DSTO : Decision on Fighter jets for RASF soon
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maybe boeing is developing a v4/5/6/7 radar in a few years time.Originally posted by duotiga83:the koerans radar is in v1 therefore can b upgraded to v3 near future which is possible, ours on the other hand is selected v3 radar as the proposal, would b diffcult to have another level of upgrade unless ST upgrade the eagles locally, to another level of AESA radar. as for f-15active, the demostrator plane, i would b surprise if ST Aero upgraded the F-15T (selected IF) to part active(wif carnards) with/or tvc engine to counter the Su-30MKM.
when you upgrade a plane, it doesnt just have to be the radar. -
i'm taking radar as an eg, u r saying upgrade to f-15active type is structural upgrade, i know there are many ways of upgrade i can't deny, but i dun c the eagle have any potential growth in upgrading it which ST Aero often tend to do wif our planes( deja vu of F-16ONE? which i most scared of if eagle is selected).
Frankly speaking, i hardly hear of RoKAF having their planes upgraded, the most is they bought another 'Blocks' of upgraded plane, which is totally different from our situation. -
You missed the point. Doesn't matter what aircraft we buy or don't buy, important is we get something that works and works to our advantage.Originally posted by NathanG5:yes i agree tat the JSF scheme is a bribe..but sayin tat eurofighter is a junk is too much...
i dun think paulho noes anything abt plane..he just trying to implement his own idea into others..sayin tat he is rite..n dun give a damn abt wat u guys says...good day
Would you yourself pay good 4-5k for a personal PC with top of the line graphics card, memory, state of the art CPU processor, large hardrive but whenever it runs crashes every now and then? I rest my case.
Likewise in this case why shud we pay US$70million for something mebbe it's not battle-tested yet but at least shud work but fails during trials.
The F-15 older aircraft from the 80's but it is battle proven, if it was crap would the US forces still rely on it even today, would the israeli's have used it as protection escorts for their F-16's when they bombed the Osiris in iraq bearing in mind at that time the F-16 was still a baby compared to the F-15?
The eurofighter may sport all the top of the line avionics - cool but it doesn't fly. if it is so wonderful how come the british no confidence to use it in this war theatre in iraq hmm?
Your opnions on the eurofighter may hold water bt my reservation is that I wouldn't want to depend on an aircraft that "maybe" works if ever there was a conflict in this region. -
Did you noe that your R-77 missle only able to manevour in a 12G preassure variance? Mebbe it out range the Amramm, cool but that's not everything in a dogfight.Originally posted by foxtrout8:About the missile , u shd know that the R-77 out range the Amraam and i believe the Derby .
The python-4 on other hand, mebbe shorter range abt 5.5km but with 120 degree look down radar and very fast, it is all aspect missle meaning it don't need to acquire the heat from the target exhaust tailpipe. the seeker head is highly resistant to counter measures uses up to 3 different wave band and can withstand up to 70G of preassure better than the american AIM-9M which only able to handle 35G.
Best of all there is a special sighting helmet which the pilot wears which can further guide the missle along to it's target.
Incidently I read this from a report that for the R-77 the russians have been having all sorts of design and production problems and Malaysia will be the first country to field it ... how come the russians not the first one to field it but the Malaysians? -
Because of one crash in eight year of development and u state that the Typhoon is unreliable??? I think this is a joke.Originally posted by paulho:You missed the point. Doesn't matter what aircraft we buy or don't buy, important is we get something that works and works to our advantage.
Would you yourself pay good 4-5k for a personal PC with top of the line graphics card, memory, state of the art CPU processor, large hardrive but whenever it runs crashes every now and then? I rest my case.
Likewise in this case why shud we pay US$70million for something mebbe it's not battle-tested yet but at least shud work but fails during trials.
The F-15 older aircraft from the 80's but it is battle proven, if it was crap would the US forces still rely on it even today, would the israeli's have used it as protection escorts for their F-16's when they bombed the Osiris in iraq bearing in mind at that time the F-16 was still a baby compared to the F-15?
