Standard anti-ballastic/ bullet proof vest,.. ..for the SAF.
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In the new era of combat , individual troop survivability prove to be an important issue. With increasing danger in urban and jungle combat , isnt it time for the SAF to issue standard bullet proof vest , night vision goggles and other equidment to boost the survivability of each and every foot soldier????
I understand that the SAF is coming out a ''combat suit'' which including new SBO , electronic rifle sight , night vision goggle/ HMS and of course anti-ballastic vest. However , does anyone know when will SAF issue out these ''suit"?
Even if the " suit '' will be still under development for another few years , will the SAF issue out similar equipment ( NVG.....etc)to her soldiers in tomorrow's battle?? I understand that onli sectional commander and the other elite forces do equiped with it , but the other equally important foot soldiers??
I wonder is this topic classified but anyone who have info on it or keen on the discussion, pls enlighten us ...tHx~! -
well..... after it becomes equipped for special forces, if the feedback is positive... standard soldiers have a good chance of being in those suits.....
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Originally posted by foxtrout8:In the new era of combat , individual troop survivability prove to be an important issue. With increasing danger in urban and jungle combat , isnt it time for the SAF to issue standard bullet proof vest , night vision goggles and other equidment to boost the survivability of each and every foot soldier????
I think they probably wanna wait till the whole thing is complete, but if they say nothing abt having an interim plan, it may be good news, cos it probably means the combat gear (i won't call them suits 
) are not too long in the making
I understand that the SAF is coming out a ''combat suit'' which including new SBO , electronic rifle sight , night vision goggle/ HMS and of course anti-ballastic vest. However , does anyone know when will SAF issue out these ''suit"? errr. .. whats SBO. .. can't remember the details, read the PIONEER article so long ago. ..
Even if the " suit '' will be still under development for another few years , will the SAF issue out similar equipment ( NVG.....etc)to her soldiers in tomorrow's battle?? I understand that onli sectional commander and the other elite forces do equiped with it , but the other equally important foot soldiers?? I think even if only the section commanders and elite units get it, the rest should get at least the vest, seems a good idea to keep ur soldiers alive, esp. when u dun have too many of them. Abt the NVGs, i think they'll probably be issued only when necessary, doesn't make sense to carry the thing around if you dun really need it, I think its pretty bulky
I wonder is this topic classified but anyone who have info on it or keen on the discussion, pls enlighten us ...tHx~! Dun think the main features of the suit are classified, else they wouldn't have done an article abt it in PIONEER in the first place. When it is introduced, esp. if on a sizable scale, I expect will hear alot of news abt it, will score loads of publicity points for SAF if they are shown caring for survivability of their soldiers. -
eh... i'll only like it if its LIGHT...
the NVG already needs some getting used to... its invaluable once u DO get used to it, but its heavy... i'ld prefer if ST applied some miniaturization and ergonomics to it
who wants to wear a heavy set of body armour out field if it impedes movement and gets u killed instead... -
I've noticed that most people give excuses that wearinf body armor will get you killed because of the lack of mobility is COCKAMINE. Why?
Because the stats prove it.
While body armor can be heavy (+5-8 kg weight to protect against 7.62 threats). In pratice as they found in vietnam (at that time still using steel plates rather then kevlar, so much heavier) it actually reduces injury and fatality when checked against non-armoured units by seventy percent! Apparently the trade off in mobility was more then worth it.
Body armor is designed to protect, and also give you resonable mobility. I dun mind lugging around 5-8 extra kilos if it means that I have a 70 percent higher chance of making it back. Case in point, a large number of Rangers in the Black Hawk down incident were injured and killed not because they could not run and dodge fast enough, but because they left armor plates out of their body armor to make it lighter, rendering it protective only up to pistol ammo and useless against 7.62mm rounds. Seregant Casey Joyce, shot in the back and killed by a 7.62 mm shot that went through his heart because he left his back plate out. The bullet went through him and was ironicly stopped by his front plate after it passed through him. Had he brought along his full suite of armor, he would have survived.
Modern body armor against rifle grade threats is heavy, but reasonable enough to entail wearing it rather then going out sans-armour with only your BDU and skin to stop bullets.
Many other injuried were also sustained because the Rangers left out their armor plates.
