to go ahead (due to ongoing arguments)
most likely malaysia will not interfere. hopefully the ships can launch SAM and form a front line.
as for the jet's scope ? air defence. they can't possibly do aerial bombing in singapore and blow away residential areas. bloody suicide
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As we have, in many other threads, discussed before, RSAF's requirements for the next generation fighters are to replace the A4 in the deep strike, penetration, mud moving roles, and F16 in the BVR A2A roles, while the F16s Vipers will replace the A4s CAS and battlefield interdiction roles.
I believe the current F2 version offered by Dassault and the eventual F3 version (when and if available when theoretically RSAF gets them out of the production line) will fully meet these roles. However, the cavaet is that the F2/F3 version will only be fully equipped with French/European weapons, ie. if Singapore wants Rafales to be intergrated with all NATO compliant weapons, or more rightly in RSAF case, US and Israeli made missiles, then Singapore will have to pay for it itself. Dassult put it long and clear. It would not also create a special export version with other non-French requirements or integration of non standard equipments out of Dassault's own pocket. The French or the foreign govt will have to foot the development bills.
The question now is, how would this news affect RSAF selection? Would this harm Dassualt's chance of its first foreign export of its priced fighter? I think Not. This is because Rafale, as it current stands in its current form (F1/F2), is already a very capable platform. The F3 will enhance the platform further, just like the Block 50+/60 Vipers, which are just phased upgrade of the current RSAF Vipers. RSAF can always enter into a contract with Dassault to have the option to go with the upgrade at a pre-determined priced. Of course, this will be factor into the selection criteria. Eurofighter Typhoon will have the exact same situation, so would the E/F Superbugs and the Russian SU-30s. Vipers and the -E Strike Eagles are the only two with such a conditions I believe. Block 60 Vipers are totally new built with all the new stuffs developed for UAE and funded by them. The -E version Strike Eagles have very minimal growth left in them because the USAF would not be putting a lot more money upgrading , what is an essentially a dying fleet. Their places will be overtaken by the new Raptors.
Super bugs, the Su-30s, Typhoons and the Rafales are still relatively "young" and have lots of growth potential. I believe these are a essential attribute for RSAF when they come down to shortlisting the six. Once again, my money is on Rafale, Typhoon and the Super bugs, and in this order too
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i think we looking for replacement for the A4 and i thought they looking for something like 50 planes.....
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Officially - yes, but it is RSAF policies to have 3 different fighter types at any 1 time with 1 type forming the bulk. A4SUs has been that, and soon will be replaced by the Vipers (can you believe we actually have 70+ VipersOriginally posted by |-|05|:i think we looking for replacement for the A4 and i thought they looking for something like 50 planes.....) It is nearly a 1 to 1 replacement for the A4s. We won't see the totally replacement of A4s until just before the first arrival of the new gen fighters, just like how the Hunters were being phased out when the Vipers arrived.
The next gen fighter will essentially be the aircraft to replace some of current Vipers' roles, namely deep penetration strikes and air superiority roles. They are only probably going to be 2 sqn strong, eg. the same as current 2 sqn F-5s. The F-5s will be retired at the arrival of the first F35. -
how you know they are oging to get F35?Originally posted by Joe Black:Officially - yes, but it is RSAF policies to have 3 different fighter types at any 1 time with 1 type forming the bulk. A4SUs has been that, and soon will be replaced by the Vipers (can you believe we actually have 70+ Vipers) It is nearly a 1 to 1 replacement for the A4s. We won't see the totally replacement of A4s until just before the first arrival of the new gen fighters, just like how the Hunters were being phased out when the Vipers arrived.
The next gen fighter will essentially be the aircraft to replace some of current Vipers' roles, namely deep penetration strikes and air superiority roles. They are only probably going to be 2 sqn strong, eg. the same as current 2 sqn F-5s. The F-5s will be retired at the arrival of the first F35. Current status is still obeserver, with 6million thrown in for that if i'm not wrong. . . -
We have 3 F-5S/T Squadrons. 144,141 and 149 sqn.
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2 fighter sqn. 141 sqn is recon, there are only 8 RF-5S in that sqn.Originally posted by eurofighter:We have 3 F-5S/T Squadrons. 144,141 and 149 sqn. -
Wrong Joe Black! 141 has F-5S AND F-5T as well.Originally posted by Joe Black:2 fighter sqn. 141 sqn is recon, there are only 8 RF-5S in that sqn. -
Funny you confirmed this. I got the feeling I was wrong too after I posted this. However, I don't understand how RSAF can split some 40+ Tigers into 3 sqns. Do they have some 16 planes per sqn only? That's a little small compared with a USAF, RAF or even IAF air force right?Originally posted by Viper52:Wrong Joe Black! 141 has F-5S AND F-5T as well. -
Don't rule the F-15S out yet. Remember our good friend in the middle east operates F-15Is with great success. With the successful trial of the Have Lite 2, it may provide RSAF with another useful stand off PGM. Our F-15S can be easily upgraded, and modified with help from the Israelis who have a pretty large database on known SAM technology. Which means we can customise our TEWS for our SPECIFIC region.