The eurofighter may sport all the top of the line avionics - cool but it doesn't fly. if it is so wonderful how come the british no confidence to use it in this war theatre in iraq hmm?
Your opnions on the eurofighter may hold water bt my reservation is that I wouldn't want to depend on an aircraft that "maybe" works if ever there was a conflict in this region.
The fighter is going to replace our A-4SU , thus logic will tell u that the next fighter will be the cream of ATG. The F-15E/k/T do give a reasonable punch ,however will US release the equippment for us for that punch....? No , i dun think so. The next fighter i can think so which can Mud move is the Typhoon. A typical stike mission with 18 Brimstone , 4 Amraam and 2 Asraam can deliver hell to our enemy. Y not a mission with 2 storm shadows , 4 Amraam and 2 Asraam??? We can penerate Kuala Lumpur and Jakarta
My logic is not abt specs , but is that if we buy any fighter outside US ( maybe Rafale or SU-30 ) we are entitled to weapons classes which US will not be game to sell. Combat proven is not an important issue. Rafale and SU-30 isnt realli combat proven doesnt mean they are inferior to the F-15 because they havent have a fighting chance to prove themselves.
One havent have the chance to prove themselve , doesnt mean they dun have the capability to exel. SImple logic , think over it. -
Y tok abt Python when our F-16 will get it and maybe Asraam for EuroTyphoon...Originally posted by paulho:Did you noe that your R-77 missle only able to manevour in a 12G preassure variance? Mebbe it out range the Amramm, cool but that's not everything in a dogfight.
The python-4 on other hand, mebbe shorter range abt 5.5km but with 120 degree look down radar and very fast, it is all aspect missle meaning it don't need to acquire the heat from the target exhaust tailpipe. the seeker head is highly resistant to counter measures uses up to 3 different wave band and can withstand up to 70G of preassure better than the american AIM-9M which only able to handle 35G.
Best of all there is a special sighting helmet which the pilot wears which can further guide the missle along to it's target.
Incidently I read this from a report that for the R-77 the russians have been having all sorts of design and production problems and Malaysia will be the first country to field it ... how come the russians not the first one to field it but the Malaysians?
Y bother abt Gs when the R-77 are built to engage Amraam carrying aircraft first......
Y bother toking abt Amraam when it is still in US while malaysia have their R-77 ( rusting a not is another issue ) under their branket??
*disclaim> i didnt state that R-77 carrying aircraft will win Amraam carrying aircraft , i onli state that they are build to do so. -
you're are not comparing apple with apple.....the equivalent of python-4 is the russian R-73E. The equivalent of AMRAAM is the russian R-77.Originally posted by paulho:Did you noe that your R-77 missle only able to manevour in a 12G preassure variance? Mebbe it out range the Amramm, cool but that's not everything in a dogfight.
The python-4 on other hand, mebbe shorter range abt 5.5km but with 120 degree look down radar and very fast, it is all aspect missle meaning it don't need to acquire the heat from the target exhaust tailpipe. the seeker head is highly resistant to counter measures uses up to 3 different wave band and can withstand up to 70G of preassure better than the american AIM-9M which only able to handle 35G.
Best of all there is a special sighting helmet which the pilot wears which can further guide the missle along to it's target.
Incidently I read this from a report that for the R-77 the russians have been having all sorts of design and production problems and Malaysia will be the first country to field it ... how come the russians not the first one to field it but the Malaysians?
If you have read the Feb issue of the Asia-Pacific Defence Reporter, there is an article of the SU....somewhere in it the writer says that all computer simulated fights between SU-30 and F15 results in SU being victorious at bvr. He says that SU will be able to fire 2 R-77 first before the F15 can react. The standard tactic would be to fire 2 R-77, and then turn 90 degrees so that the SU will 'disapper' from the F15 doppler radar. This sim result unnerved the US pilots coz they effectively got no response to the SU at BVR.
