Apache down
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http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/middleeast/view/35611/1/.html
US confirms one Apache helicopter downed in Iraq
A US defence official on Monday confirmed that one US Apache Longbow helicopter was downed in Iraq, but had no comment on claims by Iraq that it had shot down a second helicopter.
The official was quoted as saying, "I can confirm that we have one helicopter down."
However he had no information on the fate of the two US pilots aboard the helicopter, which was shown on Iraqi television near the city of Kerbala, 110 km southwest of Baghdad.
Two helmets were shown at the scene but there was no sign of the crew.
Earlier Monday, Iraqi Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf had said that Iraqi farmers had shot down two US helicopters and promised "darker days" for US-led invaders.
The Minister said, "Farmers shot down two Apaches. We showed one today and
might show the second and the pilots."
He added that Sunday was a dark day for the invaders and that darker days were to come.
He also said that Iraq had captured other US and British prisoners of war. -
wah lau eh,
apache longbow lei!!!
think the pilots escape liao.
where's the CSAR? -
Seems like a Longbow Apache...judging from its Longbow Fire Control Radar...think the Coalition should rethink its strategies so that no further planes or helicopters are downed by them...
btw..what i say does not mean i'm trully support the US-led attacks...i'm strictly neutral -
i'm nuetral 2
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U.S. General Tommy Franks says fate of Apache crew unclear, personnel considered "missing in action." .
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lol, they're so happy with the chopper they downed. . . forgot that their troops are surrendering elsewhere and that the US still got enough choppers to kill each and everyone in the scene even if one chopper gets on of them. . . and I am beginning to find this rather contradictory. . .
By rights, what the reasons why civilians SHOULD NOT be shot at in times or war? Because they are only innocent bystanders rite? In this case, absurd as it sounds, Iraq itself has claimed that their 'farmers' shot down the choppers. . . does this then mean that Iraqi civilians are also taking an active part in the conflict? If that is the case, then i say that so-called 'civilian' targets can also be bombed since the civilians are taking hostile measures against US forces. ..
my two cents -
The civilians had better stay away from the helicoptor - it still has live ammo on it, and the US might just drop a LGB on it, to prevent its capture.
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the heli looks brand new to me. no damage or anything like that.
Unless the heli can be retrieved, they will CSAR have to destroy the heli with incendiary grenade.
SOP.
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Originally posted by laser51088:lol, they're so happy with the chopper they downed. . . forgot that their troops are surrendering elsewhere and that the US still got enough choppers to kill each and everyone in the scene even if one chopper gets on of them. . . and I am beginning to find this rather contradictory. . .
By rights, what the reasons why civilians SHOULD NOT be shot at in times or war? Because they are only innocent bystanders rite? In this case, absurd as it sounds, Iraq itself has claimed that their 'farmers' shot down the choppers. . . does this then mean that Iraqi civilians are also taking an active part in the conflict? If that is the case, then i say that so-called 'civilian' targets can also be bombed since the civilians are taking hostile measures against US forces. ..
my two cents
The rules of engagement states that....... -
OMG there are still hellfire missile and Hydra 70 rockets on it if I'm seeing correctly. . .Originally posted by Pressure-Forward: -
Geneva convention protects civilian in war , however when civilian take up arms , they will be considered as soldiers , militia etc which the convention do not protect when in action. Anyone with a weapon in war can be shoot discriminately at without any say.Originally posted by laser51088:lol, they're so happy with the chopper they downed. . . forgot that their troops are surrendering elsewhere and that the US still got enough choppers to kill each and everyone in the scene even if one chopper gets on of them. . . and I am beginning to find this rather contradictory. . .
By rights, what the reasons why civilians SHOULD NOT be shot at in times or war? Because they are only innocent bystanders rite? In this case, absurd as it sounds, Iraq itself has claimed that their 'farmers' shot down the choppers. . . does this then mean that Iraqi civilians are also taking an active part in the conflict? If that is the case, then i say that so-called 'civilian' targets can also be bombed since the civilians are taking hostile measures against US forces. ..
my two cents
If we are looking at the picture , US forces are onli allow to safely shoot at the man holding an AK but not the other civilians on the chopper.
Rules of engagement is different from the geneva convention as ROE varies in different countries and missions , however the geneva convention is an international law which by hook or crook all armed force have to follow or face the punishment.
Very often in civilise country , geneva convention rules are included in their ROE , but other country's ROE could including indiscriminate firing on sight. -
By right even if the civilian is holding a weapon, he or she is classfied hostile and therefore will be challenged and told to surrender their fire arms.Originally posted by foxtrout8:Geneva convention protects civilian in war , however when civilian take up arms , they will be considered as soldiers , militia etc which the convention do not protect when in action. Anyone with a weapon in war can be shoot discriminately at without any say.
