Malaysia to get delivery PT-91-M Polish Tanks in 2006
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From ChannelNewsAsia
Malaysia to pay for Polish tanks with cash, goods
Malaysia said it would pay Poland for the supply of 48 attack tanks worth 1.4 billion ringgit (US$368 million) through cash and barter trade.
Malaysia's Defence Minister Najib Tun Razak said the PT-91-M tanks would arrive in Malaysia in batches over a one-year period from February 2006.
He said the deal included supplementary equipment such as recovery vehicles, training for some 150 military personnel in Poland and technology transfer.
Mr Najib said the main battle tanks would improve the firepower of the armed forces.
"Tanks give a shock treatment. They are important components in ground offensives. They give us the firepower and capability which we do not have in our inventory," he said.
Earlier, Malaysian defence ministry officials signed an agreement with Poland's FTE Bumar Ltd for the supply of the tanks.
Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad first announced the decision to buy Polish tanks during a visit to Warsaw in March, 2002.
Visiting Polish Defence Minister Jerzy Szmajdzinski said the sale of the tanks would boost the countries' economic and defence ties. -
From SpaceDaily
Poland-Malaysia to sign contract for 48 tanks
WARSAW (AFP) Apr 09, 2003
Poland and Malaysia are set on Friday to sign a contract for Poland to supply 48 tanks to Malaysia under a contract totalling 400 million dollars (372 million euros), the Polish defence ministry said on Wednesday.
"It involves 48 PT-91-M tanks with supplementary equipment and services, which will be provided by Poland up to 2006," defence ministry spokesman Eugeniusz Mleczak told AFP.
The contract will be signed on Poland's behalf in Kuala Lumpur by Roman Baczynski, the head of Bumar, the company which makes the tanks, and in the presence of Poland's Defence Minister Jerzy Szmajdzinski who heads to Malaysia on Thursday.
The contract will be Poland's biggest weapons deal since 1981 and Malaysia's first purchase of assault tanks, Mleczak said.
"Malaysia wants to use it to built its first armoured division," Mleczak said.
Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad first announced the decision to buy Polish tanks during a visit to Warsaw in March, 2002, but no details were given of the number involved.
At the time he suggested that Malaysia pay part of the cost with commodities.
Last year Poland also sold India an arms package, including tank systems and technical assistance vehicles, worth 147 million dollars and Mleczak said that Poland is also working on another "big" arms sales contract with India.
Poland's economy ministry says Poland could export between 1.5 billion and two billion dollars' worth of arms over the next two or three years. -
Exerpts from Warsaw Voice
Contracts With Malaysia and India
By L.¯.
20 February 2003
Polish companies stand the chance of earning more than $600 million by delivering military equipment to the Far East.
On his Far Eastern visit last week, Prime Minister Leszek Miller encouraged industrial cooperation between Poland and Singapore and India.
Tanks for Malaysia
In a $300-million contract, Poland will sell Malaysia 48 cutting-edge PT 91 M Twardy (Hard) tanks and technical support vehicles. The final agreements are expected in March, Miller said Feb. 16.
The Malaysian contract, if finalized, will be of great importance for Poland's tank manufacturers. The negotiations lasted many months. An important part of them applied to compensation that the Malaysians demand for the tanks and accompanying equipment they are ready to buy.
As part of the offset program, the Malaysians would want some of the tank and component production to be moved to Malaysia. The settlement for the arms deliveries would be made in cash and barter trade. As payment, Poland would accept palm oil and textiles that could be re-exported, among other products. In the future, the end assembly of the tanks could take place in Malaysia. Poland would also want to sell the Malaysians ammunition production technology.
Miller said that if the program succeeded, there was a chance to expand the Malaysian order to include further batches of equipment worth $200 million.
The Hard tank offered to Malaysia will be fitted with air-conditioning, a powerful 1,000-hp engine from PZL Wola and fire targeting systems from France's SAGEM company. -
... old news... we've talked that one to death already...
how's this one... 8 + 12 coming later... that makes 20 apaches... works out to two PT-91 each...
don't think mindef will sit back and wait while their edge is being eroded...Apache choppers to give armed forces an added edge
Straits Times APRIL 10, 2003 THU
DEPUTY Prime Minister and Defence Minister Tony Tan yesterday inaugurated Singapore's United States-based squadron of Apache attack helicopters, saying this would enhance the armed forces' ability to 'deal decisively with the security challenges'.
