MALAYSIA TEST THEIR MESSILE
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your flats spalling ceiling does not invalidate the strength of all HDB flats which are build with reinforced concrete...Originally posted by observe:what talking you.....the previous flat i stayed always got spalling ceiling problem! HDB block built with reinforce concrete....my foot!
I rather take my chances hiding in the lokang.
in fact... its because your previous flats have reinforced metal bars in its concrete that causes the spalling of the concrete when water seeps into it..
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Yah, i've seen the corroded metal bars...but i don't consider that kind of reinforcement good enough seeing how thin those metal bars.Originally posted by tripwire:your flats spalling ceiling does not invalidate the strength of all HDB flats which are build with reinforced concrete...
in fact... its because your previous flats have reinforced metal bars in its concrete that causes the spalling of the concrete when water seeps into it..
BTW, I have also been to the WTC (before it collapse)....there is really no comparison with the low quality HDB block that we have. The WTC was actually designed to take the impact of an aircraft, though they did not consider the gallons of fuel from the aircraft.
If you so strongly believe in the structure of the HDB block...well good luck to you!
Like I say, I'm taking my chances in the longkang! -
of course.... to each his choice... since you like longkang...Originally posted by observe:Yah, i've seen the corroded metal bars...but i don't consider that kind of reinforcement good enough seeing how thin those metal bars.
BTW, I have also been to the WTC (before it collapse)....there is really no comparison with the low quality HDB block that we have. The WTC was actually designed to take the impact of an aircraft, though they did not consider the gallons of fuel from the aircraft.
If you so strongly believe in the structure of the HDB block...well good luck to you!
Like I say, I'm taking my chances in the longkang!
but i heard that HDB flats can supposedly (or at least built) can withstand an earthquake of about richter scale 5 to 6....
secondly... i have heard also.. that the future HDB flats will also come with shock absorbers at the base of the flat.... to better withstand a conventional arti strike... -
oh... if you want to hide in the longkang... i would reccomend those covered longkang... i think safer...
alothough... those concrete isnt as strong as a HDB flat -
Would not count on the concrete structure of the HDB to withstand any artillery strikes, at least not from a "rain storm" of rockets from a battery of MRLS.
Even Saddam Hussein's hardened concrete shelters were blown open, when penetrated by a single laser guided bomb that got in via the vent shaft.
The HDB block will collapse like a stack of card, like the New York WTC, when the weight from the upper floors crashing down, caused a multiple downward pressure that fold the entire structure into itself.
Will HDB use concrete that are specially formulated for use in the storage of our SAF ammunition ?
What will be the cost impact to the buyers of HDB flats built with such special concrete ?
The only prospect of a safe HDB flat will be an inner bomb shelter, that is stacked one on top of the other, to serve each family unit.
The external building structure can crash down leaving the column of bomb shelters standing vertically skyward.
The next problem is for the SCDF to reach the bomb shelter on the Twentieth Floor, to bring the occupants down when the entire building structure is no longer existing. -
how could you compare the destructive power of a laser guided bomb of several thoudsand pounds against a submunition that carries less the 10kg of explosive, unguided and have no known penetration ability like the US bunker buster??Originally posted by Atobe:Would not count on the concrete structure of the HDB to withstand any artillery strikes, at least not from a "rain storm" of rockets from a battery of MRLS.
Even Saddam Hussein's hardened concrete shelters were blown open, when penetrated by a single laser guided bomb that got in via the vent shaft.
The HDB block will collapse like a stack of card, like the New York WTC, when the weight from the upper floors crashing down, caused a multiple downward pressure that fold the entire structure into itself.
Will HDB use concrete that are specially formulated for use in the storage of our SAF ammunition ?
What will be the cost impact to the buyers of HDB flats built with such special concrete ?
The only prospect of a safe HDB flat will be an inner bomb shelter, that is stacked one on top of the other, to serve each family unit.
The external building structure can crash down leaving the column of bomb shelters standing vertically skyward.