If we are looking at the picture , US forces are onli allow to safely shoot at the man holding an AK but not the other civilians on the chopper.
Rules of engagement is different from the geneva convention as ROE varies in different countries and missions , however the geneva convention is an international law which by hook or crook all armed force have to follow or face the punishment.
Very often in civilise country , geneva convention rules are included in their ROE , but other country's ROE could including indiscriminate firing on sight.
At this point, the soldiers are not allowed to engage the civilian, and warning shots may be fired into the air.
Unless when fired upon, will only than the soldier be given green light to engage the civilian.
The soldier is strongly adviced to shoot lower limps so as to ensure the survivor of the enemy however should be judged on a case to case basis.
During war, no one gives a damn and think twice whether the person holding the weapon is hostile. They basically just fire at any person holding weapons.
While it is always a good thing to know friendly forces treat the POW in accordance to GC, do not expect the enemy to treat american POWs with care either. -
The movie Black Hawk Down is a good reference to see how GC law is carried out in combat. It may not tell the whole and accurate picture on GC for the civilians , but in the movie , there are shots showing american soldiers shooting at civilians once they pick up a weapon.Originally posted by Flight Cadet Officer:By right even if the civilian is holding a weapon, he or she is classfied hostile and therefore will be challenged and told to surrender their fire arms.
At this point, the soldiers are not allowed to engage the civilian, and warning shots may be fired into the air.
Unless when fired upon, will only than the soldier be given green light to engage the civilian.
The soldier is strongly adviced to shoot lower limps so as to ensure the survivor of the enemy however should be judged on a case to case basis.
During war, no one gives a damn and think twice whether the person holding the weapon is hostile. They basically just fire at any person holding weapons.
While it is always a good thing to know friendly forces treat the POW in accordance to GC, do not expect the enemy to treat american POWs with care either. -
N CENTRAL IRAQ, March 24 - With a hail of small arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades, Iraqi forces downed two Apache helicopters today and forced 30 other helicopters in their brigade back to their base.
One two-member crew was unaccounted for; the other was rescued. Iraqi state television broadcast images of one downed helicopter, which appeared largely intact, and jubilant men dancing around it.
All 32 helicopters sustained some damage, occasionally slight, Army officials said, in what was a significant setback for the allies.
The attack surprised American Army leaders and may cause them to rethink their military strategy, which relied on the Apaches to destroy Iraq's armored divisions that ring Baghdad.
The commander of the American-led invasion of Iraq confirmed the loss of one Apache helicopter.
``The fate of the crew is uncertain right now,'' Gen. Tommy R. Franks said at a news briefing at Central Command in Qatar. We characterize that crew, two men, as missing in action.''
General Franks denied that the helicopter had been shot down by farmers, as Iraq claimed, but did not say what had forced it out of the air.
A CNN correspondent accompanying the United States Army Fifth Corps 11th Attack Helicopter Regiment, said the unit had been on a night-time combat mission targeting units of the elite Republican Guard.
The correspondent cited one of the pilots as saying they had run into a ``hornet's nest, a barrage of antiaircraft fire,'' near the city of Kerbala, 70 miles southwest of Baghdad, the closest fighting to the Iraqi capital since the war began last Thursday.
The Iraqi Information Minister, Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, said at a news conference: ``Farmers shot down two Apaches. We showed one today and might show the second and the pilots.''
``We are holding several other American and British prisoners and we may show some of them,'' the minister said.
The Apaches use a powerful radar, called the Longbow, that directs their Hellfire missiles.
But the Apaches are suddenly coming under attack from relatively low-technology weaponry.
Saddam Hussein ``is fighting an asymmetrical warfare,'' said Brig. Gen. Benjamin Freakly, assistant commander of the 101st Division. ``This is not tank on tank fighting.''
The attack took place near the village of Abu Mustafe, north of Al Hillah, and capped a punishing 24 hours for the allied offensive.
General Freakly said that in an attack like the one on the helicopters, ``you have 10 guys lying on top of a building firing R.P.G.'s and small arms. You can go in and bomb that building and reduce it to rubble,'' but at the potential cost of many civilian lives.
The Army now may consider new tactics, such as additional close aerial bombardment, to support the Apaches as they hunt for armored divisions.
The Apaches were from the 11th Aviation Regiment, based in Germany, and are attached to the V Corps.
Sandstorms are roiling the area, blowing at 25 knots, and are likely to rise to 40 knots on Tuesday and Wednesday. At 30 knots, a meteorologist said, visibility becomes practically nil.
General Franks also said today that the tenacity of some Iraqi units, including the fedayeen, was no surprise and that American-led forces had had some ``terrific firefights.''
