Ways to Counter Malaysia's MLRS??
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The key to countering MLRS is detecting them. There are two scenarios. The first is where Singapore is attacking. In this case, Singaporean intelligence agents (i.e. spies), special forces and technical intelligence assets (i.e. satellites, spy aircraft, ELINT, etc) would have pinpointed the positions of a majority of the MLRS already. You can bet that Singapore is working hard to find out exactly where they are at all times and we will only launch an attack if we are sure we can neutralize them. So in the opening phases of a war where Singapore is attacking preemptively, the MLRS along with other military targets like fuel depots, airbases, communications centres, etc will be attacked by special forces and airstrikes. In this case, Malaysia will only be able to fire a small number of MLRS before they are all destroyed, which is good.
The other case has Malaysia attacking first. In this case, the MLRS will reveal their positions when they fire. Once they are detected, they will probably be destroyed by fixed-wing strike aircraft, due to the urgency of the situation. In order for an airstrike to occur, enemy air defenses must be suppressed and interceptors shot down. In order to obtain the partial air superiority needed for limited airstrikes, around 1-2 hours of air ops are needed, before the strike wing can safely launch and strike the target. This means that Malaysia will be able to get off several waves of MLRS, which is bad, except that it makes Singapore look like the victim, which is good. The really bad thing is if they damage our airbases, preventing us from quickly counterattacking.
Which is more likely? It is an open secret that in any conflict between Singapore and Malaysia, Singapore has to attack preemptively to survive. Therefore, Malaysia's purchase of MLRS makes it even more imperative that we strike first. If we detect that the MLRS might be moving into firing positions, we might have to launch a war immediately to survive. This means that this purchase of MLRS is horribly destabilising to the region and brings the region close to war. It is not just their own throat they are slitting, but everyone else's too. What are they thinking? Are they thinking? -
No matter how pleasing it will sound, I think it is naive to think that Singapore will be able to "take-out" all of Msia's MLRS right at the start of any potential conflict.
The Msians are not dumb, in the event of heightened tension they will move (MLRSs are mobile) their high-value assets out of bases and then hide/dispersed them. When you watch GW2, the Iraqis are able to fire off some SSM missles and do you see the coalition towing/drive off mobile SSM lauch vehicles.
Even with recon and intel assets like the US, they are still not able to find all mobile launchers. What makes you think Singapore can do so with our assets.
I have no doubt that our RSAF strike a/c and the SOF can do the deed when called upon, but finding them will be difficult.
Actually MLRS by itself is not worrying. MBTs by itself also not worrying. I am concern that our potential adversary will hide these assets at the beginning of the conflict and force us to restrict our movements, then at the key moment, unleash a huge barrage of missles followed by a armoured thrust.
I think that is a more practical scenario. -
point taken -
As said before Malaysia it not an Open Dessert which means there are limited areas that can be used to Fire the MLRS....sure makes it easier to hide but when hidden you can fire.However like you said their attack capability is now seriously improved....now all they need is to know how to deploy and their new weapons will have effect.We shall have to wait and see what the SAF would doOriginally posted by spencer99:No matter how pleasing it will sound, I think it is naive to think that Singapore will be able to "take-out" all of Msia's MLRS right at the start of any potential conflict.
The Msians are not dumb, in the event of heightened tension they will move (MLRSs are mobile) their high-value assets out of bases and then hide/dispersed them. When you watch GW2, the Iraqis are able to fire off some SSM missles and do you see the coalition towing/drive off mobile SSM lauch vehicles.
Even with recon and intel assets like the US, they are still not able to find all mobile launchers. What makes you think Singapore can do so with our assets. -
Well....as discussed in an earlier post, the best way to counter the MLRS is to detect it early. So therefore, we have to have good HUMINT on the location of the ASTROs. A feasible way might be to just narrow down the areas of possible MLRS launch sites and send in special forces...have them operate 2-3 months at a stretch hunting ASTROs. Maybe provide air support if possible. ASTRO hunters man...
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not that hard actually as u mentioned... u just draw a circle around the maximum range of the rockets and u'll find that there really isn't much place where they can fire from...Originally posted by |-|05|:As said before Malaysia it not an Open Dessert which means there are limited areas that can be used to Fire the MLRS....sure makes it easier to hide but when hidden you can fire.However like you said their attack capability is now seriously improved....now all they need is to know how to deploy and their new weapons will have effect.We shall have to wait and see what the SAF would do
u subtract the marshlands, the swamps and the heavily forested areas and voila...
unless they decide to kill more civillians by firing from the cities, there aren't many places left where they can fire from...
minimum range is around 20 km and maximum range of the SS 80 rocket is 90km...