So moral of the story? Dun complain your BA is heavy, start training your wimpy body instead to take the weight... [/i] -
Body armour is good only for some situations like in FIBUA where casualty rate is up to 40%, (including minor injuries to KIA), according to certain foreign advisors. I don't see body armour being used in an extended jungle warfare situation, unless the new vests are lighter, and more comfortable. I have tried out a bullet proof vest before - really needs to get used to. Felt like a turtle at first. Perhaps the SAF will issue new vests in future, but to be used in certain situations. I remember my unit using jungle hats most of the time in Brunei, it was a real privilege. We switched to helmets closer to the objectives though.
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There's just one word... keep them on to avoid unnecessary prefortation... Be it FIBUA of jungle operations... you never know...
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I know the maxim, "you train as you fight, you fight as you train".
A normal NSF wants to complete his 2.5 years with min. fuss and a lao qiao NSman wants to finish off his ICT without too much of sweat.
Now you want them to lug around additional weight during field training in Singapore's climate.
I think BA if fine. but the SAF will have consider the additonal weight and its effect on the individual infantryman. If you ferry a trooper via helicopter or APCs right to the objective it is OK. If the trooper is doing statc defense with local counter-attacks even better.
But I don't think anyone will be looking forward to a long force march with additional 5-8 kg and then have to have a hard fight at the end of the march
The SAF should not only look at BA but should also look at ways to reduce weight of other eqpt. I know that they are always actively looking at that direction.
But the widely touted new SAR21 is not lighter than the current M16S1. I know it is suppose to be damn good (never shot one before), with optical sight, better balance, see-thru magazine, laser aimpoint etc etc.... but with more capabilities, it is actually heavier.
And the future infantryman is suppose to have even more types of eqpt, latest-NVGs, GPS, some sort of SA-enhancing Integration Battle Information system.
All these will give a infantryman additional battle-effectiveness but at the same time will increase his payload and increase his rate of exhaustion.
Remember not everyone is commando type, if you look at each batch of enlistees, they come in all shape and sizes. No offence to everyone on the above statement, I am Singaporean NSman too.
We also should make realistic comparision, the average SAF infantryman is not a US Ranger in terms of pure physical brawn. We also cannot compare ourselves with the regular US infranty because we do not train continuously especially the NSmen. -
Good Points.Originally posted by spencer99:snip ..............
I think BA if fine. but the SAF will have consider the additonal weight and its effect on the individual infantryman. If you ferry a trooper via helicopter or APCs right to the objective it is OK. If the trooper is doing statc defense with local counter-attacks even better.
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Actually troops that are heli-inserted are usually done so far away from the objective. I wonder how is it like to be wearing a bullet proof vest and sitting in a the helicoptor - already its so tight in space with all the equipment we carry and I remember having difficulty finding the seltbelts in the dark.
Agreed - with APCs and local counter-attacks units, bullet proof vests are a more likely choice for these selected units. Although, it will be very warm sitting in the vehicle during the day.
Still, bullet proof vests are not standard for most armies around the world yet. -
i agree with spencer99...
i will be put off by the additional weight... whatever the statistics says...
but then again, weight is a misleading term to use... the SAR21, despite being slightly heavier, is actually better balanced in its weight distribution so its easier to carry. that is an important point to: not weight, but ergonomics.
and that applies to everything. rifle, eqipment, body armour... if it is well designed with ergonomics in mind, weight shouldn't be a problem. -
The saf already issued bullet proof vest to selected infantry units, you won't see it in the active units though mostly reservist units and even then selected units.Originally posted by foxtrout8:In the new era of combat , individual troop survivability prove to be an important issue. With increasing danger in urban and jungle combat , isnt it time for the SAF to issue standard bullet proof vest , night vision goggles and other equidment to boost the survivability of each and every foot soldier????
I understand that the SAF is coming out a ''combat suit'' which including new SBO , electronic rifle sight , night vision goggle/ HMS and of course anti-ballastic vest. However , does anyone know when will SAF issue out these ''suit"?
Even if the " suit '' will be still under development for another few years , will the SAF issue out similar equipment ( NVG.....etc)to her soldiers in tomorrow's battle?? I understand that onli sectional commander and the other elite forces do equiped with it , but the other equally important foot soldiers??
I wonder is this topic classified but anyone who have info on it or keen on the discussion, pls enlighten us ...tHx~!
The vest is not integrated to the SBO, it looks like a jacket with front and rear pockets to insert composite amour plates, then your SBO goes on top of it.
But this is only interim if not standard battle dress for selected units. I believe as you said there will be a more integrated one in the years to come.
