IMI Travor 21 Assault Rifle sales.
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as reported on janes defence weekly 8th of jan 2003, india has became the rifle's first export customer. the contract will include the provision of 5.56mm ammo, nite vision sights, laser range finders and other targetting equipments.
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What rifle is that? Anyone got the photo or webside? Which country made it?
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its made by israel... it looks almost EXACTLY like the SAR21... go figure...Originally posted by Anza Andy:What rifle is that? Anyone got the photo or webside? Which country made it?
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So..who copy who?
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http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/0700/737.htm
go there..... and look around the webby too... has almost every weapon in the world in it... all in pics -
does it seem conceivable to suggest that israel copied ST???Originally posted by Anza Andy:So..who copy who? -
I dun think there is an issue of copying... more of heh heh, "insensitive-to-our-neighbour-cooperation"...
Not surpised if we traded some notes, our advanced assualt rifles are virtual siblings to each other... -
Singapore-Isreali cooperation...
I think they tried out our Ultimaxes onces... the much malinged SAW that's loved by everyone but Singaporean soldiers... obviously becos they never had the "privillage" of trying other heavier, less reliable and harder to use SAWs... -
I've got a copy of Military Technology magazine from a few years ago - both the Tavor and SAR21 claim to be the first bullpup rifles with built in laser pointers. Both were released at about the same time as well. There could be some co-operation at the concept design stage, but that's about it.
The Tavor 21 has been sold to Croatia as well. -
the ultimax is a good weapon concept, but a badly made weapon...Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Singapore-Isreali cooperation...
I think they tried out our Ultimaxes onces... the much malinged SAW that's loved by everyone but Singaporean soldiers... obviously becos they never had the "privillage" of trying other heavier, less reliable and harder to use SAWs...
my experience with it has been quite good... especially with live rounds. its a fantastic weapon. it always jams with blanks cos blanks don't generate enough gas for the open bolt action to work properly so its not the rifle's fault
"badly made weapon" because the anti-rust treatment is CRAP. its funny cos the m16s don't seem to have that problem... -
jus wondering, SingaporeTyrannosaur have you had experience wif the section automatic weapon of other make? i did . wif the US SAW which they fondly called the 249. although it mite not be as light as the saw singapore use, it's very accurate at prone position up to 600m.much better tripod.Originally posted by CX:the ultimax is a good weapon concept, but a badly made weapon...
my experience with it has been quite good... especially with live rounds. its a fantastic weapon. it always jams with blanks cos blanks don't generate enough gas for the open bolt action to work properly so its not the rifle's fault
"badly made weapon" because the anti-rust treatment is CRAP. its funny cos the m16s don't seem to have that problem...
agree that the saw mk I and II are poorly manufactured weapon. hope to see more improvement over the saw mk III -
Ultimax Mk1 & 2 model are fixed barrel and no "chroming" to prevent rust, Mk3 model is actual wartime issue weapon which has quick removal barrel and same antirust chroming as the M16. Been live firing the Mk2 with 100 rounds drum while charging uphill during army days, the feeling is damn shiok man, pumping drums of lead which penatrating blocks of steel plate target at 600m, 400m, 200m and at point distance
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hear,hear mi saw gunner in my army days had been using the mk3 model the shiok feeling still in my bone manOriginally posted by bigballs11:Ultimax Mk1 & 2 model are fixed barrel and no "chroming" to prevent rust, Mk3 model is actual wartime issue weapon which has quick removal barrel and same antirust chroming as the M16. Been live firing the Mk2 with 100 rounds drum while charging uphill during army days, the feeling is damn shiok man, pumping drums of lead which penatrating blocks of steel plate target at 600m, 400m, 200m and at point distance -
Only 1 thing hate to clean that rustly shit when after mission
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During joint exercises some US marines got to try our Ultimax, and they commented how much more they prefered it to their own 249 Para. If taken care of, the Ultimax is extremely reliable. It's among the finest SAWs in the world, if somewhat obsqure...
PS. The Russians love the ultimaxes they bought from us too... -
Most of the comments coming back from other nationals who have used the Ultimax are pretty rave. They don't complain about the rusting though (apparently they understand it's part of life) but they do complain about the drum mag, while superior to box magazines, is hard to load because a slip with the speedloader means you risk spraying bullets all over the place.
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huh? a rifle with poor anti rust treatment is not a fact of life! its a pathetic anomaly...
true... all weapons are prone to corrosion if not taken properly, but the SAW my goodness... it gets really bad out field...
i think all saw gunners would appreciate it if ST did something to improve their finishing... -
I would not mind them coming out with more polymer parts for the ultimax though... in fact it's high time for a MK4 version... that is more akin in technology to the SAR-21 then the outdated M-16... then we truly have the finest SAW about...
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perhaps they like it because it's lighter. so for them,being bigger in size, can handle it very well. i agree there' a need for a mk4 version or ultimax or a totally new design saw.
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hmmmm........ tot they only mention that it's a good weapon? when they demo the 249 to us,they did it wif so much pride and they seems to enjoy showing us the weapon. stating the specs here and there, how they enjoy giving supporting fire in a firefight wif the 249. how they would not trade it for any other saw?Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:During joint exercises some US marines got to try our Ultimax, and they commented how much more they prefered it to their own 249 Para. If taken care of, the Ultimax is extremely reliable. It's among the finest SAWs in the world, if somewhat obsqure...
PS. The Russians love the ultimaxes they bought from us too...
when did the russians bought the ultimax? you meant the croatians huh?care to give more details? -
heh
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Strange... I actually saw a picture of some rather far russian soldiers (red, white blue flag) test firing the Ultimax mk 2 or 3...judging from their reviews... maybe in their climate it does not rust...
Of course the marines like their 249... However I believe they did state that the Ultimax had many qualities they prefered over their own. The 249 is certainly a fine weapon as well. -
I'm sure lotsa people read this in Jane's Combat Arms manual; it stated that the Ultimax is a good weapon, just that it was poor marketing strategy...it came out after major armies have already selected their SAWs...the U.S. being one of them. However, I believe that its still the best LMG around. Anyone ever carried the full load of 4 hundred rds drum mags before?
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It's possibly the finest and most cost-effective SAW around, but it's lack of publicity preludes it from widespread sales... it came out at the wrong time lah...
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I remember that the US Navy Seal once bought a batch of Ultimax 100 (most likely pre Mk 3 version). However, it has never been accepted as widespread adoption in the Navy or the Marines. Other than Croatia, ST Kinetics (Charted Industries) did sell to a number of customers, including the Phillippines and Burma I think.