The next problem is for the SCDF to reach the bomb shelter on the Twentieth Floor, to bring the occupants down when the entire building structure is no longer existing.
furthermore... very often the allies discovered that.. while the LGB did hit the target and on some occasion massively damage the building... the building superstructure continue to hold!!... it wasnt obliterated nor was it leveled down to the ground....
perhaps wat is lacking have been the absence of a field test of the HDB flats strength against an arty strike.. mayhaps one day the SAF might consider conducting such a test to determine the survivalbility of HDB flats in intense conflict...
finally... unlike LGBs that explode on impact... submunitions explode on proximity fuse... which makes hiding in the longkang a far more dangerous attempt then hidding in the HS of HDB flat where the external superstructure would take the blow from such an explosion.... -
Atobe, I've heard of this inner bomb shelter, but I doubt it is meant for use in a situation when the rest of the building comes crashing down. It probably is meant for use when the rest of the building is cracking up BUT has not totally been destroyed yet. Also think about it, even if the shelters remain standing while the rest of the building falls, how do the people in the shelters get out?? The lower floors will be trapped by rubble and can't get out, the middle floors will have to crawl down the rubble and pray it does not collapse more, and the upper floors can only watch other climb down or jump and hope they don't break too many bones when they land!Originally posted by Atobe:Would not count on the concrete structure of the HDB to withstand any artillery strikes, at least not from a "rain storm" of rockets from a battery of MRLS.
Even Saddam Hussein's hardened concrete shelters were blown open, when penetrated by a single laser guided bomb that got in via the vent shaft.
The HDB block will collapse like a stack of card, like the New York WTC, when the weight from the upper floors crashing down, caused a multiple downward pressure that fold the entire structure into itself.
Will HDB use concrete that are specially formulated for use in the storage of our SAF ammunition ?
What will be the cost impact to the buyers of HDB flats built with such special concrete ?
The only prospect of a safe HDB flat will be an inner bomb shelter, that is stacked one on top of the other, to serve each family unit.
The external building structure can crash down leaving the column of bomb shelters standing vertically skyward.
The next problem is for the SCDF to reach the bomb shelter on the Twentieth Floor, to bring the occupants down when the entire building structure is no longer existing.
Currently, Singapore does not as yet have enough shelters for the whole population. I wonder if any stations along the new MRT line can be used as bomb shelter. It makes sense to strengthen them and then use them as shelters if they're underground.
And many of you will be mobolised even before the bombs and rockets start flying and falling so you don't have to worry about where to hide.
my two cents -
if my mathematics serve me well... 1km square is equal to 1,000,000 meter square....Originally posted by observe:Let me provide you the gist of the report at Utusan Malaysia...eventhough my Malay is now quite rusty due to lack of use.
The reports states that 24 SS60 and 24 SS80 live rockets were used and the launch was right on target which was 60km away. It took 117sec for the rockets to reach the target area. Since it was a sea target, the effects of the weapons cannot be seen. And it was only done this way because they is no live firing range long enough for this demonstartion. The army plans to get the SS30 (35km) range so that the next live firing can be conducted at Asahan and the effects can clearly be seen.
Each rocket weighs 535kg and contains tens of anti-personnel and anti-tank submunition and can cover 1 sqkm.
The MAF plans to get another regiment equipped with Astros later.
Now you can make some calculations,
each launcher - 4 rockets
18 launchers - 72 rockets.
To blanket an area of 644 sqkm - 9 salvoes needed.
When next regiment becomes operationally ready - 36 launchers.
To blanket an area of 644 sqkm - 5 salvoes needed.
First salvo to target - 2min.
Basically, your worst nightmare!
the rocket weight 545kg.... after minus the propellent to fly so far.. and the superstructure and other sub structure of the rocket... the actual explosive carried by that rocket is equal to perhaps around 100kg at the very very very best estimate(probably far lower)...
100kg is equal to 100,000 grams... dividing this over an area of about 1,000,000 meter square...
assuming even distribution of explosive power....each meter square will recieve about 0.1 gram... of HE
at 0.1 gram per meter square.... i think my house match stick got more "fire power"
assuming 64 bomblet carries a total of 100kg explosive... each bomblet carries less then 2 kg of HE... which is nearly impossible to take down a HDB flat...
a study by indian defense scientist noted that a submunition carrying at least 10kg HE is needed, to at least damage (not destroy) a concrete structure...
feel free to correct me if i am wrong... -
Firstly: they did not buy an artillery saturation system to hit HDB flats!
second: having thus established that the system is capable of pinpoint accuracy in the Gulf War, why bother dispersing them over 1 square km???
wouldn't it make more sense to saturate and hit 10 or 100 square metres? an RV, a HQ or even infantry troops on the move. -
Originally posted by CX:
[b]Firstly: they did not buy an artillery saturation system to hit HDB flats!
second: having thus established that the system is capable of pinpoint accuracy in the Gulf War, why bother dispersing them over 1 square km???
wouldn't it make more sense to saturate and hit 10 or 100 square metres? an RV, a HQ or even infantry troops on the move.
