your flats spalling ceiling does not invalidate the strength of all HDB flats which are build with reinforced concrete...Originally posted by observe:what talking you.....the previous flat i stayed always got spalling ceiling problem! HDB block built with reinforce concrete....my foot!
I rather take my chances hiding in the lokang.
Yah, i've seen the corroded metal bars...but i don't consider that kind of reinforcement good enough seeing how thin those metal bars.Originally posted by tripwire:your flats spalling ceiling does not invalidate the strength of all HDB flats which are build with reinforced concrete...
in fact... its because your previous flats have reinforced metal bars in its concrete that causes the spalling of the concrete when water seeps into it..![]()
of course.... to each his choice... since you like longkang...Originally posted by observe:Yah, i've seen the corroded metal bars...but i don't consider that kind of reinforcement good enough seeing how thin those metal bars.
BTW, I have also been to the WTC (before it collapse)....there is really no comparison with the low quality HDB block that we have. The WTC was actually designed to take the impact of an aircraft, though they did not consider the gallons of fuel from the aircraft.
If you so strongly believe in the structure of the HDB block...well good luck to you!
Like I say, I'm taking my chances in the longkang!
how could you compare the destructive power of a laser guided bomb of several thoudsand pounds against a submunition that carries less the 10kg of explosive, unguided and have no known penetration ability like the US bunker buster??Originally posted by Atobe:Would not count on the concrete structure of the HDB to withstand any artillery strikes, at least not from a "rain storm" of rockets from a battery of MRLS.
Even Saddam Hussein's hardened concrete shelters were blown open, when penetrated by a single laser guided bomb that got in via the vent shaft.
The HDB block will collapse like a stack of card, like the New York WTC, when the weight from the upper floors crashing down, caused a multiple downward pressure that fold the entire structure into itself.
Will HDB use concrete that are specially formulated for use in the storage of our SAF ammunition ?
What will be the cost impact to the buyers of HDB flats built with such special concrete ?
The only prospect of a safe HDB flat will be an inner bomb shelter, that is stacked one on top of the other, to serve each family unit.
The external building structure can crash down leaving the column of bomb shelters standing vertically skyward.
The next problem is for the SCDF to reach the bomb shelter on the Twentieth Floor, to bring the occupants down when the entire building structure is no longer existing.
Atobe, I've heard of this inner bomb shelter, but I doubt it is meant for use in a situation when the rest of the building comes crashing down. It probably is meant for use when the rest of the building is cracking up BUT has not totally been destroyed yet. Also think about it, even if the shelters remain standing while the rest of the building falls, how do the people in the shelters get out?? The lower floors will be trapped by rubble and can't get out, the middle floors will have to crawl down the rubble and pray it does not collapse more, and the upper floors can only watch other climb down or jump and hope they don't break too many bones when they land!Originally posted by Atobe:Would not count on the concrete structure of the HDB to withstand any artillery strikes, at least not from a "rain storm" of rockets from a battery of MRLS.
Even Saddam Hussein's hardened concrete shelters were blown open, when penetrated by a single laser guided bomb that got in via the vent shaft.
The HDB block will collapse like a stack of card, like the New York WTC, when the weight from the upper floors crashing down, caused a multiple downward pressure that fold the entire structure into itself.
Will HDB use concrete that are specially formulated for use in the storage of our SAF ammunition ?
What will be the cost impact to the buyers of HDB flats built with such special concrete ?
The only prospect of a safe HDB flat will be an inner bomb shelter, that is stacked one on top of the other, to serve each family unit.
The external building structure can crash down leaving the column of bomb shelters standing vertically skyward.
The next problem is for the SCDF to reach the bomb shelter on the Twentieth Floor, to bring the occupants down when the entire building structure is no longer existing.
if my mathematics serve me well... 1km square is equal to 1,000,000 meter square....Originally posted by observe:Let me provide you the gist of the report at Utusan Malaysia...eventhough my Malay is now quite rusty due to lack of use.
The reports states that 24 SS60 and 24 SS80 live rockets were used and the launch was right on target which was 60km away. It took 117sec for the rockets to reach the target area. Since it was a sea target, the effects of the weapons cannot be seen. And it was only done this way because they is no live firing range long enough for this demonstartion. The army plans to get the SS30 (35km) range so that the next live firing can be conducted at Asahan and the effects can clearly be seen.
Each rocket weighs 535kg and contains tens of anti-personnel and anti-tank submunition and can cover 1 sqkm.
The MAF plans to get another regiment equipped with Astros later.
Now you can make some calculations,
each launcher - 4 rockets
18 launchers - 72 rockets.
To blanket an area of 644 sqkm - 9 salvoes needed.
When next regiment becomes operationally ready - 36 launchers.
To blanket an area of 644 sqkm - 5 salvoes needed.
First salvo to target - 2min.
Basically, your worst nightmare!
Originally posted by CX:
[b]Firstly: they did not buy an artillery saturation system to hit HDB flats!
second: having thus established that the system is capable of pinpoint accuracy in the Gulf War, why bother dispersing them over 1 square km???
wouldn't it make more sense to saturate and hit 10 or 100 square metres? an RV, a HQ or even infantry troops on the move.
[/b]
Originally posted by CX:with malaysia's introduction of ASTROS II
[b]Firstly: they did not buy an artillery saturation system to hit HDB flats!
second: having thus established that the system is capable of pinpoint accuracy in the Gulf War, why bother dispersing them over 1 square km???
wouldn't it make more sense to saturate and hit 10 or 100 square metres? an RV, a HQ or even infantry troops on the move.