Getting a close look at a "tank buster", Deputy Prime Minister Tan is briefed by Major Suresh Navaratnam on the capabilities of the Apache Longbow attack helicopter. -- MINDEF
The Republic of Singapore Air Force's (RSAF) eight tank-busting Apache Longbow attack helicopters are based at the Peace Vanguard detachment in Fort Marana, Arizona.
In his speech at the inauguration ceremony, Dr Tan said it was important for like-minded nations to come together in the interest of security in these uncertain times.
Sizing up the emerging strategic landscape, he said 'catastrophic terrorism' had continued to be a threat to the world since the Sept 11, 2001 attacks in the US.
Significant security implications have also arisen from the events now playing out - the war in Iraq and North Korea's dangerous nuclear brinkmanship.
Given this backdrop, he said, 'it is important that like-minded countries cooperate to enhance our common security'.
In this context, he mentioned the 'excellent' relations between Singapore and the US and their 'close' defence ties, noting that these were based on 'many shared strategic interests, such as our common desire for security and stability in the Asia-Pacific region, and the importance we attach to upholding the freedom of navigation in sea and air lines of communication'.
Singapore, he stressed, believes that the US military presence is important for regional stability.
'We have therefore provided facilities to support that presence since the US bases in Subic and Clark were closed down.
'Today, significant numbers of US aircraft and ships call at or transit through Singapore.
'We are glad to have been able to make our contribution in support of the war against terrorism after Sept 11,' he said.
He also reiterated Singapore's support for the efforts of the US-led coalition in Iraq, pointing to Iraq's defiance of the United Nations and the 'grave' threat to the international order from weapons of mass destruction.
'We support the coalition's efforts for the immediate disarmament of Iraq,' he said.
During his six-day official visit, which kicked off on Sunday and was planned before the strikes on Iraq, Dr Tan is scheduled to meet Vice-President Dick Cheney, Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice. -
Apaches are not the only tank-busting helos. Fennecs are still good with their HeliTow system. The Spike-armed LSVs could also take a few pot shots. I'm sure the new light tank SAF will soon be getting will have a good gun to go with.Originally posted by CX: ... old news... we've talked that one to death already...
how's this one... 8 + 12 coming later... that makes 20 apaches... works out to two PT-91 each...
don't think mindef will sit back and wait while their edge is being eroded... -
double post
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http://www.bernama.com/B2002v2/news.shtml?general/ge1104_8
"These PT-91 battle tanks with additional features are needed by the army. These are the most modern tanks in the world as they have various sub-systems from European countries and suited to Malaysia," he said after witnessing the signing of the contract for the purchase of the tanks and support vehicles.
The PT-91M battle tanks, the letter "M" denoting the Malaysian series, are equipped with a new hunter-killer computer system, laser trigger, guided missile warning system, explosive reactive armour and protection from chemical and nuclear attack.
my favourite part:With the setting up of the Armour Brigade, Najib did not discount the possibility of Malaysia buying hundreds of battle tanks in the future.
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I begin to wonder whether singapore needs to buy some MBTs or not
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quote:
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>"These PT-91 battle tanks with additional features are needed by the army. These are the most modern tanks in the world as they have various sub-systems from European countries and suited to Malaysia," he said after witnessing the signing of the contract for the purchase of the tanks and support vehicles.<
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Innocent malaysia watever malaysia buys , they state as the most advanced in the world. So i dun think u shld be very happi to hear the next purchase listed as the most advance liao....
quote:
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The PT-91M battle tanks, the letter "M" denoting the Malaysian series, are equipped with a new hunter-killer computer system, laser trigger, guided missile warning system, explosive reactive armour and protection from chemical and nuclear attack.