[/b] YEAH! FINALLY. . . SOMEONE WITH THE INTELLIGENCE TO REALISE THAT MLRS ARE NOT MEANT TO KNOCK DOWN HDB!
*clap**clap**clap**clap**clap**clap**clap**clap*
I think the astros are really meant for what their name suggests, 'artillery saturation'. Before the astros, M'sia lack sufficient arty to counter Singapore large numbers of 155mm arty, the introduction of the astros will force singapore planners to rethink the possibility of a rocket strike on the artillery guns. HQs and other command posts are worthwhile target for the MLRS too.
I think hitting infantry or other such targets will be a secondary consideration.
Lke someone mentioned bove, the idea of using MLRS is to saturate the whole area with many rockets, so that the chance of getting a hit is assured. If they intend to plaster a whole big area with the minimum number of rockets possible, why bother with the MLRS?
my two cents -
Originally posted by CX:
with malaysia's introduction of ASTROS II
[b]Firstly: they did not buy an artillery saturation system to hit HDB flats!
second: having thus established that the system is capable of pinpoint accuracy in the Gulf War, why bother dispersing them over 1 square km???
wouldn't it make more sense to saturate and hit 10 or 100 square metres? an RV, a HQ or even infantry troops on the move.
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in the region, i'm thinking, will singapore decide to introduce a similar capability like the MLRS? -
perhaps SAF did not test the survivalbility of HDB flats becoz...the results may be not what you would like to imagine it to be!Originally posted by tripwire:how could you compare the destructive power of a laser guided bomb of several thoudsand pounds against a submunition that carries less the 10kg of explosive, unguided and have no known penetration ability like the US bunker buster??
furthermore... very often the allies discovered that.. while the LGB did hit the target and on some occasion massively damage the building... the building superstructure continue to hold!!... it wasnt obliterated nor was it leveled down to the ground....
perhaps wat is lacking have been the absence of a field test of the HDB flats strength against an arty strike.. mayhaps one day the SAF might consider conducting such a test to determine the survivalbility of HDB flats in intense conflict...
finally... unlike LGBs that explode on impact... submunitions explode on proximity fuse... which makes hiding in the longkang a far more dangerous attempt then hidding in the HS of HDB flat where the external superstructure would take the blow from such an explosion....
If the field test results is disastrous, we have a massive panic in sg. Imagine, 90% live in them!!
The new HDB flats, even worst....with all those floor to ceiling glass panels....nice to look at.....bet these glass panels will shatter just from the sound waves of the explosions.
BTW, my calculations is just so show what could happen from this MLRS system, of couse in real situation you would also expect a whole range of projectiles coming in ... not just submunitions from MLRS but also 155mm shells from their G5 etc etc. -
if you think its only 0.1kg of HE for each square meter...why bother to hide ..... maybe you can prove your theory and stand in the open field.Originally posted by tripwire:if my mathematics serve me well... 1km square is equal to 1,000,000 meter square....
the rocket weight 545kg.... after minus the propellent to fly so far.. and the superstructure and other sub structure of the rocket... the actual explosive carried by that rocket is equal to perhaps around 100kg at the very very very best estimate(probably far lower)...
100kg is equal to 100,000 grams... dividing this over an area of about 1,000,000 meter square...
assuming even distribution of explosive power....each meter square will recieve about 0.1 gram... of HE
at 0.1 gram per meter square.... i think my house match stick got more "fire power"
assuming 64 bomblet carries a total of 100kg explosive... each bomblet carries less then 2 kg of HE... which is nearly impossible to take down a HDB flat...
a study by indian defense scientist noted that a submunition carrying at least 10kg HE is needed, to at least damage (not destroy) a concrete structure...
feel free to correct me if i am wrong...