[/b]
perhaps SAF did not test the survivalbility of HDB flats becoz...the results may be not what you would like to imagine it to be!Originally posted by tripwire:how could you compare the destructive power of a laser guided bomb of several thoudsand pounds against a submunition that carries less the 10kg of explosive, unguided and have no known penetration ability like the US bunker buster??
furthermore... very often the allies discovered that.. while the LGB did hit the target and on some occasion massively damage the building... the building superstructure continue to hold!!... it wasnt obliterated nor was it leveled down to the ground....
perhaps wat is lacking have been the absence of a field test of the HDB flats strength against an arty strike.. mayhaps one day the SAF might consider conducting such a test to determine the survivalbility of HDB flats in intense conflict...
finally... unlike LGBs that explode on impact... submunitions explode on proximity fuse... which makes hiding in the longkang a far more dangerous attempt then hidding in the HS of HDB flat where the external superstructure would take the blow from such an explosion....![]()
if you think its only 0.1kg of HE for each square meter...why bother to hide ..... maybe you can prove your theory and stand in the open field.Originally posted by tripwire:if my mathematics serve me well... 1km square is equal to 1,000,000 meter square....
the rocket weight 545kg.... after minus the propellent to fly so far.. and the superstructure and other sub structure of the rocket... the actual explosive carried by that rocket is equal to perhaps around 100kg at the very very very best estimate(probably far lower)...
100kg is equal to 100,000 grams... dividing this over an area of about 1,000,000 meter square...
assuming even distribution of explosive power....each meter square will recieve about 0.1 gram... of HE
at 0.1 gram per meter square.... i think my house match stick got more "fire power"![]()
assuming 64 bomblet carries a total of 100kg explosive... each bomblet carries less then 2 kg of HE... which is nearly impossible to take down a HDB flat...
a study by indian defense scientist noted that a submunition carrying at least 10kg HE is needed, to at least damage (not destroy) a concrete structure...
feel free to correct me if i am wrong...![]()
phueeey. . . HDB flats are for you to live in them. . . I won't mind living in a HDB flat with floor to ceiling glass panels even if the whole thing gos kaput in war timeOriginally posted by observe:perhaps SAF did not test the survivalbility of HDB flats becoz...the results may be not what you would like to imagine it to be!
If the field test results is disastrous, we have a massive panic in sg. Imagine, 90% live in them!!
The new HDB flats, even worst....with all those floor to ceiling glass panels....nice to look at.....bet these glass panels will shatter just from the sound waves of the explosions.
BTW, my calculations is just so show what could happen from this MLRS system, of couse in real situation you would also expect a whole range of projectiles coming in ... not just submunitions from MLRS but also 155mm shells from their G5 etc etc.
precisely....in the 1st place, I never say that HDB is the target, all i say was a system like that can blanket a 644sgm area with 9 salvoes!Originally posted by CX:aiya! so kiasee...
go dig a hole in a reservoir park and live there lah... sure safe one... except for the snakes, the mosquitoes and the occassional buaya...
if someone wants to blow up a few HDB flats, they'll always be able to find a way to do it no matter how strong u reinforce the structure.
the point is, with their limited firepower, they wouldn't waste it on hdb flats unless one goes stray... in which case, nothing can save u anyway!
hiya, not everyone got HS okay. I happen to be living in a block where we have common basement shelter shared by 8 blocks. Of course, its now a minimart....hopefully the proprieter can clear it in time when needed (hopefully leaving some essential stuffs like keropok etc). Even that's the case, it takes 4min to reach there from my front door, down the flights of stairs and to the shelter. That's normal time with no other human traffic, in emergency I can run but so will everyone else from the 8 blocks. And the entranceOriginally posted by tripwire:lastly... considering that it took over 100 second for the rocket to reach its destination... its within the SCDF's and SAF's ability to detect the rockets... sound the civil defence alarm and get as many singaporean into the HS for safety...
the effectiveness of this system against singapore HDB land will be limited over time as singaporeans gets more alerted and more ready to move into the HS at a moments warning...
its 0.1 GRAM not KG... kuku... cant even see properly...Originally posted by observe:if you think its only 0.1kg of HE for each square meter...why bother to hide ..... maybe you can prove your theory and stand in the open field.
I really don't know how much HE per sqm, so I play save and take cover.
Originally posted by observe:perhaps SAF did not test the survivalbility of HDB flats becoz...the results may be not what you would like to imagine it to be!
If the field test results is disastrous, we have a massive panic in sg. Imagine, 90% live in them!!if so, then it will only serve SAF and spur the peoples to demand spending even more on defense and perhaps even accepting the need for a first strike up north with little if any mercy at all to ensure the safety of their family...
The new HDB flats, even worst....with all those floor to ceiling glass panels....nice to look at.....bet these glass panels will shatter just from the sound waves of the explosions.very dramatic and would make good news reels around the world plus effective pychological impact on SAF troopers to push all the way in....with no mercy
BTW, my calculations is just so show what could happen from this MLRS system, of couse in real situation you would also expect a whole range of projectiles coming in ... not just submunitions from MLRS but also 155mm shells from their G5 etc etc.
nope... i am merely questioning the ability of a few thoudsand kilo TNT's explosive capability to demolish singapore's concrete jungle when it probably took far more TNT for a demolition expert to bring down a lone skyscrapper...Originally posted by observe:precisely....in the 1st place, I never say that HDB is the target, all i say was a system like that can blanket a 644sgm area with 9 salvoes!
Someone assume that the target was HDB blocks and goes on and on about how strong they are as though its like Fort Kno or was it stronger than WTC ...whatever.