ST Engr btw from my findings has invested in companies who invested/partner in other companies developing nanotechnology, mobile hydrogen powerpacks and other stuff, which may lead one believe that these are building blocks you may find in a EXOSKELETON suit ... like what the US ARMY is currently developing.
If it is true, then it will be really awesome one day ... like the human infantry troops in starcraft. -
then we'll see starcraft marine and firebat troopers walking around with gauss rifles and flamethrowers....
btw abt the sar-21 thing.... i am not in NS yet... but i've fired both weapons before... My personal opinion is that the short m16 family weapons are easier to carry than the sar21... stability.... SAR-21 wins....
Oh yes..... there's a couple of queries i would like to ask....
Does the French armed forces use FN-P90s for actual battlefieldcombat? Was in school chatting with friends over lunch when the topic came up... one of em said that he read in an article abt french soldiers using p90s as their standard issue and the weapon fires .357 / .44 magnum cartriges... I thought all the time it was using the 5.7mm unless they came up with another model for magnum calibre.
another qn is regarding the M82 Barret. I think many of you know which weapon i am talking abt... the M82 originall was chambered for .5 cal heavy rounds.. was that changed to fire .44 Magnum rounds too? -
I believe the french use the FA-MAS but the Swiss and Belgium's Army uses the P-90 submachine gun.Originally posted by Moonstriker:then we'll see starcraft marine and firebat troopers walking around with gauss rifles and flamethrowers....
btw abt the sar-21 thing.... i am not in NS yet... but i've fired both weapons before... My personal opinion is that the short m16 family weapons are easier to carry than the sar21... stability.... SAR-21 wins....
Oh yes..... there's a couple of queries i would like to ask....
Does the French armed forces use FN-P90s for actual battlefieldcombat? Was in school chatting with friends over lunch when the topic came up... one of em said that he read in an article abt french soldiers using p90s as their standard issue and the weapon fires .357 / .44 magnum cartriges... I thought all the time it was using the 5.7mm unless they came up with another model for magnum calibre.
another qn is regarding the M82 Barret. I think many of you know which weapon i am talking abt... the M82 originall was chambered for .5 cal heavy rounds.. was that changed to fire .44 Magnum rounds too?
I dun think the P-90 is intergrated to fire with .357 /.44 magnum rounds ( i cant find any info on it ). I personnally believe magnum rounds are too strong for normal combat uses ..... -
I don't see why they should use .357 or .44 Magnum. The 5.7mm cartridge was meant to pierce Kevlar vests, and it did that very well during the tests. I'll need some time to dig up the exact stats, but in any case, I think converting an FN P90 to fire Magnum rounds would not be very practical. First, like you said, the recoil would be a little too strong. Secondly, not only would you have to rebarrel the P90, you'd have to reinforce the chamber, bolt carrier, etc. to deal with the increased pressure of firing a Magnum round. Thirdly, you'd have to develop a caseless Magnum round (not very easy, mind you). Not to mention that the increased bullet weight means less rounds per magazine.Originally posted by foxtrout8:I believe the french use the FA-MAS but the Swiss and Belgium's Army uses the P-90 submachine gun.
I dun think the P-90 is intergrated to fire with .357 /.44 magnum rounds ( i cant find any info on it ). I personnally believe magnum rounds are too strong for normal combat uses .....
Also, why would they want to use the P90 on the battlefield? I feel that in an urban environment, a P90 would be an excellent weapon, but in the jungle, or over longer distances a traditional assault rifle would be superior.
And regarding the Swiss, I think they use the SG series (SG550/551/552). The Belgians probably use the new FN FNC rifle (also 5.56mm).
Just my two cents. -
I realize people always compain about how heavy body armor is until the bullets start flying... then they start cursing and swearing why they didn't bring along more...
It's something that can save your life, and it's something you got to get used to.
Unfortunately, ignoring the "stats" is just utter foolishness, because you want to be comfortable, a shot that would be stopped by body armor rips through your liver and severs your spine, then we start to regret. BA saves lifes, bottom line. If comfort was always an issue, might as well argue not train IPPT becos it's not comfortable for soldiers who dun like to exercise. At least they go to war happy.