Incidently, he also mentioned that similar tactic was practised by RMAF pilots against the RAAF pilots in their 'dogfights'. The result was RMAF sweeping the RAAF clean. -
Foxtrout8, The Typhoon is not designed in mind to be a ATG platform. It is designed primarily to be a fighter and thats where it will perform best. Substantial ATG capability on the Typhoon will come later and god knows when that will happen. I will go with the Rafale on the "best multirole" category.
Paulho, good arguments, but I have to question where did you get the information in "600 Pythons" for RSAF. It is not proven that RMAF "fields" R-77s as well. -
Typhoon is a multi-role fighter but primaried on ATA , no doubts abt that.Originally posted by EXCO:Foxtrout8, The Typhoon is not designed in mind to be a ATG platform. It is designed primarily to be a fighter and thats where it will perform best. Substantial ATG capability on the Typhoon will come later and god knows when that will happen. I will go with the Rafale on the "best multirole" category.
Paulho, good arguments, but I have to question where did you get the information in "600 Pythons" for RSAF. It is not proven that RMAF "fields" R-77s as well.
Can u find another 4th generation fighter with parellel payload as the the Typhoon on ATG ??? Thats y i say it is a cream of ATG which doesnt mean it is a ATG designed plane. -
The info on RMAF being the first R-77 user is quite old, read it from a journal last year on types equipment used by China Military, one section on missles mentions that RMAF will be first user for R-77. Incidently it also mentions that apart from china & chile, singapore also an operator for pythons.Originally posted by EXCO:Paulho, good arguments, but I have to question where did you get the information in "600 Pythons" for RSAF. It is not proven that RMAF "fields" R-77s as well. -
I think our F-16s shouldbe enough for multi-role missions. What we should get is a dedicated fighter to counter the SU.
BTW, Typhoon will ship with the Meteor BVRAAM, which has a range of 80nm more than the AIM-120. -
agree with observe,Originally posted by observe:you're are not comparing apple with apple.....the equivalent of python-4 is the russian R-73E. The equivalent of AMRAAM is the russian R-77.
If you have read the Feb issue of the Asia-Pacific Defence Reporter, there is an article of the SU....somewhere in it the writer says that all computer simulated fights between SU-30 and F15 results in SU being victorious at bvr. He says that SU will be able to fire 2 R-77 first before the F15 can react. The standard tactic would be to fire 2 R-77, and then turn 90 degrees so that the SU will 'disapper' from the F15 doppler radar. This sim result unnerved the US pilots coz they effectively got no response to the SU at BVR.
Incidently, he also mentioned that similar tactic was practised by RMAF pilots against the RAAF pilots in their 'dogfights'. The result was RMAF sweeping the RAAF clean.
the Python4 is a SR AAM, while the R-77 is a MR/LR AAM.
While it is not official that we have the python, it is official that Malaysia has the R-73- one of the best WVR/Dogfighting AAMs- not to mention that its coupled with HMS which they officially have. -
http://www.eurofighter.com/typhoon/superiorhome.asp
The comparisome of the Typhoon with other compeititing A/C and her mission payload. -
Foxtrout8, the source is the official website of Typhoon, I won't read too much into it. I am not saying Typhoon is not a good ATG platform, its just that it is not maximised for that capability as well as other fighters, namely F-16 and Rafale. The Typhoon "block" model as of now does not have a very good ATG suite and capability. Like I said, the block upgrade for the ATG will come later in the development cycle. When that will happen is anybody's guess. Until then I won't put Typhoon as "leading" in the ATG role.
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RMAF is widely reported to have R-77s, sources range from Russia, China and Malaysia. Problem is that no photographic proof has been presented. No one has seen the missile on a RMAF jet.Originally posted by paulho:The info on RMAF being the first R-77 user is quite old, read it from a journal last year on types equipment used by China Military, one section on missles mentions that RMAF will be first user for R-77. Incidently it also mentions that apart from china & chile, singapore also an operator for pythons.