Those planes maybe old, but it can definitely last. If I am not wrong, they can run both GE-129s and PW-229s. If we throw PW-229s in our F-15S, it will reduce another set of logistic training, though not completely, but reduced.
It is what we require, except that the airframe is a little old, but not-obsolete. Don't forget we are considering the JSF. -
Actually average USAF squadrons have 12-16 planes, depending on command, type, theater etc etc. And at its zenith the combat squadrons in the USN have 12 planes per squadron. As for F-16s, we have 25 brids split 15-10 among 140 and 143, if ST reports on 143 Sqn are to be believed...Originally posted by Joe Black:Funny you confirmed this. I got the feeling I was wrong too after I posted this. However, I don't understand how RSAF can split some 40+ Tigers into 3 sqns. Do they have some 16 planes per sqn only? That's a little small compared with a USAF, RAF or even IAF air force right? -
Wonder why everyone says that the variant of F-15 we'll be getting is F-15S. Royal Saudi Air Force's F-15E has the designation F-15S already. Probably ours will be called F-15SU.
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saudi 1 last time is designate as -15xp but change to -15sOriginally posted by eurofighter:Wonder why everyone say that the variant of F-15 we'll be getting is F-15S. Royal Saudi Air Force's F-15E has the designation F-15S already. Probably ours will be called F-15SU.
ps:i also wish is call -15su for sg version -
Oh, BTW heres public domain proof of 141 Sqns F-5S
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I thought there are more than 12 per sqn in USN, unless they have changed. My last count on each Tomcat sqn goes between 16 to 18 per sqn for the CVNs. The same with the bugs. The total no. of aircraft on a CVNs these days are approx about 80 planes. They used to have about 100 planes during the cold war period. Thus, the count for 4 sqn of fighter/bombers, 2 Tomcats and 2 bugs, plus 4 E-2Cs, a few S3 Vikings for anti-sub and mid air refuel, a couple of Seahawks and probably 1 or 2 transporters make up the 80 planes.Originally posted by Viper52:Actually average USAF squadrons have 12-16 planes, depending on command, type, theater etc etc. And at its zenith the combat squadrons in the USN have 12 planes per squadron. As for F-16s, we have 25 brids split 15-10 among 140 and 143, if ST reports on 143 Sqn are to be believed...
What about Israeli sqns? Aren't they approx 20 planes per sqn?
I cannot see how a 12 fighter plane sqn can be put to war. I can understand if a sqn flies either the tactical or strategic bombers to have only 12 planes. But a fighter sqn with 12 planes will soon find itself having insufficient planes for any sorties. Fon't forget about downtime and attritions. -
Oh yes. Airliners.net has four pages of great and never seen before RSAF pics.
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Originally posted by Joe Black:
No way Joe Black...see this site, ever since the 60s its 10-12 a/c per VF/VA/VFA max.
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I thought there are more than 12 per sqn in USN, unless they have changed. My last count on each Tomcat sqn goes between 16 to 18 per sqn for the CVNs. The same with the bugs. The total no. of aircraft on a CVNs these days are approx about 80 planes. They used to have about 100 planes during the cold war period. Thus, the count for 4 sqn of fighter/bombers, 2 Tomcats and 2 bugs, plus 4 E-2Cs, a few S3 Vikings for anti-sub and mid air refuel, a couple of Seahawks and probably 1 or 2 transporters make up the 80 planes.
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Just like to clarify once and for all. Do the R/F-5S/T series carry 1 or 2 cannons? If it's 1 cannon, it's on which side?Originally posted by Viper52:Oh, BTW heres public domain proof of 141 Sqns F-5S -
got single gun one meh?
I thought all F5 versions carry 2 ? -
One gun only. LHS is cannon. RHS is an air scoop similar to the two seatersOriginally posted by IAF:Just like to clarify once and for all. Do the R/F-5S/T series carry 1 or 2 cannons? If it's 1 cannon, it's on which side? -
Thanks dude...btw, what's an air scoop for?Originally posted by Viper52:One gun only. LHS is cannon. RHS is an air scoop similar to the two seaters -
i hope F5...Originally posted by Flight Cadet Officer:with the Rafale, I'm not sure which will be replaced A4 or F5.
so i can get posted to Paya Lebar Airbase... and go for overseas upgrade courses to fix Rafales!