Good news though, that might bring closure to this debate, BA technology is rapidly increasing to the point that most advanced vests like the US interceptor provide great protection (level 5) and are comfortable to wear as well. Best protection I've seen is the SWAT level 9 armor, it can stop shotgun copper slugs dead center... actually carries more protection in the vest then the side armor of an M113! Light it is not... -
The SAR-21 is actually heavier, but the egronimics make it far easier to move about... though as with all bullpups, FIBUA is a bit of a problem.
All in all use it long enuff and you'll find it's a VAST improvement over the M-16. Rarely jams, exremely reliable and robust and strips down to only a few parts in under 10 seconds... Less cleaning and far easier to shoot. Just point and zap, worry much less with getting a proper sight picture...
Unfortunately, this also means that M-16 blockheads like most of us have to learn some new skills to use this weapon effectively, rather then give a critical I've-handled-it-for-5-seconds-and-think-the-M-16-is-still-better "reviews" which is hardly intelligent or fair at all. Most soldiers who have been issued with it and used it long enuff soon came to gave rave reviews about it...
In part, unaccepetence to the SAR-21 also stems from a attitude of distrust towards local weapons, while other countries are giving it the thumbs up, we are nit piocking with it. I bet if we were introducing Styer Augs, a older and less advanced weapon then the SAR-21, also all the "reviews" here would be rave.
Nuff said, M-16 is passe, SAR-21 is the new thing... -
I've got a couple of qsns though...does the SAR 21 come with a bayonet?
Another qsn is, what's the diff. between the SF variant and the regular variant of the SAR 21? Is it the flat-top picatinny rail? I do like the SAR 21 athough I didn't carry an M-16 in NS; only the CAR-15...lighter, shorter, a difficult to control though...
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[quote]Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
The SAR-21 is actually heavier, but the egronimics make it far easier to move about... though as with all bullpups, FIBUA is a bit of a problem.
All in all use it long enuff and you'll find it's a VAST improvement over the M-16. Rarely jams, exremely reliable and robust and strips down to only a few parts in under 10 seconds... Less cleaning and far easier to shoot. Just point and zap, worry much less with getting a proper sight picture...
half a year plus long enough or not?
i agree it do have some of the qualities you mentioned but a few parts in ten sec? boy, peacetime "see-who-strip-sar21-faster" NCC competition, maybe. i
for adults, after range,section live firin........there's definately more parts to strip and clean. not to mention the size and the length of the bolt carrier!!! same as m16, only longer, much longer. if you like cleaning the m16's bolt carrier group then perhaps you would like the sar21.
Unfortunately, this also means that M-16 blockheads like most of us have to learn some new skills to use this weapon effectively, rather then give a critical I've-handled-it-for-5-seconds-and-think-the-M-16-is-still-better "reviews" which is hardly intelligent or fair at all. Most soldiers who have been issued with it and used it long enuff soon came to gave rave reviews about it...
true..1'm a m-16 block head.
hate those "I've-handled-it-for-5-seconds-at-the-army-open-hse-[pause]-fired-a-few-shots-off-the-sar21-and-think-this-and-that" people. damn cocky and sucky.
perhaps wat you said before was true. if you put 2 gyus to a test. one is m16 trained the other no weapon knowledge, perhaps the latter would have a more enjoyable time with the sar21. but could it be it look nicer? i dun know man...
In part, unaccepetence to the SAR-21 also stems from a attitude of distrust towards local weapons, while other countries are giving it the thumbs up, we are nit piocking with it. I bet if we were introducing Styer Augs, a older and less advanced weapon then the SAR-21, also all the "reviews" here would be rave.
i can still recall the time when me and my buddies went for a sar21 course at school of infantry weapons, training wing. after four days of course, we were asked to write the pros and cons of sar21. funny how most of us mentioned the plastic mag.
no, didn't touch the augs before. but looks much lighter.
oh by the way, i support the locally manufactured weapon but i realised that they have one common problem. they dun seems to have much end-user-input, less you are talking about after the weapon has been made. but seriously, only the engineers at st decide wat they think is the best for the rest of saf. they look very nice on paper but sometimes ........ perhaps they need a litttle bit of improvement here and there..
bionix--------- great gun (25mm bushmaster)
--------- great suspension;
--------- powerful engine
---------- great mobility
but doesn't Sing Tech state the they could fit a section size inside in wif ease?
have you tried the bionix before in SBO battle dress? carryin your rifle? tell you, when accident, no need do overturn drill. confirm die one.