The same goes to RSAF's Pythons. No photographic evidence, although it is widely accepted that RSAF is a user of the Python missile system. How you are going to interpret that I do not know. I seriously doubt the 600 Pythons comment as well. -
i suspect the RMAF are keeping the R-77 as a secret weapon.Originally posted by EXCO:RMAF is widely reported to have R-77s, sources range from Russia, China and Malaysia. Problem is that no photographic proof has been presented. No one has seen the missile on a RMAF jet.
The same goes to RSAF's Pythons. No photographic evidence, although it is widely accepted that RSAF is a user of the Python missile system. How you are going to interpret that I do not know. I seriously doubt the 600 Pythons comment as well.
so, if the weapon was secret, would they show it to you?
i dont think so. -
either their hiding it like we are with most of our weapons or it's hot air.......Originally posted by trainner:i suspect the RMAF are keeping the R-77 as a secret weapon.
so, if the weapon was secret, would they show it to you?
i dont think so. -
but how can u assume the new pc will crash?? u didnt even buy it n tested it yet?Originally posted by paulho:You missed the point. Doesn't matter what aircraft we buy or don't buy, important is we get something that works and works to our advantage.
Would you yourself pay good 4-5k for a personal PC with top of the line graphics card, memory, state of the art CPU processor, large hardrive but whenever it runs crashes every now and then? I rest my case.
Likewise in this case why shud we pay US$70million for something mebbe it's not battle-tested yet but at least shud work but fails during trials.
The F-15 older aircraft from the 80's but it is battle proven, if it was crap would the US forces still rely on it even today, would the israeli's have used it as protection escorts for their F-16's when they bombed the Osiris in iraq bearing in mind at that time the F-16 was still a baby compared to the F-15?
The eurofighter may sport all the top of the line avionics - cool but it doesn't fly. if it is so wonderful how come the british no confidence to use it in this war theatre in iraq hmm?
Your opnions on the eurofighter may hold water bt my reservation is that I wouldn't want to depend on an aircraft that "maybe" works if ever there was a conflict in this region.
didnt noe pc company will sell pc tat will crash easily n dun test it at all..i guess u noe something we dunno eh? -
I dun think it is secret. There are numerous info on the net stating that malaysia did do an upgrade to intergrated the R-77 onto their Fulcrum N.Originally posted by trainner:i suspect the RMAF are keeping the R-77 as a secret weapon.
so, if the weapon was secret, would they show it to you?
i dont think so. -
the upgrade to enable the intergration isnt secret.Originally posted by foxtrout8:I dun think it is secret. There are numerous info on the net stating that malaysia did do an upgrade to intergrated the R-77 onto their Fulcrum N.
but the acquisition of the R-77 missile might be secret. -
For that , im not sure . But if u are the Malaysian leader , will u agree on a multi-million ringgit missile upgrade without being ensured that u will get the missile??Originally posted by trainner:the upgrade to enable the intergration isnt secret.
but the acquisition of the R-77 missile might be secret. -
Well they did agree to a upgrade of their Skyhawks to fire Mavericks and never got the missile for the planes.Originally posted by foxtrout8:For that , im not sure . But if u are the Malaysian leader , will u agree on a multi-million ringgit missile upgrade without being ensured that u will get the missile??
So the move is not unpreceedented
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thats why im saying that i think the RMAF have the R-77Originally posted by foxtrout8:For that , im not sure . But if u are the Malaysian leader , will u agree on a multi-million ringgit missile upgrade without being ensured that u will get the missile??
the cost of upgrade is $34.4 million. -
But they've yet to show a R-77 live or inert round in public. And without trying to offend, based on previous episodes, the Malaysian government can't keep their purchases secret.Originally posted by trainner:thats why im saying that i think the RMAF have the R-77
the cost of upgrade is $34.4 million.
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why cant they keep it secret?Originally posted by Viper52:But they've yet to show a R-77 live or inert round in public. And without trying to offend, based on previous episodes, the Malaysian government can't keep their purchases secret.
based on what previous episodes?