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/brazil/astros.htm
so if u draw circles around the map, u find that there isn't much air to cover to find those things...
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To dkhoo,
This means that this purchase of MLRS is horribly destabilising to the region and brings the region close to war. It is not just their own throat they are slitting, but everyone else's too. What are they thinking? Are they thinking?
Wow .. you really think that by the Malaysians buying the MLRS weapons it will destabilize the region? How about when we purchase JSFs, Apaches, Submarines etc?
So far, I consider all of Malaysia's arms purchases as a good way of selling palm oil -
To CX,
Nice Map .. but do you know the area that you have just highlighted to us is more than half of south johore? And do you know how many secondary roads there are?
There may be swamps but the palm oil estates have all got roads that go through them .. Are you sure that it is SO EASY to hunt for and eliminate all 18 MRLS launchers with the airforce that we currently have? -
considering malaysia's Airforce is almost totally deployed to the north.....yes.....but still it is not that easy to find themOriginally posted by kenhor:To CX,
Nice Map .. but do you know the area that you have just highlighted to us is more than half of south johore? And do you know how many secondary roads there are?
There may be swamps but the palm oil estates have all got roads that go through them .. Are you sure that it is SO EASY to hunt for and eliminate all 18 MRLS launchers with the airforce that we currently have? -
tats where forward defence strategy comes in..
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draw a line passing from east to west through keluang. thats kinda the MAX they could hide and still hit us.Originally posted by kenhor:To CX,
Nice Map .. but do you know the area that you have just highlighted to us is more than half of south johore? And do you know how many secondary roads there are?
There may be swamps but the palm oil estates have all got roads that go through them .. Are you sure that it is SO EASY to hunt for and eliminate all 18 MRLS launchers with the airforce that we currently have?
even if we apply the OLD strategy quoted by tim huxley, i.e. the mersing line, u'ld think that either air elements or ground troops would've long overrun the positions they're hiding in the course of a northern thrust.
even if we don't, and they do manage to get a round of rockets off, where are they gonna go to get resupplied after they've been cut off? i don't think their resupply vehicles store an infinite supply of rockets.
so there are 3 scenarios: (a)we overrun them, (b)we bypass them and they get cut off and (c)they manage to get away, in which case its not a big deal since any rockets they loose from north of mersing will almost certainly fall into somewhere in southern johor, and not singapore.
and of course people die in the course of a war... but its not as if they can kill every single soldier moving north with this "wonder weapon"... and they can't break our will to fight. they could try blowing up a few HDB flats (which they won't cos its a low value target! wouldn't they rather hit an airfield with the limited launchers they have!?) and see what happens when the bunch of pissed off uncles who used to live there put on their number-4... -
hmm... are the astros capable of using bio or mini nuke warheads? wHich warheads do they normally use? cluster munitions?
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its mostly cluster munition... and u can't use WMDs on such short range without killing yourself as well... not even saddam is stupid enough to do that...Originally posted by Moonstriker:hmm... are the astros capable of using bio or mini nuke warheads? wHich warheads do they normally use? cluster munitions?
gas maybe... but if it blows over to JB, ho boy... morbid... the germans tried that in WW 1... the chlorine blew over to their side... u probably never heard them scream "schisser" so loud before...
nukes? forget about it... the radiation will come down on KL and Jakarta in the form of a nuclear monsoon... no fun...
bio? please... they got problem trying to contain sars... u think they'll wanna spray germs on a location less than 2 km from their southern borders... right... didn't think they're THAT dumb...
but the original warheads probably gotta be quite heavily modified to do something so ridiculously dangerous that its just not worth it... -
even if we apply the OLD strategy quoted by tim huxley, i.e. the mersing line, u'ld think that either air elements or ground troops would've long overrun the positions they're hiding in the course of a northern thrust.
The Mersing line still works.....you people have to remember they have to park their MLRS outside the range out or arty meaning they have to be at least 40km from the frontlines......taking that away from the range the have that means the can only hit things at most 50km pass the front.....Mersing is some 80km from Singapore i believe?We still have a 30km buffer if that's the case! -
can somebody explain what this mersing line is? i newbie.