The Republican Guard has been hit, he said, and ``they will continue to be hit, at points and places and times that make sense to us. The effect has been very positive for us.''
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The copter doesn't look damaged at all. I wonder how a copter can be "shot down" and landed in one piece and still look undamaged.Originally posted by bcoy:The civilians had better stay away from the helicoptor - it still has live ammo on it, and the US might just drop a LGB on it, to prevent its capture.
My thoughts are that perhaps the crew had mechanical problems and have to make an emergency landing and were overpowered by local militias.
I still can't believe some farmers with AKs can shoot down an Apache. -
News report speculate that the Apache may have suffered mechanical or electrical failures, and made an emergency landing.
If electrical failure had occurred, it will probably explain the reason why home base was not alerted to their situation.
The Apache do not seem to have any bullet holes, and in any case the cockpit has a bullet proof shell that can withstand all small arms fire.
If it had been brought down by an anti-aircraft missile, that heli would have plenty of black burnt marks. -
sure it doesn't look damaged on the outside
maybe the pilots decide to go for a toilet break? maybe for some local food?
jokes aside, rsaf pilots, if you ever get into similar situations, how much faith would you have in our CSAR?
what's our CSAR copter? if there's any?
cougar? -
It would seem that the Apaches were shoot down by small arms fire.
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/24/sprj.irq.apache.attack/index.html
SOUTHERN IRAQ (CNN) -- U.S. Apache attack helicopters fought a fierce battle with units of Iraq's Republican Guard units early Monday about 96 kilometers (60 miles) south of Baghdad.
Iraqi TV showed video of what appeared to be a downed Apache helicopter, intact and upright, reporting that it went down near Karbala. Iraqi Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf said Iraqi villagers shot down two Apaches.
U.S. Central Command confirmed that one Apache is missing in Iraq but had no details on the crew or the reported second missing helicopter.
CNN's Karl Penhaul who was with helicopter regiment involved in the attack said the helicopters encountered a "heavy, heavy barrage" of anti-aircraft fire in the battle.
He could not immediately say whether all of the U.S. helicopters returned safely to their base at an airfield in northern Kuwait.
Most pilots said they were unable to achieve the objectives of the mission -- to hit the Republican Guard armored brigade, knock out its tanks and pierce its artillery. They spent a few hours in the air defending themselves and trying to get out of the area.
The attack force did not expect such strong resistance from what they thought were mostly civilian areas, Penhaul reported.
He added that pilots were "somewhat dazed, somewhat stunned" by the level of Iraqi resistance they encountered.
Some of the elements the Apaches tried to strike were Iraqi T-72 battle tanks, the most advanced tank used by the Iraqi forces. The Republican Guard was estimated to have at least 90 of those tanks, along with "multiple" pieces of field artillery and armored personnel carriers, Penhaul said.
The attack started after midnight (4 p.m. ET) and lasted about three hours, said Penhaul, who was aboard a Black Hawk helicopter that served as the command and control craft of a unit of Apache attack helicopters.
The helicopter in which Penhaul was riding was about 15-20 miles from the scene of the strike.
The Apache unit went up against the 2nd Armored Brigade of the Medina Division, which is part of the Republican Guard, the troops most loyal to Saddam Hussein, Penhaul said.
They also attacked positions between Karbala and Hillah, which straddle the Euphrates River south of Baghdad.
Narrow escape
Some of the U.S. aircraft flying in the mission reported taking fire.
One pilot described the situation as "a hornet's nest," as small arms fire and anti-aircraft fire came from "all sides."
Most pilots said they sustained 15 to 20 rounds.
One pilot said his helicopter was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade, which took out one of the engines, Penhaul reported.
He managed to fly back to the air base in Northern Kuwait, with one engine intact. At one stage, the pilot said, his aircraft dropped down 15-20 feet above an urban area before he could regain control.
Penhaul is embedded with the U.S. Army's V Corps, 11th Attack Helicopter Regiment.
EDITOR'S NOTE: This report was written in accordance with Pentagon ground rules allowing so-called embedded reporting, in which journalists join deployed troops. Among the rules accepted by all participating news organizations is an agreement not to disclose sensitive operational details. -
really sad to see a longbow apache go down like that.
pls send in the CSAR team now.
SEAL team 6? you copy? -
For black hawk down, its on a case to case basis. As the entire city of civilians are fighting against the deltas and rangers, any civilians who hold a firearm is deemed hostiled and may engage any moment.Originally posted by foxtrout8:The movie Black Hawk Down is a good reference to see how GC law is carried out in combat. It may not tell the whole and accurate picture on GC for the civilians , but in the movie , there are shots showing american soldiers shooting at civilians once they pick up a weapon. -
Guess Russia, south africa and others are already eyeing the longbow radar
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Military sgboy2004 -
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