Nuff said, M-16 is passe, SAR-21 is the new thing...
yeah....sianzzzz....wondered if the results would be better if the sar21 if used to trained the recuits in bmtc???[/b] -
[quote]
bionix--------- great gun (25mm bushmaster)
--------- great suspension;
--------- powerful engine
---------- great mobility
but doesn't Sing Tech state the they could fit a section size inside in wif ease?
have you tried the bionix before in SBO battle dress? carryin your rifle? tell you, when accident, no need do overturn drill. confirm die one.
Couldn't agree with you more!!!!
Those guys as ST doesn't have a clue about armour ops. They certainly have not tried sitting in the back of a Bionix in full SBO with weapons with outside temp. in the 30s DegC. Those with experience with the M113 would know the difference. The M113 is like a Mercedes Benz (in terms of comfort) compared to the Bionix.
If only they will take out the folding seat in the middle, that will be much better!
FYI, I'm an NSman in Armour Unit, so I definitely can understand what is the term "packed like sardines". -
Originally posted by warspite:
singapore so hot but they dun invest in a good air conditioning system for it's armor. sad.........
[quote]
[b]bionix--------- great gun (25mm bushmaster)
--------- great suspension;
--------- powerful engine
---------- great mobility
but doesn't Sing Tech state the they could fit a section size inside in wif ease?
have you tried the bionix before in SBO battle dress? carryin your rifle? tell you, when accident, no need do overturn drill. confirm die one.
Couldn't agree with you more!!!!
Those guys as ST doesn't have a clue about armour ops. They certainly have not tried sitting in the back of a Bionix in full SBO with weapons with outside temp. in the 30s DegC. Those with experience with the M113 would know the difference. The M113 is like a Mercedes Benz (in terms of comfort) compared to the Bionix.
If only they will take out the folding seat in the middle, that will be much better!
FYI, I'm an NSman in Armour Unit, so I definitely can understand what is the term "packed like sardines". [/b]
40SAR huh? -
Nope. I was from 42nd. 1993-96.
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Bionix has no aircon unless Tony Tan wants to take a spin in one huh?
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You can fix a bayonet on the SAR-21, but most bulpups a lot less effective at bayonet fighting because they are shorter... then again, a bayonet is more of a last ditch weapon so this isn't exactly a massive weapon... I suggest you grip the front part and use the ploymer axe-shaped like a blade and swing the entire thing to butt stroke people... But I suppose hand-to-hand combat will get less emphasis in the future, because you dun see the OCIWS getting a serious melee outfit... prehaps you could use your sharpened entrenching tool as a melee weapon... think the marines do it... one hit comfirm disembowel the person one... and you will end up scooping out his guts...Originally posted by Tango1:I've got a couple of qsns though...does the SAR 21 come with a bayonet?
Another qsn is, what's the diff. between the SF variant and the regular variant of the SAR 21? Is it the flat-top picatinny rail? I do like the SAR 21 athough I didn't carry an M-16 in NS; only the CAR-15...lighter, shorter, a difficult to control though... -
yeah....sianzzzz....wondered if the results would be better if the sar21 if used to trained the recuits in bmtc???
From what I heard, currently they still want to train recruits on the M-16... becos the SAR-21 is so good and easy to shoot (more like arcade style gun then most traditional firearms) that it promotes bad shooting habits, so BMT wants to start them on the right foot... if not they given M-16 after then trained on SAR-21 sure die one... SAR-21 increases the accuracy of the shooter in some cases by nearly 90 percent. They had given some bobo shooters who cannot hit anything with the M-16 in the range the SAR-21 to try out, given basic instructions, and they were hitting the target enuff to earn marksman. The gun is just too forgiving and idiot-proof. Lose a part? Drop it? No problem, the sights will still be accucrate and you can just replace the missing module (besides it strips down into bigger parts so that they're harder to break or lose) and the gun will work as normal. It's a prime example of modern day weapons engineering, where you can just pull a rifle off the assembly line and go to war with it with minimal adjustment... They all work the same way. -
Originally posted by foga:
Sounds amazing, but in a demostration, they put it together in just 12 seconds and the guy was pretty senang... not even rushing like when we try to put the M-16 together... if got competition, the rifle will just come right together infront of our eyes while we're still fumbling with the M-16 retaining pin...
[quote]
half a year plus long enough or not?
i agree it do have some of the qualities you mentioned but a few parts in ten sec? boy, peacetime "see-who-strip-sar21-faster" NCC competition, maybe