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Relac lah buddy. We know that u are worry , however u must know that we have ATGM which are of the very advance anti-tank weapon , isnt guided by laser and are proven ERA penetrable. Abt the new hunter-killer system , i hope that the sights that the tank uses will be abt to sustain fragment bursts from air-bursting munitions.
quote:
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With the setting up of the Armour Brigade, Najib did not discount the possibility of Malaysia buying hundreds of battle tanks in the future.
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Ermm . Our defense minister nv discount the possibility of Singapore buying any few dozen of AttackHeli , couple hundreds of new light-tank and ermm did he annouce that we manufacture Spike Missiles in Singapore???
Peace.Peace.Peace. -
With the setting up of the Armour Brigade, Najib did not discount the possibility of Malaysia buying hundreds of battle tanks in the future.
Of course not! T'was a little addition made by the author of the article. Since Najib didn't say anything about getting more than 60 tanks, the author (henceforth refered to as 'The Idiot') had a wet dream about Malaysia purchasing hundreds of PT-91s and included that part in the article, so fellow idiots could fantasize over the thought of hundreds of MBTs rolling up and down the North-South Highway.
And Boy, let me ask you a question. Where in the freaking Dreamland of Coconuts is Malaysia going to find the MEN, yet alone the MONEY, to operate 100's of MBTs?I begin to wonder whether singapore needs to buy some MBTs or not
Relac brudder... unfortunately, a lot of the posters here are anti-MBT, and so am I to some extent (anti-WARPAC MBTs, to be precise). They think that the Apaches will be sufficent to handle any tank threat. IMHO, we need to achieve parity, if not superiority, in every area. That means matching them piece for piece, whether it be in MBTs, MLRS, or aircraft.
I think a new MBT is in order... unfortunately, most decent fifth generation western MBTs are above 60 tons in weight, with exception of LeClerc (56t) and K1 (51t)
Besides... if you choose to believe this Japanese academic, then Singapore has 600 Centurions... enough to bury even Thailand...
http://www.drc-jpn.org/AR-4E/toyama-e.htm
Poor man... got confused and thought we had ten times the number...
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Hey , the LeClerc damm freaking chio. I think Mindef shld consider.LoLX.Originally posted by Typhoon:exception of LeClerc (56t) and K1 (51t) |[/url]
Btw , i believe an overwhemming fleet of maybe 400 Advance LightTanks with considerable support from UAVs , LSVs , Apaches and our air elements will be enough.
The problem is ,when will Mindef annouce that we are purchasing light tanks. And wat is the capability of it??? Currently our Anti-tank capability is superb , they will have their tanks in 2006 , by then our new anti-tank capability will mature....................
so folks , dun worry. Astros are a more pressing problem. -
Aiya, the Japanese made a typo error lah. 60 Centurions is about the de-facto official figure we get, and is well published in defence journals. Tim Huxley also quoted this number.Originally posted by Typhoon:Relac brudder... unfortunately, a lot of the posters here are anti-MBT, and so am I to some extent (anti-WARPAC MBTs, to be precise). They think that the Apaches will be sufficent to handle any tank threat. IMHO, we need to achieve parity, if not superiority, in every area. That means matching them piece for piece, whether it be in MBTs, MLRS, or aircraft.
I think a new MBT is in order... unfortunately, most decent fifth generation western MBTs are above 60 tons in weight, with exception of LeClerc (56t) and K1 (51t)
Besides... if you choose to believe this Japanese academic, then Singapore has 600 Centurions... enough to bury even Thailand...
http://www.drc-jpn.org/AR-4E/toyama-e.htm
Poor man... got confused and thought we had ten times the number...[/url]
I tend to agree with you. SAF needs an MBT - not too heavy, not to many though. As I have said in other posts, Leclerc seems to be the ideal MBT in my opinion for our region. Not to heavy, not too big, 3 man crew with an advanced autoloader, good fire-control system, one of the most agile and fastest MBT, good armour, active and passive defensive aid suite, etc. Korean K1 is, IMO, only equivalent to a base M1 (with a 120mm gun). If SAF is to adopt K1, then we need quite a few assistance from the Israeli to help us improve the tank defensive aid including add-on armour and defensive aid suite, and a battlefield management system similar to that used in M1A2 and Mekarva 4 .