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Erm it's a defence line stretching from Mersing to the area near Muar i think.....the line that most estimate the army would aim for before stopping to see the overall situation and plan it's next moveOriginally posted by SingaporeMacross:can somebody explain what this mersing line is? i newbie. -
wha SAF got this type of tactics one ah
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Yesh..... It is to create a buffer zone to reduce chances of Singapore mainland being bombard by cheap conventional weapon , to reduce the chances of MAF to actually see Singapore and to capture key water and food sources if the war will to be long. But usually , i believe after capturing the land , Singapore or Malaysia would be calling for a crease fire and the war should be soon over..Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:wha SAF got this type of tactics one ah -
yes... i did forget about that aspect... so anything 30km off Sg is probably Astros free due to the arty blanket...Originally posted by |-|05|:The Mersing line still works.....you people have to remember they have to park their MLRS outside the range out or arty meaning they have to be at least 40km from the frontlines......taking that away from the range the have that means the can only hit things at most 50km pass the front.....Mersing is some 80km from Singapore i believe? We still have a 30km buffer if that's the case!
anything after keluang is out cos anything beyond that is probably outside the effective range of an SS-80 Astros rocket. my guess is that keluang is the furthest place up north where they can reach Sg.
anything between that space, is fair game
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Anything in between is malaysian.......Originally posted by CX:yes... i did forget about that aspect... so anything 30km off Sg is probably Astros free due to the arty blanket...
anything after keluang is out cos anything beyond that is probably outside the effective range of an SS-80 Astros rocket. my guess is that keluang is the furthest place up north where they can reach Sg.
anything between that space, is fair game -
thats ... not entirely true...Originally posted by CX:yes... i did forget about that aspect... so anything 30km off Sg is probably Astros free due to the arty blanket...
anything after keluang is out cos anything beyond that is probably outside the effective range of an SS-80 Astros rocket. my guess is that keluang is the furthest place up north where they can reach Sg.
anything between that space, is fair game
its highly probable that the MAF could shoot the astros within SAF arty range and then make a quick scoot before the SAF counter battery reaches them...
technically... in view of the fact that it will take SAF some time to detect... plot... order.. load... fire and additional time for the rounds to travel the distance to the enemy...
i sincerely believe that it is possible for the astros to fire within SAF arty blanket... furthermore... its also possible to scatter the astros 2 all over malaysia which will limit its lost in the event of a successful SAF counter move... either by HUMINT, SOF, CAS or even counter arty.....
thus.... personally... i wont even bother to delegate or even tied down any SAF resources to hunt down the MAF astros2...
In fact... i will concentrate on using all available military power to taking out MAF's pillars... CCCCI.... and key MAF units... like signals and supply depots
SAF would then muscle in and seek to occupy all key cities to be used as fortress and see if MAF would wanna fire its Astros at its own cities with thoudsands of malaysian citizen... -
It's possible for them to fire within singapore arty blanket, but not really safe at all and they have little launchers to risk or waste...
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frankly... they cant afford to loose much of anything.. since they arent able to produce most if any of their weapons themselves...Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:It's possible for them to fire within singapore arty blanket, but not really safe at all and they have little launchers to risk or waste...
their heavy dependency on foreign support for their local defense weapons platforms could only imply that any war that malaysia wanna start must first gained the blessing of foreigners.... -
And also hope their navy can keep open the sea lanes for resupplyOriginally posted by tripwire:frankly... they cant afford to loose much of anything.. since they arent able to produce most if any of their weapons themselves...
their heavy dependency on foreign support for their local defense weapons platforms could only imply that any war that malaysia wanna start must first gained the blessing of foreigners.... -
nay... that point of the arty blanket was made to supplement my previous point that even if they had superior range, it was STILL limited and the furthest they could probably fire from with SS80 rockets is a line drawn across from east to west from keluang...Originally posted by tripwire:thats ... not entirely true...
its highly probable that the MAF could shoot the astros within SAF arty range and then make a quick scoot before the SAF counter battery reaches them...
mersing is further north from keluang and if the old doctrine is still valid (aka "mersing line" as suggested by tim huxley), then it effectively gives Sg a very comfortable buffer zone to work from. if they decide to stay in the southern area of the peninsula, they would be cut off and overrun, or they'll run out of rockets in no time...
if they withdraw further north, they be shooting their own cities.
i did mention this in the previous post... u might've missed it.
the few rockets that do get off is just unfortunate... collateral damage works both ways... people die in war, soldiers or otherwise.
basically, the whole idea that an S-S rocket system is Sg's achilles heels is just full of holes if people just bother to think about it...