I really don't know how much HE per sqm, so I play save and take cover. -
phueeey. . . HDB flats are for you to live in them. . . I won't mind living in a HDB flat with floor to ceiling glass panels even if the whole thing gos kaput in war timeOriginally posted by observe:perhaps SAF did not test the survivalbility of HDB flats becoz...the results may be not what you would like to imagine it to be!
If the field test results is disastrous, we have a massive panic in sg. Imagine, 90% live in them!!
The new HDB flats, even worst....with all those floor to ceiling glass panels....nice to look at.....bet these glass panels will shatter just from the sound waves of the explosions.
BTW, my calculations is just so show what could happen from this MLRS system, of couse in real situation you would also expect a whole range of projectiles coming in ... not just submunitions from MLRS but also 155mm shells from their G5 etc etc. -
aiya! so kiasee...
go dig a hole in a reservoir park and live there lah... sure safe one... except for the snakes, the mosquitoes and the occassional buaya...
if someone wants to blow up a few HDB flats, they'll always be able to find a way to do it no matter how strong u reinforce the structure.
the point is, with their limited firepower, they wouldn't waste it on hdb flats unless one goes stray... in which case, nothing can save u anyway! -
precisely....in the 1st place, I never say that HDB is the target, all i say was a system like that can blanket a 644sgm area with 9 salvoes!Originally posted by CX:aiya! so kiasee...
go dig a hole in a reservoir park and live there lah... sure safe one... except for the snakes, the mosquitoes and the occassional buaya...
if someone wants to blow up a few HDB flats, they'll always be able to find a way to do it no matter how strong u reinforce the structure.
the point is, with their limited firepower, they wouldn't waste it on hdb flats unless one goes stray... in which case, nothing can save u anyway!
Someone assume that the target was HDB blocks and goes on and on about how strong they are as though its like Fort Kno or was it stronger than WTC ...whatever. -
hiya, not everyone got HS okay. I happen to be living in a block where we have common basement shelter shared by 8 blocks. Of course, its now a minimart....hopefully the proprieter can clear it in time when needed (hopefully leaving some essential stuffs like keropok etc). Even that's the case, it takes 4min to reach there from my front door, down the flights of stairs and to the shelter. That's normal time with no other human traffic, in emergency I can run but so will everyone else from the 8 blocks. And the entranceOriginally posted by tripwire:lastly... considering that it took over 100 second for the rocket to reach its destination... its within the SCDF's and SAF's ability to detect the rockets... sound the civil defence alarm and get as many singaporean into the HS for safety...
the effectiveness of this system against singapore HDB land will be limited over time as singaporeans gets more alerted and more ready to move into the HS at a moments warning...
only allow 1 person in at a time.
In normal case, you wil not be at the door waiting......you will do your normal routine activity right ....like pangsai, sleeping, or having some 'fun' with your partner. When siren goes, hopefully you can have enuf time to get your 'bro' to standdown so that you don't injure yourself when you zip up.
All this, definitely more than 100sec man....what talking you. -
A battery of MRLS system can be quite powerful, and in a densely packed populated urban environment such as Singapore, it can wreck havoc and cause widespread panic.
The explosive effects of a single bomb with explosives of 3 kg warhead (not 0.1gm per sq meter as suggested by “tripwire”) can be quite devastating, if he has any understanding to the effects of the explosive.
When HE ammunition explodes it causes a chemical blast effect, heat, expanding air pressure, vacuum, and a subsequent imploding air pressure.
When the chemical blast and heat do not affect the concrete structures of our HDB flat, the multiplier effect (of expanding air pressure, and the vacuum caused by the sudden dissipation of air from the blast center point, and the sudden return of air back to the vacuum point will cause an inward returning air pressure) can cause harmful effects to our HDB flats.
Bearing in mind that the HDB flats are not entirely made of concrete, which is only used for its columns beams and load bearing walls only, with the remaining walls being built from hollow cement bricks – which WILL NOT be able to withstand the subsequent pressures from an explosive effects.
In the US Embassy bombings in Beirut and subsequently in Nairobi (?), a truck bomb that exploded outside each of the Embassy building, brought down the entire frontal structures that faced the full blast of the truck bombs.
When a multiple explosion form a salvo of MRLS rockets is to fall into a neighborhood of several blocks of HDB flats, the enclosed areas will be ideal in multiplying the pressures of the multiple explosive effects of the salvo.
The block that has all the salvos falling around it, will suffer the greatest damage.