I also cannot stress enough that Singapore needs more than 20 attack helo. At least another 20 is needed to give SAF a distinctive edge for the near future. As I have proposed in other thread, the next 20 doesn't need to be Longbow Apaches or even Ah-64D. AH-1Z, A129 or the South African Roovialk would suffice. -
now i understand why mindef wanted USA to release the apaches in 2006 although they are due to release in 2009.
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I believe our Apache fleet will surely be more than 20 in the future. As 20 is simpily not enough. I believe it got to do with the allocation of defense funds for other project that we limit our Apaches to 20. The fleet will increase easily if every year 3% of the budget is allocated for the apache team , so must wait . ( something like the F-16s)Originally posted by Joe Black:.
I also cannot stress enough that Singapore needs more than 20 attack helo. At least another 20 is needed to give SAF a distinctive edge for the near future. As I have proposed in other thread, the next 20 doesn't need to be Longbow Apaches or even Ah-64D. AH-1Z, A129 or the South African Roovialk would suffice.
On other helis , i believe is not needed , as Apache is currently the best available. By obtaining a variety of helis will bring in logistic problems. I believe wat Mindef shld do is to reason with the US to allow us longbow radars for every helicopters. -
economy not doing too well now....with SARS etc...how can ask for more defense money.
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I wonder where the armour instructors for the MAF come from? All the best to them - afterall, they do have a disadvantage when facing the Thais in the North and us in the South, and they are converting from a counter-insurgency force to a conventional force.
We shouldn't be worried - we have operated armoured units for 30 years already. Experience contributed by our advisors.(foreign talents?). Anti-Tank capablity is of no issue here. I've read in other forums how some amatures compare the PT91M with the AMX13. In the South-East Asian context of jungle/urban terrain - tanks, in my opinion, will not see tank vs tank battles. You do not need a tank to kill another tank. Anybody who serve in the military before would know this clearly.
As for the Centurions - they have been around for some time, and will likely to be replaced. I'm not too sure about Mindef releasing details though. There is a lot of discussions going around other forums about tanks (MBT) operating in urban environments. I'm quite sure the foreign talents will share their experience.
ST has openly said that they are developing a new light tank based on the components from the Bionix. It would be nice if its shown during the next Asian Aerospace exhibition in 2004.
And the Apache, I think the numbers will grow to between 40-60 depending on manpower (pilots) and budget. -
The government plans for the longer term - the economy and SARs are short-term problems. The JSF program participation is a small example of long term defense commitments.Originally posted by observe:economy not doing too well now....with SARS etc...how can ask for more defense money. -
Actually I doubt Singapore has lost its edge over Malaysia as of yet. The tanks will be delivered in 2006. They will still need time to train crews in its use and tactics.
Singapore already has Apaches in its ownership, there are already 21 apache pilots certified mission capable since the last time there was news.
The PT-91 is a tank, the Apache is called a tank buster for a reason.
If Singapore decides to get more Apaches in future, the Apaches can probably be delivered and be put into use very fast, as long as they train enough pilots on the current ones.
But even if Apaches are bought Singapore still desperately needs a light tank replacement. Malaysia has hundreds of armoured fighting vehicles, i doubt these can be disabled by Singapore's own APCs, the AMX-13s are the one left with the job in the army's current orbat. (it'll be damn expensive to use apaches for everything)
the prob with anti-tank missiles is, if armoured vehicles are travelling in pairs or more, you are screwed big time after u fire your anti-tank missile, the vehicles left will get u, and even if u are facing on vehicle with an anti-tank vehicle, u better pray like nuts u hit it after u fire, cos ur position will be revealed. . .unless you are firing from an APC at another apc of course, but then you'd have to stick ur head out and fire, while the enemy is shooting at you. . .unless he hasn't spotted you yet, which would be unlikely given the built up areas and forest grounds in these region do not allow for very long range of sight. anti-tank missiles will only give infantry sections a CHANCE against AFVs, they should NOT be used as the main weapon against the AFVs, you'll lose an infantry section for every enemy AFV u get, assuming none of your missile miss. . .