The hollow cement brick wall can hardly hold back the full force of a falling rocket bomb from penetrating its wall.
With a rocket bomb exploding inside the flat, and also the remaining salvos falling outside the block, the devastation can only be more assured.
Try reading the effects of explosive power at the following site:
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosive_material -
its 0.1 GRAM not KG... kuku... cant even see properly...Originally posted by observe:if you think its only 0.1kg of HE for each square meter...why bother to hide ..... maybe you can prove your theory and stand in the open field.
I really don't know how much HE per sqm, so I play save and take cover.
and i did it for calculation purpose... to show that one rocket is definitely unable to wipe out a 1km square of living things with so many concrete structures around...
as for standing in the open field... there is no need... cos.. after a rocket hit... i am very sure.. you will still see many people walking around...within that 1 KM square
at the same time... the uneven distribution of the submunition would imply some parts of the 1KM will be hit harder then others... which may suffer totally no damage... so ... wherefore the idea that singapore could be totally hit out by a few salvos of rocket?? -
Originally posted by observe:perhaps SAF did not test the survivalbility of HDB flats becoz...the results may be not what you would like to imagine it to be!
If the field test results is disastrous, we have a massive panic in sg. Imagine, 90% live in them!!
if so, then it will only serve SAF and spur the peoples to demand spending even more on defense and perhaps even accepting the need for a first strike up north with little if any mercy at all to ensure the safety of their family...
The new HDB flats, even worst....with all those floor to ceiling glass panels....nice to look at.....bet these glass panels will shatter just from the sound waves of the explosions. very dramatic and would make good news reels around the world plus effective pychological impact on SAF troopers to push all the way in....with no mercy
BTW, my calculations is just so show what could happen from this MLRS system, of couse in real situation you would also expect a whole range of projectiles coming in ... not just submunitions from MLRS but also 155mm shells from their G5 etc etc. no doubt about it... thus reinforcing the need for SAF to bring out its biggest weapons on the very first day... and move all the way in... and since malaysia got weapon of such range... i think stopping at mersing line.. has become a stupid idea... -
nope... i am merely questioning the ability of a few thoudsand kilo TNT's explosive capability to demolish singapore's concrete jungle when it probably took far more TNT for a demolition expert to bring down a lone skyscrapper...Originally posted by observe:precisely....in the 1st place, I never say that HDB is the target, all i say was a system like that can blanket a 644sgm area with 9 salvoes!
Someone assume that the target was HDB blocks and goes on and on about how strong they are as though its like Fort Kno or was it stronger than WTC ...whatever. -
just a question:
is it possible that the US sells Tomahawk cruise missiles to Singapore? it is a very very good missile but also very very expensive. what other countries besides the US uses tomahawk? -
i feel that if everyone thinks ASTRO2 is so damned good... without first checking its real data... the more technical part of course...its really really hilarious to go around proclaiming doomsday...
secondly... assuming that perhaps if ASTRO2 is as good as it is made out to convince.... i think perhaps singapore can also piggyback on malaysia and purchase hundreds of ASTRO2 launchers and tens of thoudsands of rockets to come with it...
then the balance would simply tipped back into singapore's favour.. and on top of that... singapore SAF would now on its salvo be able to hit up 90 km into malaysia from singapore or up to 300km if the cruise missile becomes available... whereas.. malaysia which already can hit all of singapore with G5 would not enjoy increased benefit of having a 90km range arti or rocket system...
and if we push it a little further... maybe we could get the chinese to sell us their latest MRLS with ranges that can fly across the taiwan strait!! that would enable us to even hit KL from singapore (i think) -
no offence, but it is ASTROS 2 not ASTRO 2..no such thing as ASTRO 2.
thats all -
another thing.
the ASTROS II is very impressive whether you are talking about the specs or looks
one more very important thing is,: it is a proven system that worked very very good.
I also read a book where it stated that the ASTROS II is equivalent to the US MLRS in terms of capabiliity..
one reason malaysia would like to get the ASTROS 2 even thought we already have G-5, is bcoz it can fire many at a time...unlike arty.
so in a short period of time. it can fire way more ammo than the conventional arty.
also, the astros2's rockets can be armed with different type of warheads...like chemical..and etc....
im not saying that m'sia wil ever use chemical weapons...