basically, singapore still needs those light tanks. . . anti-tank missiles and small numbers of attack choppers are NOT the method to use against large numbers of AFVs
my two cents. . i happened to be wondering, 'okay, so you fire off an anti-tank missile, but what happens after that?' then i realised, you are the one screwed after u fire ur missile -
I agree with most of ur views except this part. Let say we fire the Spike 4kms away in a NLOS position , can u be spotted??? Even if spoted , can they engage u 4kms away??Originally posted by laser51088:the prob with anti-tank missiles is, if armoured vehicles are travelling in pairs or more, you are screwed big time after u fire your anti-tank missile, the vehicles left will get u, and even if u are facing on vehicle with an anti-tank vehicle, u better pray like nuts u hit it after u fire, cos ur position will be revealed. . .unless you are firing from an APC at another apc of course, but then you'd have to stick ur head out and fire, while the enemy is shooting at you. . .unless he hasn't spotted you yet, which would be unlikely given the built up areas and forest grounds in these region do not allow for very long range of sight. anti-tank missiles will only give infantry sections a CHANCE against AFVs, they should NOT be used as the main weapon against the AFVs, you'll lose an infantry section for every enemy AFV u get, assuming none of your missile miss. . .
Hmm , wat u said abt the tank retailation is right , but isnt it wat the Spike is build to counter that problem??? -
How often do u get a clear shot at an AFV 4km away? considering the malaysia's jungles, and built up cities, and singapore's totally urban environment. .Originally posted by foxtrout8:I agree with most of ur views except this part. Let say we fire the Spike 4kms away in a NLOS position , can u be spotted??? Even if spoted , can they engage u 4kms away??
Hmm , wat u said abt the tank retailation is right , but isnt it wat the Spike is build to counter that problem???
i'm not saying you will never get the chance, but most of the time, what u will get are smaller distances between troops and AFVs by the time u can get a shot at it
the 4km range is a statistic, operationally, what are your chances of getting off such a good shot? -
It actually works both ways. If you cannot get a clear shot, neither can your opponent. It goes down to tactics, strategy, numbers, who is the attacker/defender, positions, etc.Originally posted by laser51088:How often do u get a clear shot at an AFV 4km away? considering the malaysia's jungles, and built up cities, and singapore's totally urban environment. .
i'm not saying you will never get the chance, but most of the time, what u will get are smaller distances between troops and AFVs by the time u can get a shot at it
the 4km range is a statistic, operationally, what are your chances of getting off such a good shot?
I don't see Malaysia's armoured units operating in thick jungle, esp the MBT.
The lightly armoured wheeled APCs are used by their infantry units to move along the strategic north-south highway. -
they may be able to operate in the jungle, but it is going to slow them down like hell. so some may simply choose the highway instead.
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Yo bro, cash is king... And if thats the case, I guess Mindef would go and form a air assult brigade.Originally posted by Innocent_Malaysian: -
If they choose the highway, It makes the job even easier for the airforce. Just send a squardron of A-4 skyhawks to go after them with laser guided bombs and mavrick.Originally posted by CenturionMBT:they may be able to operate in the jungle, but it is going to slow them down like hell. so some may simply choose the highway instead. -
IMHO, I think we might be limited with 20 apaches. If we look at coutries like Israel, Egypt and UAE, they are only armed with about 40 apaches. Hence, if they these countries face armour in such huge numbers and only have 40 of them, malaysian armoured brigades would not be too much for Saf to handle. In addition, if we want to get the MAF's armoured vehicles out of the way, we still have the bionex 25 with the 25mm bushmaster cannonOriginally posted by foxtrout8:I believe our Apache fleet will surely be more than 20 in the future. As 20 is simpily not enough. I believe it got to do with the allocation of defense funds for other project that we limit our Apaches to 20. The fleet will increase easily if every year 3% of the budget is allocated for the apache team , so must wait . ( something like the F-16s)
On other helis , i believe is not needed , as Apache is currently the best available. By obtaining a variety of helis will bring in logistic problems. I believe wat Mindef shld do is to reason with the US to allow us longbow radars for every helicopters.